Martin Luther on polygamy

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

By that standard so are everyone else’s, so why are you here?

Took the words out of my mouth.

[mrmarklin]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

By that standard so are everyone else’s, so why are you here?

Do you also not believe?  All that particular poster does is posit how irrelevant our opinions are because there is no God. Seems a little silly. 

[Teancum]

15 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

If that one step is no actual revelation I can't ever do that.  I'd be lying.

No.  You would be being honest with yourself. Revelation....such a capricious subjective thing.  Pick your prophet.  Ignore all the others.  They all are making it all up. 

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

OK. You don’t believe. Know what?  Your opinions are meaningless.

My opinions are just as valid as yours buddy boy.

14 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

 

 

Why are you here?

 

Ummm um well this is a discussion board. I started here as a full believer and hobby apologist. But my integrity with apologetics led me out of the church. But still, I am interested in things LDS.  

Why are you here?  Maybe my opinions are more meaningful than yours. Who knows for sure?   

[Teancum]

13 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Really?

Yes. Really.

 

13 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

 

 

In a secular universe, I'd think the will of God to be the equivalent to the forces of nature. 

Ok.

13 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

 

Polygyny systems are present in many of the larger and advanced mammals (elephants, lions, gorillas) in choosing the more advanced males and increasing fitness and reproductive success of the best is highly advantageous for his progeny and their survival. If I was a highly successful male, and I said I felt some force in me that compels me to practice polygyny, I find it presumptuous to tell me there is no force that told me to, and that this force cannot be God.

Well if you want to equate your justification for polygyny to nature and that we are just beasts like the rest of the worlds creatures I am good with that.  That is quite a different argument than what is found for Mormonism's justification for men takin multiple wives.  So yea. human primates have evolved in a way that men are motivated to spread their genetics among multiple partners, and women more to have a stable nurturing male to protect her and her children.  But that is a much different argument than God says to do this to get the the highest heaven.  Thanks for helping to prove my point. Religious leaders who claim God tells them to do this are just pretending such to justify their multiple sexual partners because the society they live in has moved beyond the beastly evolutionary urges.

[Kenngo1969]

16 hours ago, Teancum said:

I am happy for you.  Better let your bishop know so he can boot our butt out of the church.  Or your SP.

Our butt?  So you're confessing, too?     Whoa, this thread is a trip, man!  

 Sorry!

 Couldn't resist!

Carry on!

[Navidad]

19 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Pretty presumptuous to claim to know that God didn't answer someone else's prayers with a revelation just because you disagree.

But then we all have to do that I suppose.  There's a LOT of falsely claimed revelation in the world.  Can't fault you for that I guess.

That's a very insightful reply. Lots to think about in it.

[Kenngo1969]

21 minutes ago, Teancum said:

My opinions are just as valid as yours buddy boy.

Ummm um well this is a discussion board. I started here as a full believer and hobby apologist. But my integrity with apologetics led me out of the church. But still, I am interested in things LDS.  

Nice backhanded slap at your interlocutors, there!  

[Teancum]

2 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Our butt?  So you're confessing, too?     Whoa, this thread is a trip, man!  

 Sorry!

 Couldn't resist!

Carry on!

You seem to rejoice in being the forum editor. Happy to make you day.  😁

[Teancum]

2 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Nice backhanded slap at your interlocutors, there!  

I work hard at it. 😉

[Pyreaux]

15 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Well if you want to equate your justification for polygyny to nature and that we are just beasts like the rest of the worlds creatures I am good with that.  That is quite a different argument than what is found for Mormonism's justification for men takin multiple wives.  So yea. human primates have evolved in a way that men are motivated to spread their genetics among multiple partners, and women more to have a stable nurturing male to protect her and her children.  But that is a much different argument than God says to do this to get the the highest heaven.  Thanks for helping to prove my point. Religious leaders who claim God tells them to do this are just pretending such to justify their multiple sexual partners because the society they live in has moved beyond the beastly evolutionary urges.

I was disproving your claim it is wrong, in a moral sense, but as someone whose supposedly sees matters without God. You say you agree, but end with another inference that it is morally wrong, like a person who believes in God who would say something "beastly" or "carnal" is wrong.

[Navidad]

Martin Luther was a man . . . in some ways he reminds me of the man in the Daniel Boone song! He struggled with a thousand weaknesses. He was no prophet; to my knowledge he never claimed to be. He leaned heavily on those around him who were better men. He had several visions. His life, writings, and talks inspired the founding of a new faith. He was intolerant of many, and quite opinionated in his beliefs and faith. Legends and folk tales grew up around him. He was misquoted and often the misquotes were better than the true ones! He was responsible for much pain and suffering in many people - some say even for many deaths. He was neither demon nor saint. He was a champion of the middle class and had no time for the peasant reformation going on at the same time. He was probably more like you and me than he was like Christ. I am not Lutheran, but I once preached in a Lutheran church! Sound like a Holiday Inn commercial?

Edited April 10, 2023 by Navidad

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

I was disproving your claim it is wrong, in a moral sense,

Well you failed.  You want to appeal to nature? I concede that. But nature is not God. And male elephants don't have mutiple female elephant partners because they think some god is telling them to do so to get to the highest reward some god has for them.

 

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

but as someone whose supposedly sees matters without God.

You appealed to nature to justify men having multiple sex partners, not me.

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

 

You say you agree, but end with another inference that it is morally wrong, like a person who believes in God who would say something "beastly" or "carnal" is wrong.

From a nature/natural standpoint I do not think it is wrong. Though human primates have established morals and ethics and rules that no other beasts have.  And that due to our more evolved brain and intellectual abilities. Human primates have are moving beyond their biological urges.  But then some so called prophet comes along and wants to have multiple sex partners.  And it is not just to spread their genetics. It is a control and power issue. And that so called prophet claims some god is telling them to do so. Oh sure. You bet. 

So my point is if consenting human primates want more than monogamy and they all are quite happy with it and agree to it more power to them.  But when some dude tries to coerce a woman into a such a relationship based on promises of exaltaio0n for her and her family, or giving the woman a 24 hour time frame to marry him or all is lost including exaltation, and then add the angel and flaming sword, well yea, this is all garbage.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Teancum

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

No.  You would be being honest with yourself. Revelation....such a capricious subjective thing.  Pick your prophet.  Ignore all the others.  They all are making it all up. 

Yes, and why is a prophet able to get revelation and members of the church that they're affiliated with, need them if we're able to get revelation ourselves? Especially when a prophet is wrong, then why aren't we going by the book when it says if they get it wrong, then that is suppose to mean they are a false prophet. But for some reason no one dares say, for instance, BY is a false prophet when he got it wrong? I am more than happy to listen to anyone share they're wisdom, feelings etc. But not so sure I need someone to tell me something comes from God when it may not. And when I'm told to follow someone, when sometimes they might lead me the wrong way. I will get kick back here, and will be told that we only believe a prophet when they are acting like a prophet, not when they are acting like a man. But I hear that in the recent general conference there is a talk or talks, that say differently. And how must that sound to our apologists that say what they do concerning prophets or men revealing prophecies. And how we're supposed to accept that they are mere men. 

[mrmarklin]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

My opinions are just as valid as yours buddy boy.

Ummm um well this is a discussion board. I started here as a full believer and hobby apologist. But my integrity with apologetics led me out of the church. But still, I am interested in things LDS.  

Why are you here?  Maybe my opinions are more meaningful than yours. Who knows for sure?   

This is a discussion board about religion.  Not atheism.  Hence your irrelevance to any discussion here.  Without any cogent argumentation, you put down people's opinions by merely stating there is no God.  What's the point of that?  What does it contribute to people who are honestly trying to understand events and doctrines?  Nothing.

Communists are atheists.  Go to one of their boards.  You will likely be very welcome!  You can get into heavy discussions about Pol Pot, Hitler et al about how to annihilate people and the various methods.  Which are better than others.....

Or why socialism in over a century of existence hasn't worked.  Lots of fields to plow.

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

This is a discussion board about religion.  Not atheism.  Hence your irrelevance to any discussion here.  Without any cogent argumentation, you put down people's opinions by merely stating there is no God.  What's the point of that?  What does it contribute to people who are honestly trying to understand events and doctrines?  Nothing.

Communists are atheists.  Go to one of their boards.  You will likely be very welcome!  You can get into heavy discussions about Pol Pot, Hitler et al about how to annihilate people and the various methods.  Which are better than others.....

Or why socialism in over a century of existence hasn't worked.  Lots of fields to plow.

Do you understand the meaning of socialism vs communism, they aren't the same. And if you abhor socialism, then you need to give up infrastructure, free healthcare for those that don't have it, clean water, heat, social security, free elementary education. I know that these things are gained by paying taxes, but you could live a life of being a peasant and not have control how those taxes are used, which sounds like communism, not socialism dude.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Tacenda

[mrmarklin]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Yes, and why is a prophet able to get revelation and members of the church that they're affiliated with, need them if we're able to get revelation ourselves? Especially when a prophet is wrong, then why aren't we going by the book when it says if they get it wrong, then that is suppose to mean they are a false prophet. But for some reason no one dares say, for instance, BY is a false prophet when he got it wrong? I am more than happy to listen to anyone share they're wisdom, feelings etc. But not so sure I need someone to tell me something comes from God when it may not. And when I'm told to follow someone, when sometimes they might lead me the wrong way. I will get kick back here, and will be told that we only believe a prophet when they are acting like a prophet, not when they are acting like a man. But I hear that in the recent general conference there is a talk or talks, that say differently. And how must that sound to our apologists that say what they do concerning prophets or men revealing prophecies. And how we're supposed to accept that they are mere men. 

They've always been men, subject to frailties.  God has allowed everyone to have direct revelation, but not all of us have the keys to authority.  Our job is to pray for our leaders, that they do the right thing.  We should also develop a testimony through revelation.  It's the only way to get one.  If you don't have that, I suggest you get one by prayer and doing the things God asks.  

I sense, like many on this board, you grew up in the church, did all the safe stuff, but never really developed an independent testimony of your own.  I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

You realize that even BY had to pray to get a testimony of multiple sealings, right?

[mrmarklin]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Do you understand the meaning of socialism vs communism, they aren't the same. And if you abhor socialism, then you need to give up infrastructure, free healthcare for those that don't have it, clean water, heat, social security, free elementary education. I know that these things are gained by paying taxes, but you could live a life of being a peasant and not have control how those taxes are used, which sounds like communism, not socialism dude.

I'm going to take the no politics admonition seriously here.  My rantings were just a suggestion of other fora.

[Tacenda]

14 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

I'm going to take the no politics admonition seriously here.  My rantings were just a suggestion of other fora.

This isn't politics, IMO. Just what it is. But I will leave it alone. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Tacenda

[The Nehor]

35 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

This is a discussion board about religion.  Not atheism.  Hence your irrelevance to any discussion here.  Without any cogent argumentation, you put down people's opinions by merely stating there is no God.  What's the point of that?  What does it contribute to people who are honestly trying to understand events and doctrines?  Nothing.

Communists are atheists.  Go to one of their boards.  You will likely be very welcome!  You can get into heavy discussions about Pol Pot, Hitler et al about how to annihilate people and the various methods.  Which are better than others.....

Or why socialism in over a century of existence hasn't worked.  Lots of fields to plow.

Ah yes, Hitler, well known lover of communism.

[Hamilton Porter]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

Martin Luther was a man . . . in some ways he reminds me of the man in the Daniel Boone song! He struggled with a thousand weaknesses. He was no prophet; to my knowledge he never claimed to be. He leaned heavily on those around him who were better men. He had several visions. His life, writings, and talks inspired the founding of a new faith. He was intolerant of many, and quite opinionated in his beliefs and faith. Legends and folk tales grew up around him. He was misquoted and often the misquotes were better than the true ones! He was responsible for much pain and suffering in many people - some say even for many deaths. He was neither demon nor saint. He was a champion of the middle class and had no time for the peasant reformation going on at the same time. He was probably more like you and me than he was like Christ. I am not Lutheran, but I once preached in a Lutheran church! Sound like a Holiday Inn commercial?

Thanks for the summary on Luther. He was misogynistic and anti-semitic. But no one can say he wasn't a serious student of the Bible (And he has no horse in the race since Mormons didn't exist yet.).

Michael Coogan, who wrote the volume on the Old Testament for Oxford's Very Short Introduction series, said this:

Quote

"So, with the authority of the Bible behind them, early Mormons argued for “plural marriage,” and some Mormon fundamentalist sects to practice polygyny. They were and are right: if the Bible provides authoritative models, then a man should be allowed to have more than one wife, as did Abraham, Jacob, David, and other biblical heroes, with no hint of divine disapproval.

 

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

This is a discussion board about religion.  Not atheism.

Yep. And I am not claiming it is discussion board about atheism.  It is about Mormonism.  Both pro and con.  And I am not an atheist.  Agnostic perhaps but not an atheist.

 

 

2 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

 

  Hence your irrelevance to any discussion here. 

Dude. You do not run this board.  Now as far as I know, are you a moderator. So why don't you just take a step back and relax a bit. I have been here for years and years and have thousands of posts.  You have less than 1000.  So sorry if I say that you can simply kiss off.  I am here because I want to discuss Mormonism and I am a critic now. The mods can boot me out if they want.  You, not so much. So essentially take a hike dude.  And get off your high and mighty horse.

 

2 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

 

 

Without any cogent argumentation, you put down people's opinions by merely stating there is no God.  What's the point of that?  What does it contribute to people who are honestly trying to understand events and doctrines?  Nothing.

Ummm no.  I make a lot of varying arguments. How about you deal with those instead of whining about why I am here.

 

2 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Communists are atheists. 

Good lord are you really this stupid?  There are a lot of atheists and non believers from all walks of life.  

 

2 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

 

Go to one of their boards. 

I have no desire to.  How about you go away?

2 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

 

You will likely be very welcome!  You can get into heavy discussions about Pol Pot, Hitler et al about how to annihilate people and the various methods.  Which are better than others.....

Or why socialism in over a century of existence hasn't worked.  Lots of fields to plow.

Yea whatever dude.  Again just kiss off.  Apparently your tender sensibilities cannot handle someone who challenges your beliefs.  

Edited April 10, 2023 by Teancum

[Calm]

4 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

This is a discussion board about religion. 

And an atheist (or agnostic) can discuss religion. It’s not that hard. Sometimes they are much better at it than a believer.
 

If the owner/moderator wanted Teancum gone, he has had a decade and more to do it in…and yet he hasn’t. Nemesis’ opinion on this is ultimately the only one that matters. 

Teancum is part of the board’s family.

My guess is if you continue to take it upon yourself to disinvite other posters, especially long term ones, it will be you getting disinvited by the one who can make it happen. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Calm

[blackstrap]

2 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

other biblical heroes, with no hint of divine disapproval.

This may be true in general but God specifically disapproved of particular marriages. 

[Pyreaux]

47 minutes ago, Calm said:

And an atheist (or agnostic) can discuss religion. It’s not that hard. Sometimes they are much better at it than a believer.
 

If the owner/moderator wanted Teancum gone, he has had a decade and more to do it in…and yet he hasn’t. Nemesis’ opinion on this is ultimately the only one that matters. 

Teancum is part of the board’s family.

My guess is if you continue to take it upon yourself to disinvite other posters, especially long term ones, it will be you getting disinvited by the one who can make it happen. 

Yes, listen to your forum mother, be nice to your forum brother, no matter who's annoying who, because if you two are still fighting when the forum father gets home, you might be the one fixing to get it.

... Or reframe it differently as a serious deep probing question if you want to know. "Why can one leave the church but can't leave it alone?" It's a big mystery. I know if I left the church, it's a part of me, I would probably copy much of it and try to apply it to another faith.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Pyreaux