More on Horses

[The Nehor]

27 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Of course, we still have the 70% LDS Catawba tribe in North Carolina that still holds on to the promise in the Book of Mormon that natives will kill all white people who don't convert to Mormonism, and get their land back. Something to be giddy about, for sure.

Not just natives. Probably Hispanics too.

[Hamilton Porter]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Not just natives. Probably Hispanics too.

Yes, thanks for the reminder. As a matter of fact the Catawba woman they interviewed in Americanist Approaches to the Book of Mormon said those from South America will come up North and join them.

Don't know if you read it or not. Great volume.

[Meadowchik]

6 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Better impact arguing for their divine significance than the whitewashing done by non-Mormon of their divine insignificance, via Manifest Destiny.

Neither are as horrific as the decimation Europeans brought to the Americas through disease.

And yet neither cancels the other out. One certainly doesn't make another okay. 

Also, we don't require the Book of Mormon to argue for the divine "significance" of native American culture and history. It is valuable already. Human beings and their experience are valuable on their own, without others rewriting their stories.

[Hamilton Porter]

27 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

think you are being dismissive though of the extreme impact historical whitewashing has had on people the church identified as Lamanites

I don't dismiss anything on a personal level, but color me skeptical that people don't exaggerate its impact, like they do with that on LGBTQ suicides.

[Hamilton Porter]

14 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Better impact arguing for their divine significance than the whitewashing done by non-Mormon of their divine insignificance, via Manifest Destiny.

Good comparative analysis.

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Neither are as horrific as the decimation Europeans brought to the Americas through disease.

As horrific as this was it was (outside of a few cases of literal biological warfare) unintentional. Most of the nasty infectious diseases humans deal with are species jumpers and to get species jumpers with any kind of regularity you have to have domesticated animals. The comparative lack of good domesticated animals (and the lack of horses that makes some kinds of pastoral herding possible) is probably what kept the Europeans from getting decimated as well.

[Pyreaux]

17 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Neither are as horrific as the decimation Europeans brought to the Americas through disease.

And yet neither cancels the other out. One certainly doesn't make another okay. 

Also, we don't require the Book of Mormon to argue for the divine "significance" of native American culture and history. It is valuable already. Human beings and their experience are valuable on their own, without others rewriting their stories.

Just seems something so much less negatively impactful to say Lehi is your forefather, true or not, as it is for White converts speak of Abraham like he is our forefather, true or not. Certainly, intent matters, whatever unintended consequences of believing we are all one family brings.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Pyreaux

[mfbukowski]

Meh.

Edited April 14, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Pyreaux]

10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Since it is said that all Europeans are literal descendants of Charlemagne who lived around 1300 years ago,  it's not much of a stretch to think that all living humanity is descended from grandpa Abe

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/humans-are-all-more-closely-related-than-we-commonly-think/

Yet not close enough, it's still necessary to adopt Europeans unto Israel. We have more blood related ties to the enemies in the narrative than the subject, until the day we became baptized.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Yet not close enough, it's still necessary to adopt Europeans unto Israel. We have more blood related ties to the enemies in the narrative than the subject, until the day we became baptized.

So the two best methods of binding yourself to Israel are baptism and extensive inbreeding?

[Pyreaux]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So the two best methods of binding yourself to Israel are baptism and extensive inbreeding?

Apparently better than being descended of |34574|2|) Israelites, like Samaritans.

Excuse the crude 1337 Speak.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Pyreaux

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Yet not close enough, it's still necessary to adopt Europeans unto Israel

Yeah.

That waiting for the adoption to go through was pretty tough.  I was not too fond of my foster family either.

Where do you get this stuff?

[Meadowchik]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

As horrific as this was it was (outside of a few cases of literal biological warfare) unintentional. Most of the nasty infectious diseases humans deal with are species jumpers and to get species jumpers with any kind of regularity you have to have domesticated animals. The comparative lack of good domesticated animals (and the lack of horses that makes some kinds of pastoral herding possible) is probably what kept the Europeans from getting decimated as well.

Yes I agree it was the most part unintentional. From the perspective of loss however it's an extraordinary tragedy.  Which makes it all the more important to respect what real history they do have and can discover. 

[Pyreaux]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yeah.

That waiting for the adoption to go through was pretty tough.  I was not too fond of my foster family either.

Where do you get this stuff?

In order for the Lord God of Israel (and only Israel) to claim jurisdiction over any people from another nation is only by an adoption by the Lord.

I get this stuff from the Bible. Mosaic laws and poems in Deuteronomy about jurisdiction, and John the Baptist and Paul about how Gentiles becomes adopted as a descendant of Abraham, they aren't considered literal Israelites by anyone else's measure.

It doesn't harm us to praise our "Father" Abraham, forsaking our ancestors' pagan religions, with no regret that we gave up our heritage. Did we not give up something precious? Is it only a shame when Natives Americans become Christians and start losing their heritage? Converting anyone to Christianity is depriving everyone that isn't Jewish of their ancient culture... Unless its true.

[ksfisher]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The comparative lack of good domesticated animals (and the lack of horses that makes some kinds of pastoral herding possible) is probably what kept the Europeans from getting decimated as well.

I believe it’s the other way around.  Exposure to domestic animals allows a population to develop an immune system that is experienced and robust enough to deal with a wide variety of animal born viruses. 

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by ksfisher

[Hamilton Porter]

4 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I believe it’s the other way around.  Exposure to domestic animals allows a population to develop an immune system thst is experienced and robust enough to deal with a wide variety of animal born viruses. 

Yeah this was explained in Guns, Germs and Steel. Since there are no big animals in Latin America and Africa, they didn't gain immunity to them. Europeans did. The chapter starts off with some dude who mated with his goats.

[Dario_M]

1 minute ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Yeah this was explained in Guns, Germs and Steel. Since there are no big animals in Latin America and Africa, they didn't gain immunity to them. Europeans did. The chapter starts off with some dude who mated with his goats.

🤢

[LoudmouthMormon]

16 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Makes a far better impact arguing for their divine significance than the whitewashing done by non-Mormons of their divine insignificance, via Manifest Destiny.

Yeah, I know folks can pick through history books and find the occasional cherry-picked quote opining about the Native Americans being lesser in the eyes of God.  But the vast, vast majority of what was taught, thought about, and believed, just didn't follow that narrative.  You whitewash walls.  You don't need to whitewash a wall if you never see it or think about it or talk about it.

Boomers and older GenX will remember that taught history looked like this:

 

 

[CA Steve]

27 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Yeah, I know folks can pick through history books and find the occasional cherry-picked quote opining about the Native Americans being lesser in the eyes of God.  But the vast, vast majority of what was taught, thought about, and believed, just didn't follow that narrative.

Would that be the god that the Europeans brought with them or the one the Native Americans worshiped?

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

In order for the Lord God of Israel (and only Israel) to claim jurisdiction over any people from another nation is only by an adoption by the Lord.

I get this stuff from the Bible. Mosaic laws and poems in Deuteronomy about jurisdiction, and John the Baptist and Paul about how Gentiles becomes adopted as a descendant of Abraham, they aren't considered literal Israelites by anyone else's measure.

It doesn't harm us to praise our "Father" Abraham, forsaking our ancestors' pagan religions, with no regret that we gave up our heritage. Did we not give up something precious? Is it only a shame when Natives Americans become Christians and start losing their heritage? Converting anyone to Christianity is depriving everyone that isn't Jewish of their ancient culture... Unless its true.

So the need for historical correctness in a cultural context asserts that we must be part of an ancient culture even though it existed 3-4 thousand years ago; a culture we cannot even possibly understand today without presentism.

Good idea.

 

[Pyreaux]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

So the need for historical correctness in a cultural context asserts that we must be part of an ancient culture even though it existed 3-4 thousand years ago; a culture we cannot even possibly understand today without presentism.

Good idea.

That is how I see what Meadowchik is saying. I'm not exactly sure if you are picking up what I'm putting down, so FYI, I was being as sarcastic as you are being here.

Is it impossible that Europeans and Natives, by becoming Christian or Mormon, actually enriched their culture?

Edited April 15, 2023 by Pyreaux

[ksfisher]

7 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Yeah this was explained in Guns, Germs and Steel. Since there are no big animals in Latin America and Africa, they didn't gain immunity to them. Europeans did. The chapter starts off with some dude who mated with his goats.

The crudity seems unnecessary and sophomoric.  That aside, there are plenty of large animals in Latin America and Africa.  There plenty of large domestic animals in Africa.  The key point is the scarcity of new world domesticated animals.

[Hamilton Porter]

7 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

The crudity seems unnecessary and sophomoric.

Bring that up with Jared Diamond, not me. And with whoever gave him a Pulitzer.

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Bring that up with Jared Diamond, not me. And with whoever gave him a Pulitzer.

Jared Diamond didn’t write your post.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

23 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

aside, there are plenty of large animals in Latin America and Africa.  There plenty of large domestic animals in Africa.  The key point is the scarcity of new world domesticated animals.

Yes. And as pointed out in guns germs and steel, those animals were not suitable to be domesticated.