A doctrine quiz or how we forget basic things over time.

[Metis_LDS]

This really happened to me.

I was on Family Search and I formed an idea, a statement if you will. My thought was:

"Every soul living or dead will have to pass through the Temple."

I was quite pleased with myself and the statement. The Lord then showed forth mercy

on a foolish old man and sent the spirit to tell me that the statement was not really correct.

I was very stunned,  but then found the error.  I preach no mystery, there is sound church

doctrine to prove the statement wrong.  Who can find it first?

 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

This really happened to me.

I was on Family Search and I formed an idea, a statement if you will. My thought was:

"Every soul living or dead will have to pass through the Temple."

I was quite pleased with myself and the statement. The Lord then showed forth mercy

on a foolish old man and sent the spirit to tell me that the statement was not really correct.

I was very stunned,  but then found the error.  I preach no mystery, there is sound church

doctrine to prove the statement wrong.  Who can find it first?

 

Not me, but here's how I would put it: "Every soul, living [by themselves] or dead [by proxy], will have to pass through [accept] the Temple [ordinances in order to…]".

[longview]

First Nephi Chapter Eight clearly delineates that of the four groups described, only two will be on the covenant path.  One will remain forever true, the other will walk away ashamed.  The 3rd group will be baptized but never reach the Tree of Life.  The 4th group will completely ignore the path (baptism) and go straight to that Great and Spacious Building.

It is interesting how the four groups correspond with Jesus' parable of the sower (four kinds of ground).

Edited May 31, 2022 by longview

[Metis_LDS]

Good posts so far.  But no win. If it is too hard I can give a clue, but for now lets wait and see.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Metis_LDS

[bluebell]

5 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

This really happened to me.

I was on Family Search and I formed an idea, a statement if you will. My thought was:

"Every soul living or dead will have to pass through the Temple."

I was quite pleased with myself and the statement. The Lord then showed forth mercy

on a foolish old man and sent the spirit to tell me that the statement was not really correct.

I was very stunned,  but then found the error.  I preach no mystery, there is sound church

doctrine to prove the statement wrong.  Who can find it first?

 

My first thought was that children who die before the age of 8 will not have receive any temple ordinances to be exalted.  But, those not born in the covenant are still sealed to their families in temples so I'm not sure if that counts.

[Metis_LDS]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

My first thought was that children who die before the age of 8 will not have receive any temple ordinances to be exalted.  But, those not born in the covenant are still sealed to their families in temples so I'm not sure if that counts.

AND WE HAVE A WINNER,  A child born in the covenant (children born to parents who have been sealed) are automatically sealed to their parents.  So this type of person never enters the Temple while living (no need) and if they die before the age of 8 years old there is no ordinance done by proxy as they are already sealed to their parents.  They derive their blessing from the Temple never passing through the Temple while alive or for the dead.

[Amulek]

5 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

"Every soul living or dead will have to pass through the Temple."

Pass through the temple for what purpose?

If you are talking about the need to receive saving ordinances, then no - this is not required of every soul, at least not according to our understanding of the gospel currently. Those who are not accountable and those who die before the age of accountability are not required to pass through the temple in order to be saved.

But what about sealing families together? Does that count as "pass[ing] through the Temple?" If so, then that might be an exception perhaps - though an exception to the exception would perhaps be with respect to Jesus and (speculatively) the Holy Ghost.

 

[JAHS]

3 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

AND WE HAVE A WINNER,  A child born in the covenant (children born to parents who have been sealed) are automatically sealed to their parents.  So this type of person never enters the Temple while living (no need) and if they die before the age of 8 years old there is no ordinance done by proxy as they are already sealed to their parents.  They derive their blessing from the Temple never passing through the Temple while alive or for the dead.

It seems though at some time they will need to be sealed to an eternal companion in order to be exalted and have eternal increase. Where will that happen if not in a temple?

 

[Metis_LDS]

2 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Those who are not accountable and those who die before the age of accountability are not required to pass through the temple in order to be saved.

Correct but Bluebell already got it.   My understanding of  "Those who are not accountable" would still need to sealed to their parents after death if it was not done as a child.

[Metis_LDS]

4 minutes ago, JAHS said:

It seems though at some time they will need to be sealed to an eternal companion in order to be exalted and have eternal increase. Where will that happen if not in a temple?

 

Good idea but I said there was no mystery,  this is a mystery (no clear guidance about how it would be done).

[JAHS]

21 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

Good idea but I said there was no mystery,  this is a mystery (no clear guidance about how it would be done).

Right, but somehow it will be done. 

President Joseph Fielding Smith once said:

"The Lord will grant unto these children the privilege of all the sealing blessings which pertain to exaltation.
We were all mature spirits before we were born, and the bodies of little children will grow after resurrection to the full stature of the spirit, and all the blessings will be theirs through their obedience the same as if they had lived to maturity and received them on the earth.
The Lord is just and will not deprive any person of a blessing, simply because he died before that blessing can be received. It would be manifestly unfair to deprive a little child of the privilege of receiving all the blessings of exaltation in the world to come simply because it died in infancy." (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2)

[manol]

53 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

AND WE HAVE A WINNER,  A child born in the covenant (children born to parents who have been sealed) are automatically sealed to their parents.  So this type of person never enters the Temple while living (no need) and if they die before the age of 8 years old there is no ordinance done by proxy as they are already sealed to their parents.  They derive their blessing from the Temple never passing through the Temple while alive or for the dead.

Yes!!

So if "all are alike unto God" (2 Nephi 26:33) and "God is no respecter of persons" (Acts 10:34; Romans 2:11), how is it fair to the rest of us that those who happen to die before a certain age are automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom (D&C 137:10)?

Edited May 31, 2022 by manol

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, manol said:

Yes!!

So if "all are alike unto God" (2 Nephi 26:33) and "God is no respecter of persons" (Acts 10:34; Romans 2:11), how is it fair to the rest of us that children who die before a certain age are automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom (D&C 137:10)?

Because the preexistence is factored in. When we are able to see "one eternal round," it won't seem unfair at all.

It actually doesn't seem unfair to me anyway. I wouldn't trade the experiences of earth life for a "sure thing." I'm grateful that earth life is part of my experience, even when it isn't required for everyone.

[JAHS]

15 minutes ago, manol said:

Yes!!

So if "all are alike unto God" (2 Nephi 26:33) and "God is no respecter of persons" (Acts 10:34; Romans 2:11), how is it fair to the rest of us that those who happen to die before a certain age are automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom (D&C 137:10)?

Nothing known about this except that these children must be considered a special case:
In a Sermon given by Joseph Smith, Jr., March 20, 1842, referring to a young child that had just died he said:

"The Lord takes many away even in infancy that they may escape the envy of man, and the sorrows and evils of this present world--they were too lovely and too pure to live on earth. (The Words of Joseph Smith, pp. 106-1

So perhaps they don't need to be tested like we are and that doesn't bother me a bit.

Edited May 31, 2022 by JAHS

[Metis_LDS]

5 minutes ago, manol said:

Yes!!

So if "all are alike unto God" (2 Nephi 26:33) and "God is no respecter of persons" (Acts 10:34; Romans 2:11), how is it fair to the rest of us that those who happen to die before a certain age are automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom (D&C 137:10)?

If you do Family Search work in Quebec Canada in the 1800's there are many of child deaths under 8 years old, some families are 50% or more.

I have no answer to your question,  I have learned that human fairness and God's fairness do not align very well.

[manol]

27 minutes ago, rongo said:

Because the preexistence is factored in. When we are able to see "one eternal round," it won't seem unfair at all.

It actually doesn't seem unfair to me anyway. I wouldn't trade the experiences of earth life for a "sure thing." I'm grateful that earth life is part of my experience, even when it isn't required for everyone.

So let me pose a follow-up question:  Suppose this child goes on to become a God, a creator of worlds, upon which spirit children are expected to slog it out through the experience of mortality (which you have said is more valuable to you than a "sure thing" would be)... and yet this God NEVER actually "walked the walk"?  To me, that does not seem consistent with the plan of eternal progression.

23 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Nothing known about this except that these children must be considered a special case:
In a Sermon given by Joseph Smith, Jr., March 20, 1842, referring to a young child that had just died he said:

"The Lord takes many away even in infancy that they may escape the envy of man, and the sorrows and evils of this present world--they were too lovely and too pure to live on earth. (The Words of Joseph Smith, pp. 106-1

I understand that line of thinking, and for many years that was what I thought, but are not "special cases" inconsistent with a God who is "no respecter of persons" and unto whom "all are alike"?   

23 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

I have no answer to your question,  I have learned that human fairness and God's fairness do not align very well.

I am not aware of an answer to my question that comes from "inside the box"... imo the answer(s) may lie "outside the box".  

Regarding fairness, ime when our best understanding leads to the conclusion that "God is not fair", we have reached that conclusion based on either faulty or incomplete information. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by manol

[Metis_LDS]

2 minutes ago, manol said:

So let me pose a follow-up question:  Suppose this child goes on to become a God, a creator of worlds, upon which spirit children are expected to slog it out through the experience of mortality (which you have said is more valuable to you than a "sure thing" would be)... and yet this God NEVER actually "walked the walk"?  To me, that does not seem consistent with the plan of eternal progression.

I see when it comes to thinking you are no lightweight.  The problem is it is hard to quantify suffering and experience apart from a checklist.

[teddyaware]

8 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

This really happened to me.

I was on Family Search and I formed an idea, a statement if you will. My thought was:

"Every soul living or dead will have to pass through the Temple."

I was quite pleased with myself and the statement. The Lord then showed forth mercy

on a foolish old man and sent the spirit to tell me that the statement was not really correct.

I was very stunned,  but then found the error.  I preach no mystery, there is sound church

doctrine to prove the statement wrong.  Who can find it first?

 

Not exactly sure what you’re looking for because you were correct in the first place,  but the following verses from Doctrine and Covenants 138 make it abundantly clear the every man and woman who ever lived, including those wicked and rebellious souls in the days of Noah who rejected the prophets and gospel, are all going to be offered salvation through the vicariously performed saving ordinances of the temple. I will highlight the most pertinent passages:

28 And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had REJECTED THE TRUTH, to teach them;
30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, EVEN TO ALL THE SPIRITS OF MEN; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.
31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.
32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.
33 These (the wicked and rebellious who had previously rejected the gospel) were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, VICARIOUS BAPTISM FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS,
34 AND ALL OTHER PRINCIPLES OF THE GOSPL that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

Edited May 31, 2022 by teddyaware

[Metis_LDS]

1 minute ago, teddyaware said:

Not exactly sure what you’re looking for because you were correct in the first place

Thanks, please see Bluebell posts and mine right after explaining why she won the Quiz.

[JAHS]

22 minutes ago, manol said:

I understand that line of thinking, and for many years that was what I thought, but are not "special cases" inconsistent with a God who is "no respecter of persons" and unto whom "all are alike"?   

I don't think it falls under the "no respecter of persons" situation.  "Special case" in the sense that what they did in premortality made it possible for them to not have to be tested and tried like we are. In the same way that some spirits were selected to be leaders of the church in the premortal life because of who they were or what they did (foreordinatiion).  

[rongo]

33 minutes ago, manol said:

So let me pose a follow-up question:  Suppose this child goes on to become a God, a creator of worlds, upon which spirit children are expected to slog it out through the experience of mortality (which you have said is more valuable to you than a "sure thing" would be)... and yet this God NEVER actually "walked the walk"?  To me, that does not seem consistent with the plan of eternal progression.

Mileage will vary on this "open question" of course, and there is disagreement and differences of opinion. My reading of the King Follett Discourse, the Sermon in the Grove, and Orson Pratt's talk on assignment from Brigham Young that was the first official public treatment of the rationale behind polygamy (near Journal of Discourses 1:60 or so) is that only Saviors become "head Gods." Under this, Elohim was a Savior, and Jehovah will become an Elohim. Exalted men and women (gods) assist with creation and provide spirit children for the Elohim. Under this understanding, looking at it from a perspective of "they didn't have the full range of mortal experience" is less of a concern, since "God's" experience wasn't exactly "mortal," either.

In my experience, most people who don't like this idea don't like the thought that they might not be able to become an Elohim. There is a wide range of thought on this, with nothing official.

Edited May 31, 2022 by rongo

[Metis_LDS]

31 minutes ago, rongo said:

In my experience, most people who don't like this idea don't like the thought that they might not be able to become an Elohim.

Just curious why would be the reasons why some might not be able to become an Elohim.

This is more for me to try and understand what you stated.

[manol]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

Mileage will vary on this "open question" of course, and there is disagreement and differences of opinion...

Agreed!  Imo this is an area where we do not have a complete and clear picture laid out for us. 

2 hours ago, rongo said:

... Under this understanding, looking at it from a perspective of "they didn't have the full range of mortal experience" is less of a concern, since "God's" experience wasn't exactly "mortal," either.

Seems to me the King Follet Sermon says the Father had a mortal existence:  "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in
yonder heavens!... God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did."

2 hours ago, rongo said:

My reading of the King Follett Discourse, the Sermon in the Grove, and Orson Pratt's talk on assignment from Brigham Young that was the first official public treatment of the rationale behind polygamy (near Journal of Discourses 1:60 or so) is that only Saviors become "head Gods." 

On the other hand, while it may seem incredible from where we are today, are we not called to be the same manner of men (and women) that Jesus Christ is?  

"What manner of men ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am."  - Jesus Christ (3 Nephi 27:27)

I'm NOT saying that these various perceptions are necessarily incompatible, when seen from a higher (but not yet articulated to us) perspective!  

Joseph Smith made an interesting statement shortly before he was killed:  "By proving contraries, truth is made manifest."  I THINK he was saying that by contemplating and struggling to reconcile the seemingly contradictory and paradoxical, that our understanding may go UP to a higher level, and thereby "truth is made manifest".  

(By way of example, perhaps Joseph was contemplating the paradox of a God who is "no respecter of persons" versus baptism being necessary yet only available to a fortunate few, when his understanding was elevated to a higher level from which he understood the heretofore hidden implication of 1 Corinthians 15:29.)

Edited May 31, 2022 by manol

[let’s roll]

3 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

AND WE HAVE A WINNER,  A child born in the covenant (children born to parents who have been sealed) are automatically sealed to their parents.  So this type of person never enters the Temple while living (no need) and if they die before the age of 8 years old there is no ordinance done by proxy as they are already sealed to their parents.  They derive their blessing from the Temple never passing through the Temple while alive or for the dead.

Wouldn’t this also apply to those who live past the age of 8 but whose mental development never reaches the level required to be accountable.

[Metis_LDS]

28 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Wouldn’t this also apply to those who live past the age of 8 but whose mental development never reaches the level required to be accountable.

My understanding (I could be wrong) is that it is taught we are all going to somehow be sealed to our family (for some this will be sorted out in the afterlife because of problems her on earth).   Those who mature in their body but not their mind (in other words stay innocent) will still have to be sealed to their family just as an innocent child under the age of eight would be.  There are three ways to seal children.  Number 1 you take them to the Temple and have a living sealing,  Number 2 you have a sealing by proxy after they have past on.  Number 3 The child is born to parents who have been sealed in the Temple before the birth.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Metis_LDS
grammar