Grace, sin, and blessings for righteousness

[bluebell]

52 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

1. A chance for your heart to rest easy regardless of how your morning played out. The important thing is that you still desire to be His the vagaries of your daily existence notwithstanding.

2. Yes, and possibly different/additional ones because of what you did do. But it's not ultimately about the blessings of your praying and reading but rather a result of your heart being His. And let's not forget everything else you were blessed with as you went through your day whether you were cognizant of or whether you 'deserved' the blessings or not - breathing, using your limbs and your senses, being free of debilitating pain/discomfort, not being physiologically/psychologically stressed due to war, financial hardship, disease, drug addiction, etc. You are blessed indeed.

3. Starts to sound too mechanistic for me. As LDS we must resist the tendency to quantify/correlate effort as it relates to perceived/deserved blessings.

4. See #2.

5. See #2.

Your heart is what's most important - not a litmus test of behaviors. He knows you value prayer & scripture reading both in your heart and generally in your behavior.

I did not read anyone else's responses before posting this as I believe it would color my most natural response. Does anyone else ever do this? ; )

Yes I do that too!

Thank you for your answers.  They are helpful.

[bluebell]

54 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

There is the " ox in the mire " reasoning for missing some religious action. That is perfectly acceptable on occasion. If the ox is regularly getting in the mire one may want to look into fixing the fence. It's a whole other problem if one digs a hole and fills it with water and herds the ox towards it. 

Go easy on yourself bluebell, you did more in one day than I now do in a week. I did have a good chuckle at your ( perhaps inadvertent ) choice of language when you said that vacuuming stairs sucks !😉

My husband loves puns and he would have eating that up.  

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, mbh26 said:

Thank you for posting this.  I've wondered the same since I was in primary.  I'm kind of skeptical that anyone knows or can know the exact answer to your question (which was also my question) except the Lord Himself. 

It sounds kind of dumb, but when all of this stuff went through my head today, I felt prompted to share it here and ask for input and it really has been helpful to me.  This is one of those places where I need to learn to see things with new eyes (because my normal eyes miss all of this stuff, which is incredibly annoying to me!) and having other posters share their vision is giving me an example of what a different picture can look like.

I agree it's not an answer to everything grace related, but I feel like it's a good place to begin and practice with.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Your problem stated when you  to commend yourself for doing a good job, not giving God the glory. Then you greatly compounded the original error when you allowed yourself to imagine that God is an unmerciful and petty taskmaster 

That could be the most cynical view I've ever read.

There's no sin in recognizing a job well done.  It's not pride to be pleased by well doing.

And nobody has a perfect view of God's opinions.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

So I just need to repent more?

We all need that.

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

We all need that.

Very true.  But when someone is asking about grace, an answer of 'repent more' doesn't seem like it's the most helpful one.  

[Tacenda]

You sound just like me, the tendency to like to be on this board, binge watch tv etc. But I do get on rolls as well, and tend to get it all knocked out. 

I use to feel guilty for not reading my scriptures, but no longer feel that they come from God like I use to, more from men. And I think God would be fine with you not doing a formal kneel down prayer, but you could speak with Him throughout the day kind of thing, not that I remember to do that, but know I should. And I believe you were God's hands today. That's like worship to me.

[teddyaware]

10 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

That could be the most cynical view I've ever read.

There's no sin in recognizing a job well done.  It's not pride to be pleased by well doing.

And nobody has a perfect view of God's opinions.

Did you read the quote I supplied from the apostle Paul that powerfully underscores the validity of my point? If you did read it but failed to understand what Paul was trying to say, I’ll now supply you with a similar quote from King Benjamin who teaches precisely the same gospel concept…

11 And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, AND YOUR OWN NOTHINGNESS, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, UNWORTHY CREATURES, and humble yourselves even in the DEPTHS OF HUMILITY , calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel.
12 And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true.

So according to both Paul and King Benjamin, the secret to a happy and contented life of dynamic spiritual grown isn’t patting oneself on the back and being self-congratulatory. Rather, it’s humbling yourself to the depths of humility and clearly comprehending your own nothingness and impotence before God in your lost and fallen state, and then sincerely giving him all the glory for your successes. This is not a cynical view because, in reality, it’s by far the most positive view because it’s the only one that guarantees exaltation and the greatest imaginable success. Do you disagree with King Benjamin’s assessment?

And now for the third witness to validate my words. What follows is the testimony of the great prophet Ammon teaching the same principle for happiness and success in the gospel that Paul and King Benjamin taught.

10 And it came to pass that when Ammon had said these words, his brother Aaron rebuked him, saying: Ammon, I fear that thy joy doth carry thee away unto boasting.
11 But Ammon said unto him: I do not boast in my own strength, nor in my own wisdom; but behold, my joy is full, yea, my heart is brim with joy, and I will rejoice in my God.
12 Yea, I know that I AM NOTHING; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things; yea, behold, many mighty miracles we have wrought in this land, for which we will praise his name forever. (Alma 26)

Do you disagree with Ammon?

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by teddyaware

[Meadowchik]

I like what Anne of Green Gables said about going out into a field face up to the sky to just *feel a prayer.* I think that a life lived in concert with the Divine is prayer in action. 

[CV75]

12 hours ago, manol said:

I think there may be a level (inaccessible to us telestials) at which time itself is sufficiently malleable that we can do something akin to "editing the past".  I dunno about you, but I could use some of that!!

Yes, through the merits of our dear Editor!

A couple of things bring this to my mind. One is that time is the same as space (spacetime), which has everything to do with our observation, perception and experience: it is where we are temporally, spiritually, physically, mentally, etc. So, if we fundamentally change, everything else changes for us. Another is that this is a gospel of progress, so  our perceptions change as suggested by Isaiah 1:18: "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." They didn't go away, they just no longer have the impact, meaning and significance. Of course, the verses surrounding this statement of principle, where we change the world around us, are key components to accessing the Editor's grace. One more thing comes from being sealed to my parents in the temple as an adult convert (my mother, not a Church member, had died 20 years before, and my father joined the Church 30 years after I did in his 80s, so we -- my and my brothers' families, who had also joined along the way -- did her temple work and their sealing as husband and wife by proxy once he could go to the temple). I suddenly felt, and still do, as though I we had been sealed all along, all my life. There is nothing more real or actual than perception!

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Did you read the quote I supplied from the apostle Paul that powerfully underscores the validity of my point? If you did read it but failed to understand what Paul was trying to say, I’ll now supply you with a similar quote from King Benjamin who teaches precisely the same gospel concept…

11 And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, AND YOUR OWN NOTHINGNESS, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, UNWORTHY CREATURES, and humble yourselves even in the DEPTHS OF HUMILITY , calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel.
12 And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true.

So according to both Paul and King Benjamin, the secret to a happy and contented life of dynamic spiritual grown isn’t patting oneself on the back and being self-congratulatory. Rather, it’s humbling yourself to the depths of humility and clearly comprehending your own nothingness and impotence before God in your lost and fallen state, and then sincerely giving him all the glory for your successes. This is not a cynical view because, in reality, it’s by far the most positive view because it’s the only one that guarantees exaltation and the greatest imaginable success. Do you disagree with King Benjamin’s assessment?

And now for the third witness to validate my words. What follows is the testimony of the great prophet Ammon teaching the same principle for happiness and success in the gospel that Paul and King Benjamin taught.

10 And it came to pass that when Ammon had said these words, his brother Aaron rebuked him, saying: Ammon, I fear that thy joy doth carry thee away unto boasting.
11 But Ammon said unto him: I do not boast in my own strength, nor in my own wisdom; but behold, my joy is full, yea, my heart is brim with joy, and I will rejoice in my God.
12 Yea, I know that I AM NOTHING; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things; yea, behold, many mighty miracles we have wrought in this land, for which we will praise his name forever. (Alma 26)

Do you disagree with Ammon?

 

Did Joseph Smith disagree with Ammon?

“Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet…When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408)

 

And I don't think bluebell was boasting.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Tacenda

[Peacefully]

39 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Did Joseph Smith disagree with Ammon?

“Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet…When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408)

 

And I don't think bluebell was boasting.

Good one, Tacenda! Just goes to show we can probably find a lot of quotes from scripture and the prophets that contradict each other. 

[teddyaware]

44 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Did Joseph Smith disagree with Ammon?

“Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet…When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408)

 

And I don't think bluebell was boasting.

The prophet Joseph Smith having an temper tantrum because he was understandably outraged after years of endless persecution, doesn’t negate the eternal principles of salvation taught in the scriptures I quoted, and I’m quite certain Joseph would wholeheartedly agree with me. But beside the boastful tone of the outburst, at least he spoke the truth!

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Did Joseph Smith disagree with Ammon?

“Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet…When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408)

 

And I don't think bluebell was boasting.

Thanks Tacenda.  I don't think I was boasting either.  That certainly wasn't my intent.

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I like what Anne of Green Gables said about going out into a field face up to the sky to just *feel a prayer.* I think that a life lived in concert with the Divine is prayer in action. 

Agreed.

[bluebell]

10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

You sound just like me, the tendency to like to be on this board, binge watch tv etc. But I do get on rolls as well, and tend to get it all knocked out. 

I use to feel guilty for not reading my scriptures, but no longer feel that they come from God like I use to, more from men. And I think God would be fine with you not doing a formal kneel down prayer, but you could speak with Him throughout the day kind of thing, not that I remember to do that, but know I should. And I believe you were God's hands today. That's like worship to me.

I rarely kneel down to pray (especially in the morning, when I usually pray in the shower).  I do sometimes but sometimes the prayer formula seems more like a hindrance to my prayers than a help.  It's been hard for me to acknowledge that because, rule follower!, but I'm working on it.

[MustardSeed]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The prophet Joseph Smith having an temper tantrum because he was understandably outraged after years of endless persecution, doesn’t negate the eternal principles of salvation taught in the scriptures I quoted, and I’m quite certain Joseph would wholeheartedly agree with me. But beside the boastful tone of the outburst, at least he spoke the truth!

Are there any scriptures about being critical, or any about being compassionate? Any about showing love? Any about being completely unaware of context or looking on the heart? Good grief. 

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Did you read the quote I supplied from the apostle Paul that powerfully underscores the validity of my point? If you did read it but failed to understand what Paul was trying to say, I’ll now supply you with a similar quote from King Benjamin who teaches precisely the same gospel concept…

11 And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, AND YOUR OWN NOTHINGNESS, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, UNWORTHY CREATURES, and humble yourselves even in the DEPTHS OF HUMILITY , calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel.
12 And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true.

So according to both Paul and King Benjamin, the secret to a happy and contented life of dynamic spiritual grown isn’t patting oneself on the back and being self-congratulatory. Rather, it’s humbling yourself to the depths of humility and clearly comprehending your own nothingness and impotence before God in your lost and fallen state, and then sincerely giving him all the glory for your successes. This is not a cynical view because, in reality, it’s by far the most positive view because it’s the only one that guarantees exaltation and the greatest imaginable success. Do you disagree with King Benjamin’s assessment?

And now for the third witness to validate my words. What follows is the testimony of the great prophet Ammon teaching the same principle for happiness and success in the gospel that Paul and King Benjamin taught.

10 And it came to pass that when Ammon had said these words, his brother Aaron rebuked him, saying: Ammon, I fear that thy joy doth carry thee away unto boasting.
11 But Ammon said unto him: I do not boast in my own strength, nor in my own wisdom; but behold, my joy is full, yea, my heart is brim with joy, and I will rejoice in my God.
12 Yea, I know that I AM NOTHING; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things; yea, behold, many mighty miracles we have wrought in this land, for which we will praise his name forever. (Alma 26)

Do you disagree with Ammon?

 

No, I disagree with your application of these gospel principles to @bluebell's situation.
Her satisfaction with a job well done is not at odds at all with the scriptural instruction to remain humble and grateful to God.
That's a purely pharisaical approach.

Matt 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

[MustardSeed]

I’m a little late to the party but here’s my opinion and it’s just an opinion. I think scripture reading and prayers on a daily basis provide in the long term the basis of a testimony and relationship with God. So for me when I feel blessed by those things it’s rarely a quid pro quo on the daily but more State of mind, which for me is the blessing. I’m terrible at daily Spiritual exercises, And I do think my testimony would be stronger if I was better at it. When my testimony is stronger I do think I feel more peace, and that would be the blessing. As it is, I feel like my life is extremely fulfilling due to my Hummingbird experiences.  This is also a blessing. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by MustardSeed

[Tacenda]

41 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m a little late to the party but here’s my opinion and it’s just an opinion. I think scripture reading and prayers on a daily basis provide in the long term the basis of a testimony and relationship with God. So for me when I feel blessed by those things it’s rarely a quid pro quo on the daily but more State of mind, which for me is the blessing. I’m terrible at daily Spiritual exercises, And I do think my testimony would be stronger if I was better at it. When my testimony is stronger I do think I feel more peace, and that would be the blessing. As it is, I feel like my life is extremely fulfilling due to my Hummingbird experiences.  This is also a blessing. 

Yes, yes, yes!! 

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m a little late to the party but here’s my opinion and it’s just an opinion. I think scripture reading and prayers on a daily basis provide in the long term the basis of a testimony and relationship with God. So for me when I feel blessed by those things it’s rarely a quid pro quo on the daily but more State of mind, which for me is the blessing. I’m terrible at daily Spiritual exercises, And I do think my testimony would be stronger if I was better at it. When my testimony is stronger I do think I feel more peace, and that would be the blessing. As it is, I feel like my life is extremely fulfilling due to my Hummingbird experiences.  This is also a blessing. 

We just called the rehabilitation center for an update and the little guy survived the night and is doing good. He’s in with another hummingbird.  Makes my heart happy.

[bluebell]

23 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

No, I disagree with your application of these gospel principles to @bluebell's situation.
Her satisfaction with a job well done is not at odds at all with the scriptural instruction to remain humble and grateful to God.
That's a purely pharisaical approach.

Matt 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

What Teddy didn't know (because I didn't see any reason to share it) is that I am always grateful to God in prayer (the morning one and the one before bed) for anything that I get done during the day.  I recognize that I can lean towards being less productive and it is one of my weaknesses that I really hate so I talk to Him about it all the time.  I pray for help in the morning and I thank Him every night for helping me get done what I managed to get done.

I also have a personality where clutter or living in a dirty home would give me anxiety and so, despite my general enjoyment of slothfulness, my house is very clean and organized and I thank Him every night for a body that is capable of doing all the cleaning that needs to be done.  Because not being able to do it would be real mental anguish for me.

So Teddy's words didn't cause me any concern.  But I appreciate those posters like you who pushed back against his unrighteous judgements.  He doesn't know what he's talking about and I don't worry about people like that, but other people can be greatly affected by such a lack of charity and voices in support can really help.

[Saint Bonaventure]

I believe that in helping the hummingbird you were in all likelihood giving thanks and praise to God. 

 

[Kenngo1969]

On 7/14/2022 at 6:31 PM, bluebell said:

My husband loves puns and he would have eating that up.  

Never too late to share!  

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

I believe that in helping the hummingbird you were in all likelihood giving thanks and praise to God. 

 

Whether she knew it or not, eh, Bonnie?!