More on Horses

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

I find it helps

And that's why we all get our own testimonies in our own individual ways!

 

[Hamilton Porter]

53 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Then this should be pretty conclusive for you:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/native-americans-spread-horses-through-the-west-earlier-than-thought-180981912/

👍

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Jesus Christ either died for my sins or he didn't. 

For me, the question is, either my sins are forgiven or not, and only I can know that through the feelings in my heart.

It is about what the BELIEF does or does not do for me in adding meaning to my life.

Doing what we need to do to achieve that feeling ("repentance") is what matters, there need not be any external sources in the paradigm.  We are "saved by grace after all we can do ", one can say.  

The paradigm I accept for the mechanism of forgiveness is another matter, and I accept the Christian paradigm insofar as it is rational and psychologically sound in my opinion, (only because I am the one accepting it) and the idea that the man Jesus felt all that guilt and pain gives me solace in that one person has been there with me, AND OVERCAME IT.

By going UNDER, He OVERcame; and so  as a fellow human, in his image, I can do the SAME.

Edited April 11, 2023 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Do you worry about Bach's biography in evaluating his music?

No one has touched this.

To me, this is the crux of scripture as text, and the problem of historical belief.

[Teancum]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

We have been over it a hundred times. Read the Rorty quote in my siggy.  If you have honest questions this time, ask THEN. 

Yes I read it. Again.

 

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Postmodernism, roughly, is the opposite of positivism.  Remember the all the times we discussed "positivism is dead"?

Well I know that is your position and others. Is it everyone's?  I have not chased it enough to know.

 

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That's why the horses don't matter.

The paradigm you are pushing is a category mistake.

Would it matter if the BoM claimed that elves lived in ancient America when elves do not exist at all?

 

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Religion is about your purpose in life, not about the evolution of horses. 

Well of course.

 

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Parables are not scientific facts, nor is their value logically dependent on whether or not they are scientifically correct.

Is the BoM simply a parable or is it about real people that once existed? I like parables. I like lots of good books. I love The Lord of the Rings. I find great meaning in much of the book.  But I do not think it is about real people, places, things, etc.  I don't believe God gave the book the Tolkien.

 

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You don't need a statement of authenticity about the name and address including latitude and longitude of the location of the father in the prodigal son story to make the parable true and useful.

Of course.  Gandalf the wizard does not have to exist for me to find wisdom in the words Tolkien put in the character's mouth.

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The gospel of Jesus Christ is not about horses.

Of course not.

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It's not about that.

I'm not wasting more time.  I will be glad to answer honest questions. 

That's all your "humor" for today!

You know I love you dude! 

 

Thank you!  I know.

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

He said it's not gold standard, therefore, MORMONS AND KENNEWICK MAN.

Guy should stick to working with plants.

Yea pardon me if I dismiss your dismissiveness. 

[longview]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Do you worry about Bach's biography in evaluating his music?

No one has touched this.

To me, this is the crux of scripture as text, and the problem of historical belief.

I seems @Hamilton Porter did a pretty good job of responding to your line of thoughts. He is saying that religious history is very meaningful for prophets and other heroic characters that wade through much tribulations and serious testing. We see this in the life of Jacob (son of Isaac) where his whole life was a long series of progressions and challenges and seasoning. Same for Abraham and Jonah and even Mahonri Moriancumer (brother of Jared) and many others.

ALL of these things are REAL experiences intended for everyone that is born into a fallen world. Which is the essence of the Plan of Happiness. Very necessary to be able to advance beyond what we achieved in the pre-existence.

The scriptures (religious history) is extremely important for learning the testimonies of actual historical persons. It is an encouragement for the readers to exercise greater faith in applying incremental steps in drawing closer to God. For some it may require willingness to give up their lives in order to remain true to the Gospel.

We don't necessarily need to "worry" about Bach's biography for the purpose of evaluating his music. But information about his background, the mentors, the music of his "competitors" and cultural influences are interesting to scholars and lay people. The same holds true for eminent scientists who stand on the shoulders of giants that preceded them.

[Hamilton Porter]

59 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Is the BoM simply a parable or is it about real people that once existed? I like parables. I like lots of good books. I love The Lord of the Rings. I find great meaning in much of the book.  But I do not think it is about real people, places, things, etc. 

He already said it doesn't matter to him. Are you going to keep asking him?

Even made up stories are based on human experience. That's why you get lines such as "tale as old as time."

For example, in the Narrative of Zosimus, discovered after Joseph Smith died, someone left Jerusalem right before the Exile, did everything Lehi did, went to a "blessed land," where the Messiah appears to them. Even if Lehi never existed, that story is "true" to Fubowski, just with non-factual details that don't matter.

[Teancum]

Just now, Hamilton Porter said:

He already said it doesn't matter to him. Are you going to keep asking him?

Because he asked me to ask him honest question so I did.  If he doers not like my question he can say so.  He does not need you to do so.

 

 

Just now, Hamilton Porter said:

Even made up stories are based on human experience. That's why you get lines such as "tale as old as time."

Yes so?

Just now, Hamilton Porter said:

For example, in the Narrative of Zosimus, discovered after Joseph Smith died, someone left Jerusalem right before the Exile, did everything Lehi did, went to a "blessed land," where the Messiah appears to them. Even if Lehi never existed, that story is "true" to Fubowski, just with non-factual details that don't matter.

I understand that seems to be his position.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

...to FubowskI...

Really? Not endearing.

[Smiley McGee]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

No one has touched this.

To me, this is the crux of scripture as text, and the problem of historical belief.

You’re proposing something that is philosophically sound but clearly psychologically impossible for most people to accept. For whatever reason, that isn’t how humans justify belief. They want to debate Joseph Smith’s sexual proclivities and horses in the BoM because no one wants their religion to be associated with a philanderer and people need to believe that the stories they like really happened. 
 

Should bach’s personal life matter to the enjoyment of his music? What if you learned he frequently molested children? Would you then enthusiastically attend a concert showcasing his music? Would you be able to attend without denying that he was a pedophile? It should have no bearing on whether you find certain vibrations hitting your ears enjoyable, but it does, because no one wants to enjoy a pedophile’s music. 

[Hamilton Porter]

16 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

You’re proposing something that is philosophically sound but clearly psychologically impossible for most people to accept. For whatever reason, that isn’t how humans justify belief. They want to debate Joseph Smith’s sexual proclivities and horses in the BoM because no one wants their religion to be associated with a philanderer and people need to believe that the stories they like really happened. 
 

Should bach’s personal life matter to the enjoyment of his music? What if you learned he frequently molested children? Would you then enthusiastically attend a concert showcasing his music? Would you be able to attend without denying that he was a pedophile? It should have no bearing on whether you find certain vibrations hitting your ears enjoyable, but it does, because no one wants to enjoy a pedophile’s music. 

Michael Jackson is still GOAT. Makes no difference.

[Hamilton Porter]

King David, Noah, Jonah...heroes in the scriptures have stark imperfections. 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

You’re proposing something that is philosophically sound but clearly psychologically impossible for most people to accept.

That's fine, their children will and do understand such ideas. Our culture is now postmodern, it is unavoidable. The earth really does orbit the sun nowadays, and evolution is taught at BYU.

Blame it on Oprah. 

The church tells us to find our own testimonies in all things, and that is perfectly right, and we know what that means.  But if you tell people to find their own "truth", you suddenly turn evil.

I do not expect that most people will have philosophically sound ideas.

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/this-week-in-history-1948-robert-mitchum-is-busted-at-a-reefer-resort-in-los-angeles

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Smiley McGee]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That's fine, their children will and do understand such ideas.

Whose children are you talking about? Where is this generation that thinks historicity or Joseph Smith’s sex life isn’t critical to the truth claims of the LDS church? Surely you aren’t referring to the kids among whom the CES letter has gained traction…

Edited April 12, 2023 by Smiley McGee

[Dario_M]

On 4/10/2023 at 4:41 PM, PacMan said:

"[O]ur new temporal framework shows that horses were present across the plains long before any documented European presence in the Rockies or the central plains."

 

Whut? Everything always start with the Europeans right?? 

Did you guys know that you are actually also Europeans from a long long time ago??

[Teancum]

8 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Michael Jackson is still GOAT. Makes no difference.

Well I never liked his music but I think his actions do make a difference.  Another example. I am a huge cycling enthusiast.  I  picked up a bike in 2005 after I had cancer,  I was inspired by Lance Armstrong's book It's Not About the Bike.  Armstrong became a bit of a sports hero for me and that was a new thing.  As I road more I decided I would do a fund raising bike ride once a year and I would devote my efforts the the Lance Armstrong Foundation-now  the LIVESTRONG Foundation.  I raised at least $60k plus over a five or six year period.  I was a true believer in Armstrong to to the bitter end regarding the doing issue.  After it became painfully obvious to me that the man had cheated and lied I was very disappointed. Do I despise Armstrong?  Nope.  But I did stop fundraising for the foundation and diverted my efforts elsewhere. Did I stop riding a bike. Nope.  But my trust in those in the sport if bike racing is much less than it had been and while I still will watch some bike races they are not near as enjoyable for me as they used to be.

[Teancum]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That's fine, their children will and do understand such ideas. Our culture is now postmodern, it is unavoidable. The earth really does orbit the sun nowadays, and evolution is taught at BYU.

I think you are mistaken here. Gen Zers and millennials are the ones rejecting Mormonism in droves and mainly due to the history and the social positions of the church.  And also this group rejects organized religion in large  numbers and are politically liberal.

[LoudmouthMormon]

On 4/10/2023 at 10:13 PM, sunstoned said:

There was no horse culture in the Americas prior to the arrival of the Europeans. No art, no traditions, evidence at all. 

You do know you are in an LDS themed message board, right? There are some people who read the book of Mormon here…

 

[ksfisher]

6 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

You do know you are in an LDS themed message board, right? There are some people who read the book of Mormon here…

 

I think Sunstoned's observation is valid. 

What evidence for a horse culture is there in the Book of Mormon?  There's the word horse, but as Brant Gardner has observed the horses really don't do anything that we would associate with horses.

[Hamilton Porter]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

I think you are mistaken here. Gen Zers and millennials are the ones rejecting Mormonism in droves and mainly due to the history and the social positions of the church.  And also this group rejects organized religion in large  numbers and are politically liberal.

No it's not mainly due to church history. It's due mainly to LGBTQ issues.

[Teancum]

6 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

No it's not mainly due to church history. It's due mainly to LGBTQ issues.

I think it is both.  Regardless, it is a battle religions, especially conservative ones, are losing. Reason to celebrate.

[Hamilton Porter]

15 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I think it is both.  Regardless, it is a battle religions, especially conservative ones, are losing. Reason to celebrate.

I don't really care. Worldwide church is doing just fine.

[JAHS]

On 4/10/2023 at 8:41 AM, PacMan said:

"[O]ur new temporal framework shows that horses were present across the plains long before any documented European presence in the Rockies or the central plains."

I'd be interested in Ugo Perego or other geneticists chiming in on what the specific result do and do not mean for the Book of Mormon.  At face value, however, they appear positive.

Early dispersal of domestic horses into the Great Plains and northern Rockies | Science

According to the Far Side.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

I think you are mistaken here. Gen Zers and millennials are the ones rejecting Mormonism in droves and mainly due to the history and the social positions of the church.  And also this group rejects organized religion in large  numbers and are politically liberal.

I was  not speaking of "Mormonism", I was speaking of postmodernism which is already altering cultural understanding of positivist leaning members of the church, which is somewhat ironic, since people who want evidence do not believe in ghosts. 

THAT is the central contradiction of the thinking of church members leaving. They want factual EVIDENCE for God, and DUH, there ain't any!

So we need a theory of truth that does not involve factual evidence, which postmodernism provides .  Alma 32.!!

You are the perfect example of why people are leaving; forgive me but I think you are behind the times culturally and philosophically.

But the change in the culture is already happening. The church is growing internationally,  not in the US where the old attitudes are still entrenched.

Edited April 12, 2023 by mfbukowski