Increases in Baptisms, Missionary Applications, Numbers

[Calm]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am pretty sure that if I ever really want a release all I have to do is disclose my sexuality to a member of the Stake Presidency.

I think I only got released once where I didn’t ask to be released and that was to be called into the Primary Presidency.  If anyone wants to be released, nothing wrong with asking to be.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Two non rm and a lesbian is not a good business model for the church. 

It was a cliché in the Church where I grew up in the 60s and 70s that the worst kids in the ward would be the bishop’s.

True in a couple of wards I was in and not true in one iirc.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Calm

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I have a good friend who became bishop shortly after we moved out whose son was gay and didn’t go on a mission 20 years ago, the parents just got home from serving as mission presidents.  The son is still gay and still hasn’t gone on a mission.

Doesn’t seem to bother anyone.

Now that I think of it, my BIL who lives in Utah Valley has a kid who became an anti in his late teens, never went on a mission, and the dad still got called as a bishop and high councilman.

If they church only called bishops who had "perfect" families, it would quickly find itself without any bishops.

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Anyway, transplants seem to dislike how Utah LDS behave.

The drama of living somewhere where your neighbors are also your ward members took some getting used to (and there are some downsides to living in a place where the dominant culture is the church, one being that people who want to be "counterculture" choose opposition to the church as their primary way to do so), but I've mostly loved my Utah ward.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I am a transplant (Californian) and I have for the most part loved how Utah LDS act, which is why I married one.  My son, who was born in Utah, but has lived elsewhere since preschool loves Utah Saints as well.  Married one too.

Driving Utahns could take some lessons on civility, driving in the first snows, merging, etc.  And they need to kick out most of the DoT’s road planners, imo.

Good to know!

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Quote

Quote

This is Utah so anything less than cookie cutter perfection is unacceptable. 

I don't think this is a reasonable characterization for speculation. 

It isn’t speculation.

That sure seems like both speculation and characterization.  I live in Utah, and have for most of my life.  "{A}nything less than cookie cutter perfection is unacceptable" is an unfair and inaccurate caricature, and quite alien to my experience.  And since it's a generalization ("This is Utah..."), it's speculative, too.  

1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

This is my family member’s opinion and it is their family so they would know. 

So expectations about "cookie cutter perfection" a family thing?  Okay.  Elsewhere, many of the Latter-day Saints are more pragmatic and realistic about such things.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Diamondhands69]

42 minutes ago, smac97 said:

So expectations about "cookie cutter perfection" a family thing?  Okay.  Elsewhere, many of the Latter-day Saints are more pragmatic and realistic about such things.

Thanks,

-Smac

Yea everywhere else and everyone else other than this one ward, the church and members are more pragmatic.
 

My own ward is prob more mckonkie and Packer ish than their ward. We have some real hardliners around here. 

[smac97]

17 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Quote

So expectations about "cookie cutter perfection" a family thing?  Okay.  Elsewhere, many of the Latter-day Saints are more pragmatic and realistic about such things.

Yea everywhere else and everyone else other than this one ward, the church and members are more pragmatic.

I didn't say "everywhere else and everyone else."  I said: "Elsewhere, many Latter-day Saints..."

17 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

My own ward is prob more mckonkie and Packer ish than their ward. We have some real hardliners around here. 

The rigidly doctrinaire approach to the Restored Gospel is receding pretty quickly.  Look at the Brethren.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Diamondhands69]

16 minutes ago, smac97 said:

The rigidly doctrinaire approach to the Restored Gospel is receding pretty quickly.  Look at the Brethren.

Thanks,

-Smac

My ward has not received that memo. Another 20 years and all the hardliners will be dead.  That’s gonna be a long 20 yrs

[carbon dioxide]

8 hours ago, Teancum said:

The jump in full time missionary numbers is pretty amazing.  The jump in convert baptisms not so much.But I guess % wise they are close.  And my guess is retention is still dismal. And if one looks at converts as at least one ROI for missionary work 200k converts annually for $68k missionaries is also pretty dismal. 

There are different measures of what would constitute effective missionary service.  I think baptisms is just one aspect of it. If conversion is the main metric, the men in the scriptures that had trouble getting a lot of people to convert like Noah were not good missionaries.  Missionaries are there to provide access to people of the gospel.  For those who accept they get the blessings, those that reject they have increased their accountability to God so that a person can't say before God at judgment they did not have a chance or opportunity.  God will show them yes they did but they turned it away. 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

My ward has not received that memo. Another 20 years and all the hardliners will be dead.  That’s gonna be a long 20 yrs

What is the general location, if you don’t mind?  Also, slow turnover in members?  When was the last time you had boundary changes?

[Diamondhands69]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

What is the general location, if you don’t mind?  Also, slow turnover in members?  When was the last time you had boundary changes?

My ward it totally made up of just my neighborhood or housing subdivision. In fact the subdivision is divided pretty much in half and there are two wards. All homes are more than $600k. My ward has both young professionals (30-40s) and retired professionals (attorneys, drs engineers etc) aged about mid fifty’s to 70s. Lots of temple workers and people going on senior missions. Area is long time Mormon stronghold with lots of temples. Surnames in our ward widely recognized as Mormon names. 
 

let’s put it this way… in terms of hardliners. Our stake pres who is only mid fifty’s mandates all bishoprics, EQPs, HC and Stake Presidency to be clean shaven. He gets compliance 100%. How? Beats me but no one messes with it that I have seen.

the hardline attitude is going nowhere for a long time. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

My ward it totally made up of just my neighborhood or housing subdivision. In fact the subdivision is divided pretty much in half and there are two wards. All homes are more than $600k. My ward has both young professionals (30-40s) and retired professionals (attorneys, drs engineers etc) aged about mid fifty’s to 70s. Lots of temple workers and people going on senior missions. Area is long time Mormon stronghold with lots of temples. Surnames in our ward widely recognized as Mormon names. 
 

let’s put it this way… in terms of hardliners. Our stake pres who is only mid fifty’s mandates all bishoprics, EQPs, HC and Stake Presidency to be clean shaven. He gets compliance 100%. How? Beats me but no one messes with it that I have seen.

the hardline attitude is going nowhere for a long time. 

How "hardliner" are we talking?  Is anyone who doesn't shave guillotined?   

[Diamondhands69]

3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

How "hardliner" are we talking?  Is anyone who doesn't shave guillotined?   

Not real sure what you are asking. The kind of guy who probably worships his oppressive mission president and was an AP. Apparently they are all more scared of not being “obedient” than letting the beard grow. I know several people who have been extended those callings who were told they need to shave the goatee/beard or whatever and they say no way. Calling is withdrawn. The SP is looking for straight up robots who want to be David OMckay clones. 
 

 

[Tacenda]

13 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

My ward it totally made up of just my neighborhood or housing subdivision. In fact the subdivision is divided pretty much in half and there are two wards. All homes are more than $600k. My ward has both young professionals (30-40s) and retired professionals (attorneys, drs engineers etc) aged about mid fifty’s to 70s. Lots of temple workers and people going on senior missions. Area is long time Mormon stronghold with lots of temples. Surnames in our ward widely recognized as Mormon names. 
 

let’s put it this way… in terms of hardliners. Our stake pres who is only mid fifty’s mandates all bishoprics, EQPs, HC and Stake Presidency to be clean shaven. He gets compliance 100%. How? Beats me but no one messes with it that I have seen.

the hardline attitude is going nowhere for a long time. 

Sounds like several of my wards. Couldn't wear levi dresses or skirts in one. Couldn't have bare feet when home teachers visit, I never did anyway. No ladies' Bunko nights in my sister in law's stake. White shirts except for the rebels for Priesthood holders each Sunday. Clean shaven as well, but since covid, every guy is wearing a beard it seems. I wonder who that is going in your ward. Or ever since the political divide everyone is sporting beards.

I thought outside Utah, may be far different than in Utah and that's why I believe many transplants are shocked and want to turn around and leave. I have read different instances that transplants struggle to live here or those that are inactive or nonmember can't deal with Utah LDS and their children are left out in neighborhoods. 

[MustardSeed]

14 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

My ward has not received that memo. Another 20 years and all the hardliners will be dead.  That’s gonna be a long 20 yrs

Sounds simply dreadful.  

[Diamondhands69]

9 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Sounds simply dreadful.  

It could be worse. I don’t have any callings so two hr church is easy. 

[Diamondhands69]

50 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Or ever since the political divide everyone is sporting beards.

I thought outside Utah, may be far different than in Utah and that's why I believe many transplants are shocked and want to turn around and leave. I have read different instances that transplants struggle to live here or those that are inactive or nonmember can't deal with Utah LDS and their children are left out in neighborhoods. 

Political divide? If anything my ward is pretty one sided except for a few open liberals who are silent. We had lots of trump yard signs at one point. 
 

as for transplants moving to and then later leaving Utah yea I have seen that. I have some family that grew up there. Left for careers and thirty yrs later come back and they hate it. They hate having nearly every neighbor in their ward also be on their street. Can never get away. One family even went back to the east coast . 

[CA Steve]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

It was a cliché in the Church where I grew up in the 60s and 70s that the worst kids in the ward would be the bishop’s.

True in a couple of wards I was in and not true in one iirc.

I wonder how much of that stereotype was/is a result of how absent bishops were/are from their families? It would not surprise me that the time demands of being a bishop have an impact on their families.

I have lived in both Utah and California for decades at a time and in each state, I have seen a wide disparity in how local leadership runs at both a stake level and ward level.

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Not real sure what you are asking. The kind of guy who probably worships his oppressive mission president and was an AP. Apparently they are all more scared of not being “obedient” than letting the beard grow. I know several people who have been extended those callings who were told they need to shave the goatee/beard or whatever and they say no way. Calling is withdrawn. The SP is looking for straight up robots who want to be David OMckay clones. 
 

 

We had a stake president who was the same. He was an amazing man but had some real outdated ideas about facial hair.  When he was released one of his counselors was called (also a really amazing man) who did things very similarly. 

When my husband was called to be in a bishopric he specifically told them that he would not shave (and the bishop who asked for him knew this about him and told the stake presidency that he wanted him with the beard).  They were ok with it and he kept his beard for the whole time he served.

This was in Utah of course.  In other states we've lived in (like wyoming, montana, and north dakota) bishops and other leaders had beards all the time and no one thought anything about it.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Sounds like several of my wards. Couldn't wear levi dresses or skirts in one.

That's crazy. How did they enforce this?  Send sisters home from church who showed up in one?

[Kenngo1969]

10 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Not real sure what you are asking. The kind of guy who probably worships his oppressive mission president and was an AP. Apparently they are all more scared of not being “obedient” than letting the beard grow. I know several people who have been extended those callings who were told they need to shave the goatee/beard or whatever and they say no way. Calling is withdrawn. The SP is looking for straight up robots who want to be David OMckay clones. 
 

 

I'm not sure your fellow ward and stake members would recognize (or would appreciate) your (mis?)-characterization of their leaders, but, whatever blows your skirt up!  Carry on!  

[Diamondhands69]

12 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I'm not sure your fellow ward and stake members would recognize (or would appreciate) your (mis?)-characterization of their leaders, but, whatever blows your skirt up!  Carry on!  

I think they all realize the ones who shaved their beards or goatees for the calling are yes men. No doubt. The ones who didn’t…. Well apparently they don’t let a local bishop tell them to obey fake rules. 

Edited June 24, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

That's crazy. How did they enforce this?  Send sisters home from church who showed up in one?

That's all I wore sometimes with kids, haha. It definitely didn't last. 

[Tacenda]

10 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Not real sure what you are asking. The kind of guy who probably worships his oppressive mission president and was an AP. Apparently they are all more scared of not being “obedient” than letting the beard grow. I know several people who have been extended those callings who were told they need to shave the goatee/beard or whatever and they say no way. Calling is withdrawn. The SP is looking for straight up robots who want to be David OMckay clones. 
 

 

https://wheatandtares.org/2016/10/03/church-broke/