Follow F.A.I.R, They Know the Way

[Fair Dinkum]

Since it's founding in 1830, LDS prophets have declared the reality of a Universal Flood and the reality of a literal Adam and Eve.  They are supported in each of the LDS scriptures in this declaration.  Each of the modern day scriptures, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price , the Book of Abraham and yes even the Doctrine & Covenants each teach to the reality of a literal Adam, Eve and Noah.  I could fill this post with direct quotes from these men in which they declare the literalness of both a universal flood and a literal Adam and Eve.

F.A.I.R however, understanding that science does not support either a literal Adam, Eve or Noah, teaches something quite different from LDS prophets & LDS scripture.  https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Are_Church_members_required_to_believe_in_a_global_flood%3F

 

So sincere question:  Whom do I follow, the prophets or F.A.I.R.?

I'm putting my money on F.A.I.R for being correct on this question...which doesn't say much for why I should follow the prophets on well anything really.  If they were/are wrong on something as simple as this, why should I follow them on anything else?

Edited July 13, 2022 by Fair Dinkum

[CV75]

34 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Since it's founding in 1830, LDS prophets have declared the reality of a Universal Flood and the reality of a literal Adam and Eve.  They are supported in each of the LDS scriptures in this declaration.  Each of the modern day scriptures, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price , the Book of Abraham and yes even the Doctrine & Covenants each teach to the reality of a literal Adam, Eve and Noah.  I could fill this post with direct quotes from these men in which they declare the literalness of both a universal flood and a literal Adam and Eve.

F.A.I.R however, understanding that science does not support either a literal Adam, Eve or Noah, teaches something quite different from LDS prophets & LDS scripture.  https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Are_Church_members_required_to_believe_in_a_global_flood%3F

 

So sincere question:  Whom do I follow, the prophets or F.A.I.R.?

I'm putting my money on F.A.I.R for being correct on this question...which doesn't say much for why I should follow the prophets on well anything really.  If they were/are wrong on something as simple as this, why should I follow them on anything else?

I would say, follow those who possess the keys of the kingdom on spiritual matters, and follow sources of fact on other matters. Both are processed through your brain, but ultimately and relatively-speaking, the things of the kingdom are more important. With the companionship of the Holy Ghost, you will handle covenants and facts alike with grace, and use them for your and others’ benefit. The covenants are more important than those things that people, including prophets, accept as facts, and people can keep these covenants with whatever set of facts they have at their disposal / in their brains.

[ksfisher]

35 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Since it's founding in 1830, LDS prophets have declared the reality of a Universal Flood and the reality of a literal Adam and Eve.  They are supported in each of the LDS scriptures in this declaration.  Each of the modern day scriptures, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price , the Book of Abraham and yes even the Doctrine & Covenants each teach to the reality of a literal Adam, Eve and Noah.  I could fill this post with direct quotes from these men in which they declare the literalness of both a universal flood and a literal Adam and Eve.

F.A.I.R however, understanding that science does not support either a literal Adam, Eve or Noah, teaches something quite different from LDS prophets & LDS scripture.  https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Are_Church_members_required_to_believe_in_a_global_flood%3F

 

So sincere question:  Whom do I follow, the prophets or F.A.I.R.?

I'm putting my money on F.A.I.R for being correct on this question...which doesn't say much for why I should follow the prophets on well anything really.  If they were/are wrong on something as simple as this, why should I follow them on anything else?

Questions

Is a literal flood or literal Adam and Eve necessary to your salvation?  Or is the testimony of Christ as declared by His modern day prophets and apostles what is necessary?

Can science prove or disprove that two people named Adam and Eve lived who made covenants with the Father? 

What does the temple teach us and the symbolic nature of Adam and Eve's story?

 

 

[Fair Dinkum]

15 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I would say, follow those who possess the keys of the kingdom on spiritual matters, and follow sources of fact on other matters. Both are processed through your brain, but ultimately and relatively-speaking, the things of the kingdom are more important. With the companionship of the Holy Ghost, you will handle covenants and facts alike with grace, and use them for your and others’ benefit. The covenants are more important than those things that people, including prophets, accept as facts, and people can keep these covenants with whatever set of facts they have at their disposal / in their brains.

So you are fine with so called prophets teaching falsehoods?

[T-Shirt]

52 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

F.A.I.R however, understanding that science does not support either a literal Adam, Eve or Noah, teaches something quite different from LDS prophets & LDS scripture.  

Where does F.A.I.R. claim they do not support a literal Adam, Eve or Noah?

Edited July 13, 2022 by T-Shirt

[Fair Dinkum]

6 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Questions

Is a literal flood or literal Adam and Eve necessary to your salvation?  Or is the testimony of Christ as declared by His modern day prophets and apostles what is necessary?

Can science prove or disprove that two people named Adam and Eve lived who made covenants with the Father? 

What does the temple teach us and the symbolic nature of Adam and Eve's story?

 

 

I believe it is because it goes to the very credibility of both LDS scripture and these prophets.  Can we really follow and accept what they say about salvation or anything else if  they can't even get something as false as a universal flood or the origins of man correct. 

[Fair Dinkum]

5 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

Where does F.A.I.R. claim they do not support a literal Adam, Eve or Noah?

Oh they massage the reality of Adam, Eve and Noah by peeling away the provable falsehoods such a universal flood or excusing death before the fall by now allowing for evolution as God's tool to create mankind. But that is in direct conflict with prophetic announcements on the subject

Edited July 13, 2022 by Fair Dinkum

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Since it's founding in 1830, LDS prophets have declared the reality of a Universal Flood and the reality of a literal Adam and Eve.  They are supported in each of the LDS scriptures in this declaration.  Each of the modern day scriptures, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price , the Book of Abraham and yes even the Doctrine & Covenants each teach to the reality of a literal Adam, Eve and Noah.  I could fill this post with direct quotes from these men in which they declare the literalness of both a universal flood and a literal Adam and Eve.

F.A.I.R however, understanding that science does not support either a literal Adam, Eve or Noah, teaches something quite different from LDS prophets & LDS scripture.  https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Are_Church_members_required_to_believe_in_a_global_flood%3F

 

So sincere question:  Whom do I follow, the prophets or F.A.I.R.?

I'm putting my money on F.A.I.R for being correct on this question...which doesn't say much for why I should follow the prophets on well anything really.  If they were/are wrong on something as simple as this, why should I follow them on anything else?

You've lost me.

Someone asked FAIR if members are required to believe in the global flood and they answered "no it's not a requirement for salvation" and you decide that that means that we either have to follow FAIR or the prophets?

I'm not following the process of thought you used to get from one to the other.

To the bold question though, that's a testimony issue.  Someone should follow them because they believe God has asked them to.  Any other reason and it'll always come up short in the end.

 

[ksfisher]

13 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I believe it is because it goes to the very credibility of both LDS scripture and these prophets.  Can we really follow and accept what they say about salvation or anything else if  they can't even get something as false as a universal flood or the origins of man correct. 

So knowing the history of the world is a prerequisite for you to trust a prophets witness of Christ. 

Fortunately, for me, it's not.

 

Long ago I realized that my parents weren't perfect (I'm 54 now).   I remember focusing on the things they got wrong and using that as an excuse to discard other things they were trying to teach me.  Since then I've realized that if I had followed their advice, despite their imperfections, that many things in my life would have gone a lot smoother.  I've realized, as I've been a parent to 4 children, that I've had to continue to learn and grow.  I appreciate when my children cut me some slack and don't immediately discard what I say today because I got something wrong yesterday.  Maybe we need to cut the Lord's apostles a little slack.

[Calm]

FairDinkum, at this point in your life, are you a believing member?  I may have mixed you up with another, so please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe your past posts left me with the impression you did not believe anymore.  I ask because the question as framed, should you choose the prophets or FAIR is really irrelevant if you wouldn’t choose to follow the prophets in much of anything to begin with. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

Where does F.A.I.R. claim they do not support a literal Adam, Eve or Noah?

We don’t claim that.

As far as I know the majority of FAIR members, if not all, believe in a literal Adam and Eve, and Noah. Many of us may not see them as identical to the traditional view, but some do. Myself, I see Adam and Eve as the first couple to establish a covenant with God in terms of the temple. Noah I believe likely a massive local flood, but haven’t settled in anything else. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Calm

[T-Shirt]

17 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Oh they massage the reality of Adam, Eve and Noah by peeling away the provable falsehoods such a universal flood or excusing death before the fall by now allowing for evolution as God's tool to create mankind. But that is in direct conflict with prophetic announcements on the subject

Nowhere does F.A.I.R. state that Adam, Eve and Noah were not literal beings, so your strawman argument was a swing and a miss.  You can safely follow both F.A.I.R. and Latter-day Saint prophets on this.

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, bluebell said:

we either have to follow FAIR or the prophets?

FAIR follows modern prophets and scripture and ancient prophets in the way that they claim to be acting, not with false paradigms imposed by Protestant interpretations. This position includes allowing members to hold their own interpretations of nonsalvific teachings as is consistent with how prophets hold us accountable in our faith. We don’t insist we are correct and the only true interpretation of scripture. 

[Calm]

To save time and effort, it is not necessary to put the periods between the letters. I don’t think we ever followed that usage.  

[Kenngo1969]

It's always entertaining to have you around, Mr. Dinkum.  I was disappointed when, essentially, you swore off the board and said you were moving on.  (It's like Crack.  You may say you're quitting for good, buuuuut ... )

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

So sincere question: [...]

Is it though?

Because this sounds an awful lot like a lot of your old threads where you would basically just post your thinly veiled criticisms against the church in question format.

 

[CA Steve]

I must of missed the official list showing exactly what is and what is not "essential to salvation."

Maybe someone can post it so we can all stop discussing anything not included. Afterall everything else is just not worth discussing, amirite?

 

And, can we just lock any threads where we suspect the Op of being a critic?  Obviously, there is no reason to discuss something coming from a critical source.

Edited July 13, 2022 by CA Steve

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Since it's founding in 1830, LDS prophets have declared the reality of a Universal Flood and the reality of a literal Adam and Eve. 

CFR, please as to each prophet's declarations about "the reality of a Universal Flood."

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

They are supported in each of the LDS scriptures in this declaration. 

From FAIR: "Whether the Flood covered the entire earth at once, multiple smaller floods happened over a period of time, a localized flood happened, or no flood at all occured makes no difference."

Personally, I have some difficulty with the "or no flood at all" bit, but I think these other alternative approaches are also "supported" in scripture.

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Each of the modern day scriptures, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price , the Book of Abraham and yes even the Doctrine & Covenants each teach to the reality of a literal Adam, Eve and Noah.

I'll go along with that.

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I could fill this post with direct quotes from these men in which they declare the literalness of both a universal flood and a literal Adam and Eve.

Not sure about the "universal flood" part.

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

F.A.I.R however, understanding that science does not support either a literal Adam, Eve or Noah, teaches something quite different from LDS prophets & LDS scripture.  https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Are_Church_members_required_to_believe_in_a_global_flood%3F

Not sure about that.  See here: Mormonism and the reconciliation of the Flood of Noah with scripture and Church teachings

And here: Question: Why does the Church teach that the flood was a global event?

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

So sincere question:  Whom do I follow, the prophets or F.A.I.R.?

I'll first need to see the evidentiary basis for your juxtaposition, then we can talk.

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I'm putting my money on F.A.I.R for being correct on this question...

"This question" being . . .?

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

which doesn't say much for why I should follow the prophets on well anything really. 

Regarding the Flood, I am okay with the idea of

• A) ancient and modern prophets and apostles
• B) speaking with limited and/or not-pristinely-accurate-and-correct information about
• C) an event that happened centuries before they were born, and
• D) the specific particulars and parameters of which event are not essential to my salvation.

Similarly, I am open to the possibility that Job was an ahistorical figure.  

Such accommodation is not, I think, infinite.  For example, I can't get on board with Jesus Christ being only a mythical/metaphorical figure.  I'm not sure about the "no flood of any type ever happened at all" argument, either.  And the "pious fraud"/"inspired fiction" approach to the Book of Mormon is, for me, an nonstarter.

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

If they were/are wrong on something as simple as this, why should I follow them on anything else?

So . . . perfection.  That's your benchmark?  The only way a prophet could be a prophet would be for him to never make a mistake about anything, ever?

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 13, 2022 by smac97

[Kenngo1969]

More thinking is required, and we should all exercise our God-given right to think and be unafraid to express our opinions, with proper respect for those to whom we talk and proper acknowledgment of our own shortcomings. We must preserve freedom of the mind in the church and resist all efforts to suppress it. The church is not so much concerned with whether the thoughts of its members are orthodox or heterodox as it is that they shall have thoughts.

     —Hugh B. Brown

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I must of missed the official list showing exactly what is and what is not "essential to salvation."

Maybe someone can post it so we can all stop discussing anything not included. Afterall everything else is just not worth discussing, amirite?

Temple recommend questions in my view.

[smac97]

57 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

So you are fine with so called prophets teaching falsehoods?

"Falsehoods" seems to suggest an intent to deceive.  Is that your intent?

Thanks,

-Smac

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, CA Steve said:

I must of missed the official list showing exactly what is and what is not "essential to salvation."

Maybe someone can post it so we can all stop discussing anything not included. Afterall everything else is just not worth discussing, amirite?

The OP wasn't asking what was worth discussing, but who was worth following.

 

As for what is or isn't "essential to salvation" Christ had this to say when He was asked the same question:

17 ¶ And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none ^agood but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit ^aadultery, Do not ^bkill, Do not ^csteal, Do not bear false witness, ^dDefraud not, ^eHonour thy father and mother.

20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and ^agive to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and ^bfollow me.

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

Mark 10 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/mark/10?lang=eng

So instead of asking for an official list perhaps one would ask themselves what they are willing, or unwilling, to give away for the sake of their own salvation.

[smac97]

53 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Quote

Where does F.A.I.R. claim they do not support a literal Adam, Eve or Noah?

Oh they massage the reality of Adam, Eve and Noah by peeling away the provable falsehoods such a universal flood or excusing death before the fall by now allowing for evolution as God's tool to create mankind. But that is in direct conflict with prophetic announcements on the subject

Not sure about that.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

12 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Is it though?

Because this sounds an awful lot like a lot of your old threads where you would basically just post your thinly veiled criticisms against the church in question format.

Yeah, your "Whom do I follow, the prophets or F.A.I.R.?" question doesn't seem to be posed in good faith, FD.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Kenngo1969]

“I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled.”

     —Joseph Smith Jr.