Sunday last, something happened at Church that was disappointing.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I seldom, or never speak badly of members, especially friends or members of my Ward. Or I hope I have never done so. Or have I. I do dive  into the deep end of the pool, when I read of members, or appointed leaders when I learn of sexual crimes against members, especially when it is children, robbed of their innocence! Anyway, on Sunday last (Fast Sunday) I attended both hours, trying to deny the pain in my broken back, and still being very weak from my near death weeks before. 
 

1) During Fast and Testimony meeting in our Ward, well every Ward, but I can only speak to what I witnessed. I was happy that the Atlanta Temple President, and his wife was visiting my Ward. Not long into the meeting, the wife of the Temple President, got up to bear her testimony. Within a few moments, she began discussing things about Temple ordinances, that cannot even be discussed on this website, least any of us would be banned. Just to give a hint, you can find a clue in the Book of Revelation, where it speaks of “names”. Then after discussing things that should only be spoken of in the Temple, she announced what the name of the day was. She then goes on to describe things in the endowment room. Thankfully, I was not the only one looking around, and confused, while trying to understand. When the Temple President got up to bear his testimony, he acted as if nothing happened. So, I began to wonder, if in my long absence some things had changed.

2) When I went to Sunday School, I found out that my Home Teacher, and his wife were both called to teach Sunday School. I think they were, because two weeks before  they had given out assignments for some to read and report on what they were assigned. As I sat near the back, my Home Teacher, or whatever it is called now, kept looking at me. He wanted to know if anyone had a favorite scripture from the Book of Proverbs. When no one spoke up, he asked me. I could see he was trying to include me, (which was wonderful)  so I read two scriptures that I love. The first was Proverbs 1:4, where it reads that “To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion”, and Provers 1:7, “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: by fools despise wisdom and instruction”. So when I pointed out that Proverbs was written in such a way, that even the simple have no excuse to claim “I didn’t, or don’t understand”. He suddenly seems upset, thinking I was just making a joke, but I was not. I was only quoting verses “ and 4”. Then he tells me, thanks Bill, you just quoted the only verse I handed out two weeks ago! So, I apologized, for truly nothing, just because it made him upset. From that moment on, there was no need to happen on another verse he assigned from Proverbs, because no other scriptures we were to read were spoken from Proverbs, or any scriptures, as members were given to read in preparation. Every other scripture given out, or read from him was from the Doctrine and Covenants. After all, what a missed opportunity, as Proverbs is a wonderful treasure to everyone. When he turns the class over to his wife, whom my wife eats lunch with weekly, she tells everyone that, “most of you know I have a Masters in English Literature, but I am retired. However, let me take this time to teach you how to properly read and study. She then uses Proverbs 1, and start explaining punctuation, etc.

 

I do not know, maybe I am too conservative, or my time is past. Maybe I have nothing to offer anymore. This same teacher, my home teacher, called Sunday, and says…”Bill, you weren’t at Church today, what is wrong”? I tell him that my blood sugar crashed, and I could barely walk. He then tells me, “well Brother Buck, or Elders Quorum President, didn’t read the lesson, and you could have stepped up”. “He would also love you to teach, you are a great teacher, and he wants you to teach some lessons”. So again, I apologize for nothing again, then my Home Teacher, my fried, says “Bill, what all is wrong with you anyway that you can’t get to Church, after all President Buck needs someone he can rely on”. 
 

I fear I am losing my Faith, not in the Gospel, but the people around me? 
 

For the mods, this is meant to be a discussion about doctrine, the scriptures, and the commandments and traditions of our Faith. In short, the mission of this website. To those who have read this far, have rules about discussing Temple ordinances changed, while not in the Temple? Also, not having a teachers manual, when studying the Bible, are other scriptures in the BoM, and the D&C the recommended texts? Finally, how can those of poor health be of service to the Church, r anyone else? BTW, I am not asking as a jest! 

[blackstrap]

Some people are just oblivious Bill. They could use a course in anatomy and geology if you get my drift. 

As far as service in the church goes, you may already be doing so , but if not can you do name inputting for temple work ? 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

40 minutes ago, Jim Dandy said:

1) The rules of this website apply only to this website.  In reality we may say anything we want to say.  Those of us who have made covenants in temples have covenanted not to share specific names, tokens and signs with anyone but that prohibition applies only to those specific names, tokens and signs, and even abiding by that covenant we may talk about those names, tokens and signs as long as we don't reveal the specifics of those names, tokens and signs.  

2) Some people are idiots, or simply ignorant of some facts, including me and most other members of the Church.  Cut us some slack, will ya?  A LOT of slack.  Me and those other idiots or ignorant people should appreciate getting a lot of slacks.

 

Oh Jim, as one who has been to 12 different Temples, both in the U.S. and Europe, there is a fine line, when speaking of that which is so sacred. So which am I, “idiot” or “simply ignorant”. I do and have given slack, apologizing for things that I didn’t need to do, even to those who seek to offend. I try to be the peacekeeper always, so that God my give unto me the blessing promised to those who act as “Peacemaker”

[bsjkki]

When dealing with health issues, people often don’t get it or understand. I’ve been working on boundaries with this issue. I set my boundaries and then try and not get frustrated or mad when people don’t understand or don’t get them. It’s okay for people to ask me to do something or expect more of me or a family member. I can just say ‘no.’ 
 

I would often, in the past, get frustrated or feel I had to convince the person. Or share enough for them to ‘get it.’ I’ve learned they don’t get it so my job is not to get mad or frustrated or convince them of the legitimacy of my response. 
 

I am generally a ‘rule’ follower and would get sad frustrated with leaders setting up people for failure. Like the time they wanted the youth to read the Book of Mormon for a challenge, the New Testament for seminary and the D&C in Sunday School. Instead of being frustrated I should have counseled my children to ask God what they should focus on and follow that direction. 
 

With my autistic and type 1 teen the list of rude, ignorant and unsympathetic, judgy comments is long. I have gotten better but still have trouble when it involves my kids. But, it is better for me to set boundaries and shrug it off thinking ‘they don’t know what they don’t know.’ (I still fail at this too often)
 

My husband, he deals with chronic testicle pain. My answer there if people push is, if you really want to know why he is out of commission at times I will tell you. As my teen daughter would say, ‘ I’m really tired of talking about my dad’s nuts!’ 
 

*to be completely honest here. It’s easier to be anonymous at times to let it all go. We fled our ward and sit in the back of a neighboring ward and now keep to ourselves. The wounds are deep and not healed and we need a bit of time away from expectations to regroup. It’s been very nice to sit in the back, take the sacrament and listen to strangers give talks. I feel safe. 

Edited September 12, 2022 by bsjkki

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

“Bill, what all is wrong with you anyway that you can’t get to Church, after all President Buck needs someone he can rely on”

"Look, I've told you before, I come to church when I am able to do so, and I'd love to teach if it didn't involve me doing so while falling on my face because my health is crap at the moment. Do you really want paramedics standing by while I attempt to teach? Because that's what it may involve."

Then you could offer to teach the class via Zoom. 

These people sound like uncaring, stuck-up snobs.

[Stargazer]

2 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

As my teen daughter would say, ‘ I’m really tired of talking about my dad’s nuts!’ 

She could offer to kick them in a particular place so they might get a clue.

[Tacenda]

I love you guys! I'm so glad Papa has somewhere to speak of this, cause where else is he gonna go, right? Great comments! Love @bsjkki's comment, made me crack up! 

Just keep on keeping on with these awesome comments. And for me, I am under a different umbrella now but remember plenty of times of feeling totally rained on, and papa, hoping these nincompoops get back in to seeing the full picture and just appreciate that you came and sat through meetings! My dad broke his back too, and he was in surgery after surgery which built up scar tissue, and it took everything to be able to last through Sac Mtg on hard benches. So I empathize with you having seen my dad's pain. He did it for my mother, he wasn't much for scripture reading or don't even know how much he believed, but was sealed to her because he wanted her to be happy. 

Hope you have a better experience next time you go, and renew your faith in humanity! Love ya!

[Rain]

3 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I seldom, or never speak badly of members, especially friends or members of my Ward. Or I hope I have never done so. Or have I. I do dive  into the deep end of the pool, when I read of members, or appointed leaders when I learn of sexual crimes against members, especially when it is children, robbed of their innocence! Anyway, on Sunday last (Fast Sunday) I attended both hours, trying to deny the pain in my broken back, and still being very weak from my near death weeks before. 

 

I'm sorry it has been tough on you. 

3 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

1) During Fast and Testimony meeting in our Ward, well every Ward, but I can only speak to what I witnessed. I was happy that the Atlanta Temple President, and his wife was visiting my Ward. Not long into the meeting, the wife of the Temple President, got up to bear her testimony. Within a few moments, she began discussing things about Temple ordinances, that cannot even be discussed on this website, least any of us would be banned. Just to give a hint, you can find a clue in the Book of Revelation, where it speaks of “names”. Then after discussing things that should only be spoken of in the Temple, she announced what the name of the day was. She then goes on to describe things in the endowment room. Thankfully, I was not the only one looking around, and confused, while trying to understand. When the Temple President got up to bear his testimony, he acted as if nothing happened. So, I began to wonder, if in my long absence some things had changed.

Without knowing what she said (and I'm not asking) I don't know if she is sharing what shouldn't be shared or not.   I would think with her calling she may have had instruction on what she could share,  but I also know some people don't always do their callings in the way instructed. 

I do know that for quite awhile now we have been able to share more than many have thought.  When I went through my dad told me, "read the Pearl of Great Price" and that was it.   He is still not comfortable sharing much more than that even though it would be ok and often good to do so.

3 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

2) When I went to Sunday School, I found out that my Home Teacher, and his wife were both called to teach Sunday School. I think they were, because two weeks before  they had given out assignments for some to read and report on what they were assigned. As I sat near the back, my Home Teacher, or whatever it is called now, kept looking at me. He wanted to know if anyone had a favorite scripture from the Book of Proverbs. When no one spoke up, he asked me. I could see he was trying to include me, (which was wonderful)  so I read two scriptures that I love. The first was Proverbs 1:4, where it reads that “To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion”, and Provers 1:7, “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: by fools despise wisdom and instruction”. So when I pointed out that Proverbs was written in such a way, that even the simple have no excuse to claim “I didn’t, or don’t understand”. He suddenly seems upset, thinking I was just making a joke, but I was not. I was only quoting verses “ and 4”. Then he tells me, thanks Bill, you just quoted the only verse I handed out two weeks ago! So, I apologized, for truly nothing, just because it made him upset.

It's very possible he wasn't upset with you.  He could have been making a joke or just was floundering a little bit of where to go from there. It didn't make you feel safe and that's not good, but just know he likely didn't mean it as gruff as you felt it. 

3 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

From that moment on, there was no need to happen on another verse he assigned from Proverbs, because no other scriptures we were to read were spoken from Proverbs, or any scriptures, as members were given to read in preparation. Every other scripture given out, or read from him was from the Doctrine and Covenants. After all, what a missed opportunity, as Proverbs is a wonderful treasure to everyone. When he turns the class over to his wife, whom my wife eats lunch with weekly, she tells everyone that, “most of you know I have a Masters in English Literature, but I am retired. However, let me take this time to teach you how to properly read and study. She then uses Proverbs 1, and start explaining punctuation, etc.

 

I do not know, maybe I am too conservative, or my time is past. Maybe I have nothing to offer anymore. This same teacher, my home teacher, called Sunday, and says…”Bill, you weren’t at Church today, what is wrong”? I tell him that my blood sugar crashed, and I could barely walk. He then tells me, “well Brother Buck, or Elders Quorum President, didn’t read the lesson, and you could have stepped up”. “He would also love you to teach, you are a great teacher, and he wants you to teach some lessons”. So again, I apologize for nothing again, then my Home Teacher, my fried, says “Bill, what all is wrong with you anyway that you can’t get to Church, after all President Buck needs someone he can rely on”. 
 

I fear I am losing my Faith, not in the Gospel, but the people around me? 
 

For the mods, this is meant to be a discussion about doctrine, the scriptures, and the commandments and traditions of our Faith. In short, the mission of this website. To those who have read this far, have rules about discussing Temple ordinances changed, while not in the Temple? Also, not having a teachers manual, when studying the Bible, are other scriptures in the BoM, and the D&C the recommended texts?

 

The lessons are filled with scriptures from the other books.  Some may only have 1 or none, but others may have 10-15 outside of the book being read.  The good thing is connecting those scriptures together.  The bad thing is there is already a lot of reading ground to cover.

3 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Finally, how can those of poor health be of service to the Church, r anyone else? BTW, I am not asking as a jest! 

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Rain

[rpn]

When someone offends us.  We are taught to pray for them, and to seek them out to reconcile.    I would be very curious about what the Temple president and wife was thinking.   And I'd ask them about it.   They are entitled to inspiration in their callings, after all.   And it doesn't sound like they disclosed what we are asked NOT to, just temple policies.

As for the other issues.   I have a hard time believing that your long term ward members are intending to dis you or make you feel bad in any way.   If something bit you and you can resolve it, talk to whomever.   (Have to admit that I think it pretty funny that they are talking to an elderly guy whose recently had two health scares counseling about reliability: are they planning to complain when you actually die about your "lack of reliability"?   I'd be feeling sorry for them,  myself.)

[mfbukowski]

Hey Papa, love you "dude" ( gotta be modern, ya know   )

I agree with you and find pretty much " disappointing".  We have seen it all, mi amigo.  Nobody knows how how hard getting old is until you get there; welcome to the last days in more than one sense.

Keep close to the Lord and keep those channels open, every day gives us more lessons we still need to learn, more puzzles to solve. 

"Nearer my God to Thee, even if it is a cross that raises me"

For me, that is the key.  Every day, it seems we get a new cross, and from it, depending how well we handle it, another opportunity, to get closer to the Lord

Keep learning my brother!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

30 minutes ago, Rain said:

It's very possible he wasn't upset with you.  He could have been making a joke or just was floundering a little bit of where to go from there. It didn't make you feel safe and that's not good, but just know he likely didn't mean it as gruff as you felt it. 

 

Actually he thought I was making a joke, when I pointed out how even the “simple and the young”, according to verse 4, have no excuse of not understanding. He did not have his scriptures in front of him, my guess is that he did not hear what I volunteered to read. Even though, I did so at his request. In his defense, when he calls to check on me, I often make jokes to deflect from telling him how I am. I have been so sick for so long, many will just stop me in the hallway at Church, and say things like, “Alright Bill, what is wrong with you now”? Along with some very rude questions, and often, my wife will, she be asked, “Why has Brother Lee gone inactive, and what can we do to get him back in Church”? First she tells them, he is not inactive, he is very ill”!  My wife can take a lot, but has no patience when people do this kind of thing. If any of my children are around, or my older grandchildren, they chime in to spare Pam’s wrath. Usually she will say, “I don’t know, can you mend a broken back, can you find a cure for all Lupos related illness, can you cure diabetes”? “If so, come by anytime”! What confused me the most, my Home Teacher was saying that the Elders Quorum needs someone reliable to teach. Stunned, I sad, I didn’t know you were also in Elders Quorum Presidency. He always wonder why I don’t get health blessing, and says he will find somebody, and come by. I remind him that every Sunday, I have three sons, who are Elders, sitting around my table. So when I need a blessing, I turn to them, so that they can use their Priesthood. But, even though there no cause, ai apologized to him again. My wife keeps wanting to know why I do it, so I just hum, or sing, “aI trying to be like Jesus”. I mean come on, he forgave his murderers. 

[mfbukowski]

6 minutes ago, rpn said:

When someone offends us.  We are taught to pray for them, and to seek them out to reconcile.    I would be very curious about what the Temple president and wife was thinking.   And I'd ask them about it.   They are entitled to inspiration in their callings, after all.   And it doesn't sound like they disclosed what we are asked NOT to, just temple policies.

As for the other issues.   I have a hard time believing that your long term ward members are intending to dis you or make you feel bad in any way.   If something bit you and you can resolve it, talk to whomever.   (Have to admit that I think it pretty funny that they are talking to an elderly guy whose recently had two health scares counseling about reliability: are they planning to complain when you actually die about your "lack of reliability"?   I'd be feeling sorry for them,  myself.)

That may be a learning opportunity right there

Think of the way the Lord was mocked.  Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Hey Papa, love you "dude" ( gotta be modern, ya know   )

Thank you brother, love you too. In fact I love 90% of the regular ,posters here, they always give great advice, and they are like family to me. I count them all as a wonderful blessing. As someone who spends 20+ hours a day in bed, it is great to connect with those out in the real world. It sometimes allows me to feel like I am elsewhere else, and for a short time to not feel so much pain, or so much loneliness. 

 

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

But, even though there no cause, ai apologized to him again.

Are you sure you're not Canadian? 😉

[Calm]

Our stake patriarch in Canada more or less scolded us for not talking more about what went on in the temple. He said there was very little we actually covenanted not to share and people tend to be way too cautious resulting in the temple feeling alien to firsttimers instead of like coming home. He was primarily referring to teaching our kids about the temple, suggesting when packing temple clothes or washing and ironing them before a temple trip would be a good time to discuss them with our kids. He did say to choose the right place and time in order to maintain the respect for the sacred we should have, but we should still be more relaxed about discussing our experiences. 

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

She actually revealed what a new name was on a certain day? That's incredible... If I were the bishop that day, I would have offered correction. Which, would have been super awkward for all involved. Holy smokes. 

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

PS. I'm sorry that your ministering brother seems to be so clueless. Truly, your experience was awful and unjustified. People can be so dense at times.