The Widow's Mite Website and Church Finances

[CV75]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Any hypothetical can be used -- a coin ended up in a fish for tax purposes, so I suppose anything is possible. I was hoping someone would cite the references for how tithing and fast offerings procedures are managed procedurally from donor-to-disposition (I know there is one).

Whether or not it is a wise choice for the non-LDS to donate is entirely up to them; I don't think anyone is going to try to convince them to donate.

@MiserereNobis

"...fast offering funds are primarily available to the bishop to distribute to those in need in the area where they were collected, but that any excess (or deficiency) is shared with the rest of the church, first on a stake level, then on wider levels." Fast offering - Wikipedia This quote is taken from here: Encyclopedia of Mormonism - Encyclopedia of Mormonism - Digital Collections (byu.edu) (see pp 325-326). "Historically, fast offerings have seldom been sufficient to provide for all the welfare needs of the Church, and shortages have been met from general Church funds." 

So, it seems to me the notation at the bottom of the online donation slip ("All donations to the Church are free-will offerings and become the Church’s property. In furtherance of its overall mission, the Church may shift donations from any designated use to other uses, at its sole discretion.") allows that surplus in other designated categories supplement fast offering donations for welfare purposes. These other categories are: Tithe, General Missionary, Ward Missionary, Humanitarian Aid, and General Offerings. 

[Pyreaux]

2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

A few million could transform the lives of sexual abuse victims, providing funds for stable lifelong therapeutic support and supplementing income lost due to trauma.

A holy twin city of Zion or 100 temples would be grander, and aligns with the purpose of the fund. Building funds are spent on buildings. Charity comes from charity funds. If you want to dictate how the money is spent, you write that on the slip when you gave money to them. You can't take my money I gave them for buildings and after the fact demand they give it to charity. If you want more charity, you give your own to the charity funds, and that is where every penny will go.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

I said why I shared it. Something pogi said reminded me of it. And I don’t think it’s uncharitable at all to share that story. It might be if I were judging the bishop in any way. 

Yet your story unnecessarily casts the bishop and/or the Church as being hypocritical and uncharitable. Perhaps you could share a  story that shows a bishop or the Church in a positive light?  

I’m reminded of a friend, Matt Ciembronowicz, a wonderful affluent Latter-day Saint, who personally sponsored and assisted many, many Polish refugees coming to America during the Communist Terror. He also often assisted ward members without being asked.

 I know many examples of members give anonymous assistance and bishops who exhibit patient and charitable compassion to needy folks. 

Sure, charity is an attribute that many Christians display. Let’s not make the LDS look less. 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yet your story unnecessarily casts the bishop and/or the Church as being hypocritical and uncharitable. Perhaps you could share a  story that shows a bishop or the Church in a positive light?  

I’m reminded of a friend, Matt Ciembronowicz, a wonderful affluent Latter-day Saint, who personally sponsored and assisted many, many Polish refugees coming to America during the Communist Terror. He also often assisted ward members without being asked.

 I know many examples of members give anonymous assistance and bishops who exhibit patient and charitable compassion to needy folks. 

Sure, charity is an attribute that many Christians display. Let’s not make the LDS look less. 

I didn’t cast the bishop or the church as hypocritical or uncharitable. Only one person here has been called uncharitable. I have seen a lot of kindness and charity in the church. I’ve seen the opposite, too. That you think my friend’s story paints the whole church as less charitable, that is not my doing. 

[Bernard Gui]

33 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I didn’t cast the bishop or the church as hypocritical or uncharitable. Only one person here has been called uncharitable. I have seen a lot of kindness and charity in the church. I’ve seen the opposite, too. That you think my friend’s story paints the whole church as less charitable, that is not my doing. 

So there was really no point in telling it after all. Just for fun. 

Quote

"Once upon a time not long ago a good friend’s mother passed away. She had been a faithful believing, tithe paying member her entire life. At her funeral the bishop pulled out her last tithing envelope that she had asked her husband to turn in. This was her final testimony on tithing. The ward then asked the family to pay for the ham for her funeral luncheon because it was not in their budget."

Did you ask the bishop or your friend why?

Edited March 11, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Meadowchik]

45 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

A holy twin city of Zion or 100 temples would be grander, and aligns with the purpose of the fund. Building funds are spent on buildings. Charity comes from charity funds. If you want to dictate how the money is spent, you write that on the slip when you gave money to them. You can't take my money I gave them for buildings and after the fact demand they give it to charity. If you want more charity, you give your own to the charity funds, and that is where every penny will go.

I'm not talking about discretionary charity, but the church's moral obligation to sexual abuse victims of church leaders.

[Pyreaux]

29 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I'm not talking about discretionary charity, but the church's moral obligation to sexual abuse victims of church leaders.

Aren't moral obligations determined and settled through courts? Doing more seems discretionary.

[jkwilliams]

13 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Aren't moral obligations determined and settled through courts? Doing more seems discretionary.

You think we should rely on the courts to determine our moral obligations? 

[Pyreaux]

26 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

You think we should rely on the courts to determine our moral obligations? 

You should rely on the sober judgment of courts if you want the ruling to be impartial and fair. There is no grievance that is a fit object of redress by mob law.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

A few million could transform the lives of sexual abuse victims, providing funds for stable lifelong therapeutic support and supplementing income lost due to trauma.

And all the other folks with health issues, too?

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

You should rely on the sober judgment of courts if you want the ruling to be impartial and fair. There is no grievance that is a fit object of redress by mob law.

One would assume that church leaders are quite capable of judging their own moral obligations. No mob law needed. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

So, as a hypothetical, someone could donate to fast offerings and that money end up in EPA?

How could one vet fast offerings like one vets other charities (percent used for the charity, percent used for overhead, etc)? On the face of it it doesn't seem like one could, which makes donating to fast offering as a non-LDS not a wise donation.

The fast offerings slip is the same as all other donations, we used to write one check for all of our donations (tithing, fast offerings, missionary fund, and any other); now we make one payment online, so the funds are technically combined from the beginning and separated just by record keeping when using that process. We don’t have collections specifically for fast offerings in most wards.  In Utah (and maybe other places where there are a number of members living close together), a number of wards still have the option they used to use, which is deacons go door to door on Fast Sunday to collect Fast Offering donations, but even though our ward does this, we don’t use the service any more.  More on collection below….

Donation form:  https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-approves-online-tithing-donations

I believe the disclaimer at the bottom of the donation slip is added to allow for a donation not to have to remain unused if donated for a purpose that is already covered, such as the Temple Patron Fund and others that have been discontinued as funds because the needs are met another way now.  It also may be an issue of making it easier to transfer money out of or into a country if there is an excess or lack of funding.  And it could be about saving resources in lawsuits as someone can’t demand the Church prove their offerings or tithing was used a certain way.  
 

Basically it does come down to trust in choosing to believe leaders when they say fast offerings will only go into fast offerings funds, this is what happens…at least in the sense of the total donation amount as opposed to a specific dollar donated.  I don’t know how the ward finances work, just that donations get counted and get deposited Sunday night and Fast Offerings or (at least the percentage of the donations that were fast offerings) are sent to a General Fast Offering Fund in SL.  The Bishop dispenses assistance as needed, whether less, the same, or more than the ward’s donations and that amount gets reimbursed by the Church from this Fund…I believe.  If more is needed than the Fund has, I assume tithing funds would be used to make up the shortfall.

I will ask my husband if he knows as he has been part of that process quite a bit, but he is out for a walk right now.  Maybe someone else can explain if the ward has one bank account for all donations and funds coming from the stake or SLC and it gets tracked through the paperwork how much of that account is fast offerings or another process is used to track amounts, such as separate accounts for each need.

This is what is taught about fast offerings and like I said above it comes down to trust fast offerings will be used for fast offerings.

Quote

Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin taught, “Fast offerings are used for one purpose only: to bless the lives of those in need. Every dollar given to the bishop as a fast offering goes to assist the poor” (Apr. 2001 general conference).

The bishop of the ward is called by the Lord to administer in all temporal things, including distribution of fast offering funds (see Doctrine and Covenants 107:68). Bestowed with the powers of discernment, the bishop determines who should receive temporal assistance and how it should be given. With a sincere understanding of this sacred trust, the bishop is guided by basic welfare principles. These principles include counseling in love and with compassion; encouraging family reliance; strengthening members to become self-reliant, both spiritually and temporally; meeting temporary needs; providing goods and services necessary to sustain life that are common to most members of the ward; and providing opportunities to work to the extent of the recipient’s ability for the assistance received.

President Gordon B. Hinckley taught: “We hope that through the payment of liberal fast offerings there will be more than enough to provide for the needs of the less fortunate. If every member of this church observed the fast and contributed generously, the poor and the needy—not only of the Church, but many others as well, would be blessed and provided for. Every giver would be blessed in body and spirit, and the hungry would be fed, the naked clothed according to need” (“Rise to a Larger Vision of the Work,” Apr. 1990 general conference).

For information on administering fast offerings, bishops can refer to Handbook 1, 5.2.4.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/fasting-and-fast-offerings?lang=eng

 

Quote

Policy and Principles

“Church leaders encourage members to live the law of the fast. Typically this includes (1) fasting each fast Sunday for two consecutive meals and (2) giving a fast offering that is at least the equivalent value of the meals not eaten. Members are encouraged to be generous and give much more than the value of the two meals if they are able.

“Where a ward is geographically concentrated and where safety conditions permit, the bishop may direct Aaronic Priesthood holders, especially deacons, to contact member households each month to give members the opportunity to contribute fast offerings. Even if members do not contribute, priesthood holders should continue to give them the opportunity to do so. If distances or other circumstances make it necessary, the bishop may limit or eliminate fast-offering collections from homes.” In such cases, the bishop could encourage members to use an approved electronic method such as Online Donations.

“Priesthood holders should go in pairs when gathering fast offerings. Melchizedek Priesthood holders may accompany Aaronic Priesthood holders if necessary.

“Members should not give other contributions, such as tithing, to those who collect fast offerings.

“Those who gather fast offerings deliver them promptly to a member of the bishopric.

“Some members may choose to contribute fast offerings by using the envelopes for tithing and other offerings and giving them directly to the bishopric.

“Members should contribute fast offerings without designating how the funds should be used. Bishops may not enter into arrangements or make commitments to give a member’s fast-offering contribution to an individual or family or to use it for a special purpose that the donor designates.

“Mission and temple presidents contribute fast offerings to the ward where their membership records are located” (General Handbook: Serving in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints [2020], 34.4.2, ChurchofJesusChrist.org).

STEP 1

Where a ward is geographically concentrated and where safety conditions permit, the bishop may direct Aaronic Priesthood holders, especially deacons, to contact member households each month to give members the opportunity to contribute fast offerings.

STEP 2

Priesthood holders should go in pairs when gathering fast offerings. Melchizedek Priesthood holders may accompany Aaronic Priesthood holders if necessary. They give each member a fast-offering envelope that contains a Tithing and Other Offerings form. The member records the fast-offering amount on the form, places the form and money in the envelope, and gives it to the priesthood holders.

STEP 3

Those who gather fast offerings deliver them promptly to the bishop or one of his counselors.

STEP 4

Members should not give other contributions, such as tithing, to those who collect fast offerings.

Procedures

Fast offerings are sometimes collected by members of the Aaronic Priesthood. They follow these procedures to collect fast offerings:

Aaronic Priesthood holders, in pairs, visit members in their homes and hand out fast-offering envelopes.

Each envelope contains a Tithing and Other Offerings form. A donor may record the amount of his or her fast offering and place the form and money in the fast-offering envelope while the members of the Aaronic Priesthood wait. Only fast offerings may be gathered in this manner; other donations must be given directly to a member of the bishopric.

When finished collecting donations, members of the Aaronic Priesthood immediately give these envelopes to a member of the bishopric.

A member of the bishopric includes the donations in these envelopes with other donations received when recording donations on Sunday.

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/tools/help/fast-offering-donations?lang=eng

 

Quote

Have you ever wondered what is done with fast offering money? Here’s a quick look at what happens after you fill out the donation slip.

1. Aaronic Priesthood holders help collect fast offerings and then turn them in to the bishopric. Members also include fast offerings in their donations to the Church.

2. The bishopric then deposits all the donations in a bank account. The funds are carefully accounted for and managed by Church employees. Each ward is then given funds according to the needs of its members.

3. With the help of the Relief Society president and other ward leaders, the bishop determines the needs of the families in the ward. Usually the bishop does not give money to the person being assisted but pays directly for the things the person needs. A family can receive help in the form of commodities (like groceries), payment of certain obligations (like rent or medical bills), or other aid.

4. If a Church facility such as a bishops’ storehouse or a Deseret Industries store is nearby, the bishop or Relief Society president can help a family fill out an order form so that the family can obtain specific items from those facilities.

5. With a bishop’s order form, the family can go to a bishops’ storehouse to get necessary groceries or to a Deseret Industries store to get clothing and other goods.

6. Those who receive help are expected to work for what they receive, if they are able. For example, they may stock shelves at the bishops’ storehouse, help clean Church property, or perform other assignments from their bishop.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2008/05/where-do-fast-offerings-go?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/22-providing-for-temporal-needs?lang=eng#title_number36

This is how money is handled in general, just an FYI:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/34-finances-and-audits?lang=eng

Quote

While 100 percent of fast offerings and humanitarian donations go directly to those in need, the overhead and administrative costs associated with these programs — in addition to the resources needed to build storage facilities, house and deliver humanitarian aid supplies around the world, train volunteers and so on — are privately fronted by the Church. Today, thanks to a robust infrastructure, the Church continues to relieve the hunger, thirst, suffering and poverty of millions of people around the world and to empower individuals and communities to become more self-sustaining.

https://news-bz.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/humanitarian-aid-welfare-services-breakdown-donations-costs-resources

[SeekingUnderstanding]

25 minutes ago, Calm said:

If more is needed than the Fund has, I assume tithing funds would be used to make up the shortfall.

I’ve always heard this, and if it’s true all the more reason not to donate. When I first left the church I still donated to the local ward’s fast offering, until I learned that the church had been funneling excess tithes into a 100 billion dollar “rainy day fund” with no disclosure, and no purpose on the record. Never gave again. Any dollar I give to the fast offering fund, offsets the need for tithing, which creates an excess for the “rainy day” fund. 

[Meadowchik]

29 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

One would assume that church leaders are quite capable of judging their own moral obligations. No mob law needed. 

One would hope so.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Also, what is the procedure for non-LDS to gain assistance through fast offerings? I've never seen it advertised to the poor or homeless, but obviously that doesn't mean it hasn't been. But I have spent time working with the homeless and have seen lists of organizations that offer resources. LDS fast offerings were not on them.

Not sure I included this in my other post:

Quote

Assistance to Persons Who Are Transient or Homeless

Bishops may assist members and others who are transient or homeless. However, they carefully consider the type and amount of assistance given. They are encouraged to counsel with the bishop of the person’s previous ward before giving assistance.

Bishops generally invite transient or homeless members who receive assistance to accept work or service opportunities. Bishops may also refer these members to community resources that are equipped to address their needs.

Based on need, a stake president may appoint one bishop to handle all requests arising in the stake from people who are transient or homeless. In some areas there is a concentration of stakes with large numbers of people who are transient or homeless. In those situations, the Area Presidency may call a service missionary to handle their requests for assistance. This person should have served as a bishop.

22.5.1.4

Assistance to Persons Who Are Not Members of the Church

Persons who are not members of the Church are usually referred to local community resources for assistance. On rare occasions, as guided by the Spirit, the bishop may assist them with fast offerings or bishops’ orders. For instance, the bishop may consider assistance for parents or caretakers who are not Church members but have one or more children who are members.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/22-providing-for-temporal-needs?lang=eng#title_number29

As far as how they go about getting assistance, as far as I know they just seek out the Bishop or Branch President and ask.  In Canada, our chapel was on the main bus line through the province and there were often those seeking assistance at the building.  Whoever was there would usually call up the Bishop to deal with it.  One time my husband brought home a family whose mom was in the hospital who had been camping overnight in the church parking lot (it was sort of close to the hospital) while he got them connected with the bishop.  I watched their dog for a couple of days.  We didn’t have extra beds, but we had a big backyard.  I can’t remember if the Bishop covered a hotel for them or they stayed with another family in the ward.  They weren’t members and hadn’t intended to ask for help, but help was offered as it was obviously needed (three or four kids iirc).

Edited March 11, 2023 by Calm

[CV75]

12 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’ve always heard this, and if it’s true all the more reason not to donate. When I first left the church I still donated to the local ward’s fast offering, until I learned that the church had been funneling excess tithes into a 100 billion dollar “rainy day fund” with no disclosure, and no purpose on the record. Never gave again. Any dollar I give to the fast offering fund, offsets the need for tithing, which creates an excess for the “rainy day” fund. 

It is true: Posted 3 hours ago but what isn't used locally is used elsewhere; the shortfall made up from other donation categories is global. Whatever you gave and not used locally went to people receiving Church welfare anywhere in the world.

Edited March 11, 2023 by CV75

[OGHoosier]

2 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Aren't moral obligations determined and settled through courts? Doing more seems discretionary.

On the one hand, morality must extend beyond court rulings. 

On the other hand, once you get beyond court rulings...says who? It's all discretionary at that point, but it's kino to clothe one's discretionary judgements in the language of moral absolution. 

And "public pressure" in the Twitter era defaults to mob dynamics.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, OGHoosier said:

it's kino to clothe one's discretionary judgements in the language of moral absolution

Kino?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

17 minutes ago, CV75 said:

It is true: Posted 3 hours ago but what isn't used locally is used elsewhere; the shortfall made up from other donation categories is global. Whatever you gave and not used locally went to people receiving Church welfare anywhere in the world.

And the church makes up global fast offering shortfalls using surplus tithing? So any donation I give to fast offerings offsets the need for tithing money. Tithing money that is then available to be saved (and never be touched for years) for what the first presidency alone knows what purpose. Not good enough for me. They don’t really have great track record in transparency and truth. Quite the opposite actually. YMMV. 

Edited March 11, 2023 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Pyreaux]

25 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

One would hope so.

55 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

One would assume that church leaders are quite capable of judging their own moral obligations. No mob law needed. 

Punishing yourself for perceived wrongdoings might reduce your guilt and help you feel better, but society is the proper entity to inflict the punishment to satisfy the obligations that a specific individual owes and decide when the moral obligation is enough. It's the purpose of the court to make perpetrators take responsibility for their wrongdoing without being unduly persecuted. Moral obligations of individuals do not always translate to the institutional level. Moral obligations can be outweighed by other obligations. So doing what is right in real life requires weighing all of the relevant moral considerations by an unbiased party, and that party is not you or me.

[OGHoosier]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Kino?

New online colloqualism with an uncertain definition. Comparable to the colloquial use of "kosher" as in "that's allowed, that's acceptable", but with the implication of "that's allowed and also we kind of like it."

Edited March 11, 2023 by OGHoosier

[mrmarklin]

On 3/9/2023 at 1:21 PM, MiserereNobis said:

The pope's salary: $0

😁

 

While this is technically true, the Pope has at his beck and call servants and pretty much anything he wants.  He also lives in a Palace.  Although, I think the current one lives off site of the palace proper now.  Still, he has a better home than I do, with 24 hour security.

[Meadowchik]

37 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Punishing yourself for perceived wrongdoings might reduce your guilt and help you feel better, but society is the proper entity to inflict the punishment to satisfy the obligations that a specific individual owes and decide when the moral obligation is enough. It's the purpose of the court to make perpetrators take responsibility for their wrongdoing without being unduly persecuted. Moral obligations of individuals do not always translate to the institutional level. Moral obligations can be outweighed by other obligations. So doing what is right in real life requires weighing all of the relevant moral considerations by an unbiased party, and that party is not you or me.

No, a reasonable party can certainly determine compensation and a wealthy one can find someone to help.

Anyways, the church does not agree with you. It does not wait for the courts to decide and is known to offer settlements outside of court and agreed upon by the interested, not unbiased, parties.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Meadowchik

[Pyreaux]

An unbiased third-party determines guilt. Surely you shouldn't always pay for other people' wrongdoings if you are not deemed guilty, no matter how much you could afford to pay.

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Still, he has a better home than I do, with 24 hour security.

You probably have more freedom in choosing how to use your own property though.