Activism toward the Church; talk by Ahmad S. Corbitt of YM General Presidency

[Scott Lloyd]

22 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don’t think discussing Ben Shapiro’s lack of intelligence is necessarily political. 

I’d differ with you on that. 
 

But even if you’re right, your opinions about Shapiro, Candace Owens and Charlie Kirk are quite off topic — for this thread as well as the board in general. 
 

Shall we let the moderation team decide? 

[jkwilliams]

24 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’d differ with you on that. 
 

But even if you’re right, your opinions about Shapiro, Candace Owens and Charlie Kirk are quite off topic — for this thread as well as the board in general. 
 

Shall we let the moderation team decide? 

You’re right. Sorry about that. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by jkwilliams

[Nemesis]

So far it looks like it’s on topic and not necessarily discussing their political slant.  

[Benjamin Seeker]

7 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

This is true but it's not your job to point it out to the church leaders.

Right. It’s not just my job. It’s everyone’s job, yours, mine, church leaders’, etc. If something is morally wrong, it should be corrected, especially to prevent harm. If those in power are not doing the correcting, it falls to others. The church is not immune from this truth.

[Benjamin Seeker]

6 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

God does not need or want activist organizations pushing things.  Not only will these groups push things that are not in line with His will but would just create chaos.  

Agree to disagree. The teaching that God only works through prophets to lead the church has been proven false many times. When Brigham pushed Adam-God, the body of church members and other leaders’ reticence helped keep it in check. When Thomas S. Monson instituted the exclusion policy, the bishops and stake presidents who didn’t comply, the members who voiced their disagreement, and the the members who resigned their membership in response, all helped to quickly reverse the policy. Over the years, the voice of church members, the pressure of the world, and questioning leaders all helped to bring focus on the the priesthood ban and correct it. On the positive side, many of the cherished programs in the church were started not by the prophet, but by members inspired at the ward level and then adopted to the church at large.

The prophet as the ultimate representative of God to the church and the world is a mirage.

[Navidad]

God is the ultimate activist! Maybe the shortest post I have ever posted!

[Teancum]

22 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

This is true but it's not your job to point it out to the church leaders.

Whose job is it?

[CV75]

On 11/2/2022 at 8:23 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

I just encountered this report of an insightful talk on a topic that deserves more attention, the perils of activism toward (or against) the Church of Jesus Christ. It was delivered by Brother Ahmad S. Corbitt of the Young Men general presidency to a group of Church-endorsed chaplains. 
 

https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders/2022/11/1/23424931/brother-ahmad-s-corbit-activism-discipleship?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=cn-social&utm_campaign=facebookpage-en&utm_content=churchnews-en&fbclid=IwAR1jT1UV8G3UnXgZxcy4rb04ozUa-Isaq3jPH_i5kkMrL3Bh_spi1tZ85iI

 

Activism has become so ingrained in our culture over the past two or three generations that some among us have failed to understand when it is inappropriate. 

It seems to me that many discussions on the doctrine of Christ overlook the 3 Nephi 11: 29, 30 and the role of His servants in presenting it to the people through preaching, ordinances and organizing (per 3 Nephi 12:1).

Edited November 6, 2022 by CV75

[CV75]

On 11/3/2022 at 3:06 AM, Benjamin Seeker said:

Without openness to criticism any organization becomes an echo chamber. Also, Jesus is a great example of an activist.

In context of Elder Corbitt's speech, Jesus would have to:

1. “Focus the rising generation and the valiant generally away from the doctrine of Christ and onto real or imagined unfairness or injustice in the Lord’s Church and the imperfections of its leaders.
2. “Use this shift in focus to stir up feelings of disillusionment, annoyance, resentment, anger and hatred toward Church policies, declarations, proclamations, principles, doctrines and eventually leaders.
3. “Manipulate these negative impulses to instigate the use of worldly or secular activism or advocacy rather than the doctrine of Christ to effect change in the kingdom of God.”

In addition, He would have to demonstrate these attributes:

• “[Jesus Christ] looks backward with an eye of judgment and condemns or looks sideways with an eye of scorn and finds fault.”
• “[Jesus Christ] sits on the trash heap of disappointing history recycling others’ real or imagined sins and shortcomings.”
• “It also finds fault with current attempts to regulate the affairs of the Church, chaining everyone involved to the past or present.”
• “[Jesus Christ] generally ignores Church leaders’ positive features and accomplishments.”
• “By nature, [Jesus Christ] will always drive its followers to find other issues.”
• “[Jesus Christ] ... cleverly plays on cultural identities and seeks to elevate them above all else in the minds and hearts of its followers. It substitutes culturally familiar voices for divine ones. ... You and I must help those to whom we minister avoid allowing their social identities to consume them.”
• “[Jesus Christ] dismisses prophetic priorities.”
• “[Jesus Christ] is like thrashing in quicksand. ... Its methods sink the souls and the faith of its followers because, again, this approach undermines the doctrine of Christ.”
• [Jesus Christ] not only fosters contention but justifies it as noble.

Of course, good principles can be abused to do bad things, but I don't see this talk promoting a witch hunt.

 

 

[CV75]

24 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Whose job is it?

It's everyone's job, in accord with the doctrine of Christ (see 3 Nephi 11:29. 30 and 12:1) in the council approach which begins in the home or at last where two or three are gathered in His name.

[Benjamin Seeker]

4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

In context of Elder Corbitt's speech, Jesus would have to:

1. “Focus the rising generation and the valiant generally away from the doctrine of Christ and onto real or imagined unfairness or injustice in the Lord’s Church and the imperfections of its leaders.
2. “Use this shift in focus to stir up feelings of disillusionment, annoyance, resentment, anger and hatred toward Church policies, declarations, proclamations, principles, doctrines and eventually leaders.
3. “Manipulate these negative impulses to instigate the use of worldly or secular activism or advocacy rather than the doctrine of Christ to effect change in the kingdom of God.”

In addition, He would have to demonstrate these attributes:

• “[Jesus Christ] looks backward with an eye of judgment and condemns or looks sideways with an eye of scorn and finds fault.”
• “[Jesus Christ] sits on the trash heap of disappointing history recycling others’ real or imagined sins and shortcomings.”
• “It also finds fault with current attempts to regulate the affairs of the Church, chaining everyone involved to the past or present.”
• “[Jesus Christ] generally ignores Church leaders’ positive features and accomplishments.”
• “By nature, [Jesus Christ] will always drive its followers to find other issues.”
• “[Jesus Christ] ... cleverly plays on cultural identities and seeks to elevate them above all else in the minds and hearts of its followers. It substitutes culturally familiar voices for divine ones. ... You and I must help those to whom we minister avoid allowing their social identities to consume them.”
• “[Jesus Christ] dismisses prophetic priorities.”
• “[Jesus Christ] is like thrashing in quicksand. ... Its methods sink the souls and the faith of its followers because, again, this approach undermines the doctrine of Christ.”
• [Jesus Christ] not only fosters contention but justifies it as noble.

Of course, good principles can be abused to do bad things, but I don't see this talk promoting a witch hunt.

 

 

He did do some of these, only he was trying to change the traditions and priorities of his religious tradition, though with the intention of also strengthening others faith.

I don’t intend on justifying all criticism or negativity, but when there is social/religious tension it doesn’t typically rear it’s head as rainbows and butterflies. And comparing others attempts to reform with Jesus is also unfair, because he was so dang good at what he did.

Some examples from Jesus’ ministry:

Did Jesus foster contention and consider it noble? He often did things he knew would cause contention with the religious establishment. He healed on the sabbath, he said controversial things (raise seed of Abraham from stones for examples), and he  caused a ruckus in the temple twice. He had to ruffle some feathers to accomplish his purpose, and he said as much.

Did he undermine the religious establishment of his day? Yep. Did he dismiss the priorities of his religious leaders? On many issues, of course he did. That was one of his main points.

Did he substitute his interpretation of scripture for the leaders’ interpretation, who were supposed to be God’s representatives?

Did he find fault with his leaders attempts to manage affairs of Israel?

Did he try and draw away the rising generation and valiant from the establishment? “Come follow me,” he invited.

 

[CV75]

1 minute ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

He did do some of these, only he was trying to change the traditions and priorities of his religious tradition, though with the intention of also strengthening others faith.

I don’t intend on justifying all criticism or negativity, but when there is social/religious tension it doesn’t typically rear it’s head as rainbows and butterflies. And comparing others attempts to reform with Jesus is also unfair, because he was so dang good at what he did.

Some examples from Jesus’ ministry:

Did Jesus foster contention and consider it noble? He often did things he knew would cause contention with the religious establishment. He healed on the sabbath, he said controversial things (raise seed of Abraham from stones for examples), and he  caused a ruckus in the temple twice. He had to ruffle some feathers to accomplish his purpose, and he said as much.

Did he undermine the religious establishment of his day? Yep. Did he dismiss the priorities of his religious leaders? On many issues, of course he did. That was one of his main points.

Did he substitute his interpretation of scripture for the leaders’ interpretation, who were supposed to be God’s representatives?

Did he find fault with his leaders attempts to manage affairs of Israel?

Did he try and draw away the rising generation and valiant from the establishment? “Come follow me,” he invited.

 

He did none of them.

[Benjamin Seeker]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

He did none of them.

I just gave you tons of awesome examples. 

[CV75]

3 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

I just gave you tons of awesome examples. 

They were awful examples. In no instance or action was He undermining His own doctrine.

[Benjamin Seeker]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

They were awful examples. In no instance or action was He undermining His own doctrine.

I didn’t say he undermined his own. I said he undermined the doctrine of the religious establishment of his time and the priorities of the leaders of that establishment, who were supposed to be the representatives of God in Judaism.

[CV75]

12 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

I didn’t say he undermined his own. I said he undermined the doctrine of the religious establishment of his time and the priorities of the leaders of that establishment, who were supposed to be the representatives of God in Judaism.

And I spoke of the context of Elder Corbitt's talk.

[Benjamin Seeker]

30 minutes ago, CV75 said:

And I spoke of the context of Elder Corbitt's talk.

But obviously if your going to compare modern day activists to Jesus, you can’t hold all the parameters the same. That would be nonsensical.

I’m starting to think that you’re not on my side.  My guess is we’re not going to find much common ground here.

 

[CV75]

16 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

But obviously if your going to compare modern day activists to Jesus, you can’t hold all the parameters the same. That would be nonsensical.

I’m starting to think that you’re not on my side.  My guess is we’re not going to find much common ground here.

 

I simply take the question, "In what ways was Jesus an activist?" to be different than "What describes activism toward the Church?", which is the much narrower context of the speech.

I also think, in a practical sense, that answering the question, "In what ways was Jesus an activist/not an activist?" is more a rhetorical tool used in activism than any actual example of activism.

[Benjamin Seeker]

47 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I simply take the question, "In what ways was Jesus an activist?" to be different than "What describes activism toward the Church?", which is the much narrower context of the speech.

I also think, in a practical sense, that answering the question, "In what ways was Jesus an activist/not an activist?" is more a rhetorical tool used in activism than any actual example of activism.

I think it’s ironic that the church put more effort towards shutting down activism in it’s ranks and community, then it does and engaging meaningfully or productively with it when we consider the fact that both Christianity and Mormonism were started through religious reform. And, if an activist or reformer were to claim revelation, as Christ and Joseph Smith did, that would be the quickest way to ensure excommunication.

[CV75]

18 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

I think it’s ironic that the church put more effort towards shutting down activism in it’s ranks and community, then it does and engaging meaningfully or productively with it when we consider the fact that both Christianity and Mormonism were started through religious reform. And, if an activist or reformer were to claim revelation, as Christ and Joseph Smith did, that would be the quickest way to ensure excommunication.

Sorry, this is too much rhetoric for me to address.

[california boy]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

He did none of them.

If you don't think that Jesus radically changed the religion of His day, do you believe that Judaism and Christianity are pretty much the same and there was no real importance to the messages Christ taught that are not found in Judaism.

Keep in mind that the religious leaders of His religion were so up in arms with what Christ was doing that the hung Him on the Cross.  

They viewed what Christ was doing was nothing short of being a radical departure from their doctrinal messages and practices.  He brought his message to the people and only talked to the religious leaders when they directly confronted Him.

This notion that Christ wasn't one of the biggest agitators in the history of religion is a complete denial of what Christ spent whole time doing and the results from that activism.

The Jewish sheep followed the church leaders without questioning.  The ones that followed Christ were drawn away from Judaism and into a totally different way of thinking about God's principles.

[CV75]

22 minutes ago, california boy said:

If you don't think that Jesus radically changed the religion of His day, do you believe that Judaism and Christianity are pretty much the same and there was no real importance to the messages Christ taught that are not found in Judaism.

Keep in mind that the religious leaders of His religion were so up in arms with what Christ was doing that the hung Him on the Cross.  

They viewed what Christ was doing was nothing short of being a radical departure from their doctrinal messages and practices.  He brought his message to the people and only talked to the religious leaders when they directly confronted Him.

This notion that Christ wasn't one of the biggest agitators in the history of religion is a complete denial of what Christ spent whole time doing and the results from that activism.

The Jewish sheep followed the church leaders without questioning.  The ones that followed Christ were drawn away from Judaism and into a totally different way of thinking about God's principles.

Keep in mind what I was actually talking about.

[CV75]

Is it more polite to use the term "less-activist" or "inactivist"? "Part-activist"?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

Keep in mind what I was actually talking about.

Yes. You made the incredibly banal and circular observation that Christ didn’t advocate against himself! Nice!

Edited November 7, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[blueglass]

On 11/3/2022 at 5:56 PM, bluebell said:

From my perspective, McKay supports my view. He wanted very much to end the practice, and believes that he was strongly told no by the Lord. 

Told "no" by his own bias and false racial traditions.  The Lord is good and never the author of the white supremacy views which instituted the eternal family ban against all black Africans.