Love this church newsroom article. Stick to true stories!

[mfbukowski]

16 hours ago, bsjkki said:

This has been a pet peeve of mine for ages now. Stick to ‘true’ pioneer stories. 

Why the quotes then?

A little doubtful at what "true" even means in this context?

[JLHPROF]

26 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Why the quotes then?

A little doubtful at what "true" even means in this context?

Something that actually happened historically.

[JLHPROF]

42 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

No, that's "scripture".

And no, it doesn't matter.  It is true if it makes your life better 

These are called "parables".

What was the prodigal son's name? Where did he live?

If you base your faith, testimony, or build on imaginary building blocks your foundation won't hold up.

So it matters because false history won't make your life better.  There's a huge difference between a parable and a historical falsehood.  One is a morality lesson, the other can drop to the level of propaganda.

[bsjkki]

44 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Why the quotes then?

A little doubtful at what "true" even means in this context?

I guess stories that are true vs stories that are presented as ‘true.’

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

I guess stories that are true vs stories that are presented as ‘true.’

Circular.  Same word in both sides of the equation;  A=A tells us nothing about A

"Stories that are A vs stories presented as A"

Edited July 24, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

36 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

If you base your faith, testimony, or build on imaginary building blocks your foundation won't hold up.

So it matters because false history won't make your life better.  There's a huge difference between a parable and a historical falsehood.  One is a morality lesson, the other can drop to the level of propaganda.

Propaganda?

Like "All people are created equal"??

Where is that historically accurate?

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Define "accurate" !

We are postmoderns, deconstructing is what we do.

 

Well that’s the problem. No one here was there, so we are at liberty to deconstruct things right out of existence. 

Our local university is in the throes of deciding the fate of the softball coach. 15 current and past players have written letters accusing her in detail of ongoing physical, emotional, and verbal abuse, but 19 have written letters saying she’s the best coach they ever had. I imagine someone writing a history of the softball program 100 years from now. What was she like? 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Propaganda?

Like "All people are created equal"??

Where is that historically accurate?

Men aren't created equal.

It's historically accurate to state that the phrase is in the Declaration of Independence.  It's historically accurate to say the founders rejected a royalty rule based partly on that principle.

It's historically inaccurate to say Moroni appeared in disguise and convinced them to sign the Declaration.

History us what happened.  Pioneer stories should be historically accurate as far as possible.  Not urban legend.

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Like "All people are created equal"??

Where is that historically accurate?

I just finished drinking a mug of hot chocolate (no sugar) whilst working from home (because I'm the only one in my household without Covid). I know that to be 'historically accurate'. No one else on this forum does, but if you trust me, you can believe it and even repeat it.

Here's another one:

My workday in Jakarta wrapped up at 8:45pm. From campus, I would walk to the nearby bus interchange and catch the last bus that would take me close to home. I did so one evening very early in my contract, and as I watched the streetscape pass in the dark outside, I started to worry. I found it bewildering to be living in the world's second largest metropolitan area, and nothing seemed familiar, but what I was seeing outside seemed less familiar than usual. With growing anxiety, I took the opportunity the next time the bus stopped at a traffic light to quickly hop off and look at the number. Yep, I had boarded the wrong bus.

Back on the bus, my mind raced. I had no idea what part of this sprawling city of more than 20,000,000 people I was in, and, worse, I had no clue where this bus was taking me. I had no reason to believe it would be anywhere near home, and since I only knew how to walk home from from a single familiar bus stop, that didn't matter anyway. I thought about trying to catch another bus back to the interchange, but since these buses stopped running at 9pm, I knew that, even if I found a bus back, there would be no bus waiting for me. I spoke no Indonesian and had no way of telling anyone what my situation was or even where I lived. (I only knew the name of my street, not even the suburb.)

In the midst of my panic, I turned to the only source of help available to me, and I bowed my head and prayed. I'm not sure how many times I repeated that process, but all of sudden, I had an unmistakable impression that I needed to get off the bus immediately. In faith, I signalled the driver (by knocking a coin on the handrail) and stepped off.

I had literally no clue where I was, but the bus had let me down a few metres in front of a busy four-way intersection that had a streetlight, so I walked to the corner and stood under that light. It was now nearly 9:30, and I was alone somewhere in a strange city, but I prayed again and pled for help. As I opened my eyes, my sight was drawn to a bus on the far side of the crossroad, heading my way. It was the bus I was supposed to have boarded to get home.

As I later was able to establish, my bus and the wrong bus crossed routes at a single point -- the very point where I was instructed to get off the bus.

Some people reading this will think I'm making it all up.

Others will think I'm telling the truth but have put an unnecessary religious spin on what was just coincidence.

I personally know what happened, and I'm the only one who does. And after years of similar experiences, I've learnt to recognise the Voice that, in response to my earnest prayers, told me what to do that night in order to get home.

People who have had their own similar experiences will be inclined to believe me, not because they have access to my life experiences but because it will 'ring true' with their own.

People who have not had similar experiences will in many cases be inclined to disbelieve me or to reject my interpretation of events because that's how we commonly react to the unfamiliar.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[mfbukowski]

18 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I just finished drinking a mug of hot chocolate (no sugar) whilst working from home (because I'm the only one in my household without Covid). I know that to be 'historically accurate'. No one else on this forum does, but if you trust me, you can believe it and even repeat it.

Here's another one:

My workday in Jakarta wrapped up at 8:45pm. From campus, I would walk to the nearby bus interchange and catch the last bus that would take me close to home. I did so one evening very early in my contract, and as I watched the streetscape pass in the dark outside, I started to worry. I found it bewildering to be living in the world's second largest metropolitan area, and nothing seemed familiar, but what I was seeing outside seemed less familiar than usual. With growing anxiety, I took the opportunity the next time the bus stopped at a traffic light to quickly hop off and look at the number. Yep, I had boarded the wrong bus.

Back on the bus, my mind raced. I had no idea what part of this sprawling city of more than 20,000,000 people I was in, and, worse, I had no clue where this bus was taking me. I had no reason to believe it would be anywhere near home, and since I only knew how to walk home from from a single familiar bus stop, that didn't matter anyway. I thought about trying to catch another bus back to the interchange, but since these buses stopped running at 9pm, I knew that, even if I found a bus back, there would be no bus waiting for me. I spoke no Indonesian and had no way of telling anyone what my situation was or even where I lived. (I only knew the name of my street, not even the suburb.)

In the midst of my panic, I turned to the only source of help available to me, and I bowed my head and prayed. I'm not sure how many times I repeated that process, but all of sudden, I had an unmistakable impression that I needed to get off the bus immediately. In faith, I signalled the driver (by knocking a coin on the handrail) and stepped off.

I had literally no clue where I was, but the bus had let me down a few metres in front of a busy four-way intersection that had a streetlight, so I walked to the corner and stood under that light. It was now nearly 9:30, and I was alone somewhere in a strange city, but I prayed again and pled for help. As I opened my eyes, my sight was drawn to a bus on the far side of the crossroad, heading my way. It was the bus I was supposed to have boarded to get home.

As I later was able to establish, my bus and the wrong bus crossed routes at a single point -- the very point where I was instructed to get off the bus.

Some people reading this will think I'm making it all up.

Others will think I'm telling the truth but have put an unnecessary religious spin on what was just coincidence.

I personally know what happened, and I'm the only one who does. And after years of similar experiences, I've learnt to recognise the Voice that told me what to do that night in order to get home.

Wonderful story, which I completely believe because I have had similar experiences.

What I do NOT know is whether or not you just made it up, but that doesn't matter 1 iota to me because I personally have had similar things happen to me. It teaches me no new information about God which I did not know, but I find it tremendously inspiring. 

Thanks for sharing!

Whether or not Joseph was a prophet is not a "historical" need for me.

The Book of Mormon is the word of God, I need no human testimony to know that.

Frankly I am sorry for people who require human testimony to teach that.

For me the story is entirely unbelievable but I KNOW that it is scripture from God, because God has told me

[Fether]

8 hours ago, Duncan said:

Who is Bill Carpenter?

Look up “bill carpenter conversion story” on YouTube.

 

he was a catholic priest in training turn mormon. Lots of miracles and cool stuff

Edited July 25, 2022 by Fether

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Wonderful story, which I completely believe because I have had similar experiences.

What I do NOT know is whether or not you just made it up, but that doesn't matter 1 iota to me because I personally have had similar things happen to me. It teaches me no new information about God which I did not know...

Exactly! I edited my post above with these same ideas as you were writing.

This is precisely why, from the very beginning, the key to conversion has always been personal experience. I was not in the grove with Joseph, but I've had my own grove moments. These incline me to accept what Joseph said, but -- and this is key! -- I would still believe what I have experienced even if Joseph fabricated or embellished his stories. My quest for knowledge may have been inspired by what he said, but what I have come to know is independent of his 'history'.

At the same time, there is another principle that applies here, and it's the same one that Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 8 regarding whether the Saints should worry about eating meat that had been sacrificed to false idols:

Quote

But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

The 'liberty' of a post-modern approach to narrative is fine ... right up till it becomes a stumblingblock to others who, for whatever reason, may be more reliant (for now) on the 'factual' stories of others.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Scott Lloyd]

On 7/23/2022 at 11:13 PM, bsjkki said:

This has been a pet peeve of mine for ages now. Stick to ‘true’ pioneer stories. 
 

 

 

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Why the quotes then?

A little doubtful at what "true" even means in this context?

Some folks misuse quotation marks to show emphasis. To avoid confusion, they should use other tools for that, such as italics, boldface or even all caps. Quotation marks should be reserved for indicating a direct quotation. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Exactly! I edited my post above with these same ideas as you were writing.

This is precisely why, from the very beginning, the key to conversion has always been personal experience. I was not in the grove with Joseph, but I've had my own grove moments. These incline me to accept what Joseph said, but -- and this is key! -- I would still believe what I have experienced even if Joseph fabricated or embellished his stories. My quest for knowledge may have been inspired by what he said, but what I have come to know is independent of his 'history'.

At the same time, there is another principle that applies here, and it's the same one that Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 8 regarding whether the Saints should worry about eating meat that had been sacrificed to false idols:

The 'liberty' of a post-modern approach to narrative is fine ... right up till it becomes a stumblingblock to others who, for whatever reason, may be more reliant (for now) on the 'factual' stories of others.

Excellent point, but it grieves me horribly to lose members over historic issues which I know are immaterial, while they themselves cannot explain clearly why it is an important issue for them

Someone needs to point out logical fallacies.

Religious truth is not scientific truth, based on objective evidence.

To believe so is a category mistake.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_mistake

""The first example is of a visitor to Oxford. The visitor, upon viewing the colleges and library, reportedly inquired "But where is the University?"^[6] The visitor's mistake is presuming that a University is part of the category "units of physical infrastructure" rather than that of an "institution". Ryle's second example is of a child witnessing the march-past of a division of soldiers. After having had battalions, batteries, squadrons, etc. pointed out, the child asks when is the division going to appear. "The march-past was not a parade of battalions, batteries, squadrons and a division; it was a parade of the battalions, batteries and squadrons of a division." (Ryle's italics)""

Edited July 25, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Quotation marks should be reserved for indicating a direct quotation. 

I'm reasonably certain that this is a direct quotation from the blogpost in the OP.

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Excellent point, but it grieves me horribly to lose members over historic issues which I know are immaterial, while they themselves cannot explain clearly why it is an important issue for them.

Same. But I'm also happy to remove easily avoided 'historic issues' like known embellishments so that people who are determined to apostatise have to go looking even harder/further to find an excuse.

In addition, having a PhD in history, I'm pretty keen on getting stories as right as possible anyway. I've been told that my employer is the only member of our parliament whose speeches have every single fact footnoted and referenced!

Edited July 25, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

Some folks misuse quotation marks to show emphasis. To avoid confusion, they should use other tools for that, such as italics, boldface or even all caps. Quotation marks should be reserved for indicating a direct quotation. 

Thanks for your concern, but I believe that language is dynamic, and that those alleged rules are no longer relevant.

It was not for emphasis; I was trying to show that what was called "truth" was not truth.

Ever read e.e. cummings?

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Thanks for your concern, but I believe that language is dynamic, and that those alleged rules are no longer relevant.

 

Dynamic but not anarchistic. Who declared them irrelevant?

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Dynamic but not anarchistic. Who declared them irrelevant?

since feeling is first

By: E. E. Cummings

since feeling is first
who pays any attention
to the syntax of things
will never wholly kiss you;

wholly to be a fool
while Spring is in the world

my blood approves,
and kisses are a better fate
than wisdom
lady i swear by all flowers. Don’t cry
– the best gesture of my brain is less than
your eyelids’ flutter which says

we are for each other; then
laugh, leaning back in my arms
for life’s not a paragraph

And death i think is no parenthesis

E. E. Cummings

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Dynamic but not anarchistic. Who declared them irrelevant?

Of course you would need a declaration by authority.

Love ya bro! 🥰

Edited July 25, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

 

It was not for emphasis; I was trying to show that what was called "truth" was not truth.

 

 

It was not even your post I was referring to. It was the one from bsjkki. It apparently used the quotation marks  for text emphasis, and yes, such usage is a pet peeve of mine. 🤷‍♂️ 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It was not even your post I was referring to. It was the one from bsjkki. It apparently used the quotation marks  for text emphasis, and yes, such usage is a pet peeve of mine. 🤷‍♂️ 

It is, however, accepted by some authoritative style guides including the MLA, especially the use of single quotes instead of double when it is clear what is meant.
 

https://style.mla.org/quotes-when-nothing-is-being-quoted/

https://www.grammarbook.com/blog/quotation-marks/quotation-marks/

Edited July 25, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

such usage is a pet peeve of mine

People derailing threads to criticize others’ grammar is rapidly developing into a pet peeve of mine.

And bluntly, it seems to violate the spirit of the board rules, if not the letter (and I realize I am as well by doing the same in response):

Quote

 Insulting language, or statements meant to do nothing more than provoke others [critiquing someone’s writing when they haven’t asked you to do so is insulting]…
• Telling others how to behave or “net nannying” (Instead report objectionable content) [critiquing writing is in essence telling someone how to behave to be accepted]
• Derailing threads with irrelevant or unwanted commentary [grammar correction is irrelevant to most topics and is unwanted by a number of readers, including myself]

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Calm

[Amulek]

15 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

What was the prodigal son's name? Where did he live?

I don't know. I haven't made it to that season of The Chosen yet.

 

[Tacenda]

10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Exactly! I edited my post above with these same ideas as you were writing.

This is precisely why, from the very beginning, the key to conversion has always been personal experience. I was not in the grove with Joseph, but I've had my own grove moments. These incline me to accept what Joseph said, but -- and this is key! -- I would still believe what I have experienced even if Joseph fabricated or embellished his stories. My quest for knowledge may have been inspired by what he said, but what I have come to know is independent of his 'history'.

At the same time, there is another principle that applies here, and it's the same one that Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 8 regarding whether the Saints should worry about eating meat that had been sacrificed to false idols:

The 'liberty' of a post-modern approach to narrative is fine ... right up till it becomes a stumblingblock to others who, for whatever reason, may be more reliant (for now) on the 'factual' stories of others.

I can go with a lot of what you say because we're human and often we think something happened and are sure of it, but in reality our mind sometimes plays tricks. The thing that I don't understand sometimes is the constant revelation from God on minute things like land exchanges and different little small things that Joseph had with the Lord in the D&C. But not since him has that happened with the prophets. I mean it'd have been nice to know the big things but I'd accept little too. So I think Joseph just had it in his mind that the Lord wanted him to do certain transactions. And I feel like the visions were in his mind as well and didn't happen in the physical. And during his lifetime there were several people that had visions of Jesus and Heavenly Father appearing to them.

But Joseph did a great job on the setting up of the church so God could very well have had a hand in it. And the LDS people are generally a wonderful people and do much for society so I believe God is totally happy about that. But we're not the only church that does much for society. Joseph used many sources for organizing the church and I think he did it because he wasn't happy with the current status and all the preachers out there telling him things that he couldn't get behind or that weren't in his opinion what a just God would do, such as condemn a child to hell if they weren't baptized.

Our Gospel aligns wonderfully with a just God/Savior most of the time, not all, such as splitting up families in the 3 kingdoms. I believe our religion is a life preserver for those that have horrible situations in life and I'm thankful for the church to be a family to those without one, or a good one. I say our religion because I technically have not left it, maybe I don't deserve the honor to say that though.