bluebell Posted May 30, 2022 Posted May 30, 2022 15 minutes ago, Chum said: If the War On Terror taught us anything it's that extremely unlikely scenarios are a terrible premise to base policy on. Very little that followed 9/11 serves to keep us safer in any meaningful way. To be fair, nothing could budge a needle that had already been at historic lows for generations. We are a reactionary society. Something horrible happens and we react by making laws that would have been great to have had before that one horrible specific past event. But we suck at doing anything about blind spots before criminals exploit them. 2
bluebell Posted May 30, 2022 Posted May 30, 2022 1 hour ago, Chum said: Young men can be quite malleable. Among the possible strong influences that could shape them are toxic websites, military stewardship or the pain carry around inside themselves. All young people are malleable and susceptible to poor influences, but those with trauma are even more so. Maladaptive coping strategies can do a lot of damage. 1
The Nehor Posted May 31, 2022 Posted May 31, 2022 4 hours ago, Calm said: They are supervised with their guns in the military. I think that makes a big difference. They also receive extensive, structured training that is substantially different than when they go down to the local gun store. Are they allowed to take their guns off base or when on leave? If not, it is not the same thing. This is anecdotal but I have heard it from multiple sources from ex-military who worked in combat jobs in Afghanistan or Iraq and later went into law enforcement. They were shocked at the lack of trigger discipline and the incredibly loose rules of engagement. I find that more than a little horrifying. The military has tighter controls of when you should and should not fire your weapon in a literal war zone than US patrol cops policing civilians do. We also need to END the “killer cop” consultants that promise to keep cops alive by getting them to take no chances. They scare their trainees and basically get them to adopt a sociopathic view of the people and society they are supposed to be protecting. https://www.businessinsider.com/us-police-trained-for-war-not-protect-their-communities-2021-4 1
provoman Posted May 31, 2022 Posted May 31, 2022 (edited) 2019 Uniform Crime Report Table 20 13,927 murders Weapon used - Firearm - 10,825 Handgun - 6,368 Rifle - 364 Shotgun - 200 Firearm type unknown - 3,326 Edited May 31, 2022 by provoman 1
Tacenda Posted May 31, 2022 Posted May 31, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, Amulek said: And by "someone as young as 18" you mean...an adult, right? What exactly do you mean by "rapid fire?" As a general rule, there are three different kinds of firearms: Single shot Semi-automatic Fully automatic Single shot is the mode of operation where a weapon has no magazine and may contain only a single cartridge, loaded directly into the chamber. The gun must be manually reloaded and manually re-cocked every time it is fired. You most commonly find this setup on simple shotguns, certain high caliber hunting rifles, and sometimes on large hunting handguns as well. Semi-automatic is the mode of operation of a pistol, rifle, or shotgun whereupon the trigger is pulled and a single shot is fired. Energy from firing is then used to reload the chamber and reset the firing mechanism for another trigger pull. Can also be termed “self-loading.” Fully automatic is the mode of operation of a firearm whereupon the trigger is pulled and multiple shots are fired and will continue to fire until the trigger is released or until the magazine is empty. This mode of operation is extremely rare, heavily federally regulated and impossible for private citizens to purchase in a regular gun shop or at a gun show. The weapons used by the shooter in Texas were both semi-automatic rifles. They aren't capable of firing any more rapidly than pretty much any other pistol or rifle available on the market today. https://www.npr.org/2022/05/26/1101274322/uvalde-ar-15-style-rifle-history-shooter-mass-shooting Amulek, you surely had to know this. Such AR-15-style weapons are semiautomatic, meaning a shooter must pull the trigger to fire each shot from a magazine that typically carries 30 rounds. Also, the below... https://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/ar-15-bump-fire-legal/ Bump fire devices let black rifles fire hundreds of rounds per minute. They've become hot accessories for the growing tactical weapons set. Edited May 31, 2022 by Tacenda
The Nehor Posted May 31, 2022 Posted May 31, 2022 52 minutes ago, Tacenda said: https://www.npr.org/2022/05/26/1101274322/uvalde-ar-15-style-rifle-history-shooter-mass-shooting Amulek, you surely had to know this. Such AR-15-style weapons are semiautomatic, meaning a shooter must pull the trigger to fire each shot from a magazine that typically carries 30 rounds. Also, the below... https://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/ar-15-bump-fire-legal/ Bump fire devices let black rifles fire hundreds of rounds per minute. They've become hot accessories for the growing tactical weapons set. Gotta get the accessories.
Amulek Posted May 31, 2022 Posted May 31, 2022 17 hours ago, Calm said: In legal terms only, except in 3 states. But just because someone is an adult legally, there are still age restrictions in many cases as it is easily recognized that legal adulthood doesn’t equal being a responsible human being. Federal law restricts the purchase of handguns for citizens under the age of 21. A handful of states have attempted to raise the minimum age for rifles as well - though such laws are currently being challenged in the courts. I'm skeptical that such policies have had any meaningful impact on gun violence, and I'm even more skeptical that the complete prohibition on the sale of firearms to 18-20 year olds would even be Constitutionally permissible.
Amulek Posted May 31, 2022 Posted May 31, 2022 6 hours ago, Tacenda said: https://www.npr.org/2022/05/26/1101274322/uvalde-ar-15-style-rifle-history-shooter-mass-shooting Amulek, you surely had to know this. Such AR-15-style weapons are semiautomatic, meaning a shooter must pull the trigger to fire each shot from a magazine that typically carries 30 rounds. Yes, semi-automatic means you have to pull the trigger each time you want to fire a round. As such, the rifle used by the shooter in Texas was incapable of firing any more rapidly than any other gun around that day. 6 hours ago, Tacenda said: Also, the below... https://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/ar-15-bump-fire-legal/ Bump fire devices let black rifles fire hundreds of rounds per minute. They've become hot accessories for the growing tactical weapons set. And surely you know that (1) bump stocks have been illegal since 2019 and (2) the shooter in Uvalde bought his guns from a regular sporting good store within the last month; therefore this has nothing to do with the story at all. 1
Tacenda Posted May 31, 2022 Posted May 31, 2022 2 hours ago, Amulek said: Yes, semi-automatic means you have to pull the trigger each time you want to fire a round. As such, the rifle used by the shooter in Texas was incapable of firing any more rapidly than any other gun around that day. And surely you know that (1) bump stocks have been illegal since 2019 and (2) the shooter in Uvalde bought his guns from a regular sporting good store within the last month; therefore this has nothing to do with the story at all. Not a gun expert, sorry about that, but you left out that each time you pull the trigger multiple people can die, and according to the article the Texas shooter pulled the trigger once and it shot 30 times. For anyone to be able to buy such a thing, we then have a national problem.
Tacenda Posted May 31, 2022 Posted May 31, 2022 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ar-15-mass-shootings-60-minutes-2022-05-29/ How can this be okay for anyone to own an AR gun that can wipe out so many people in a minute. What is wrong with people? These guns are so easy for anyone to buy. Don't tell me people care about human life when these are sold so easily and they are okay with it.
Amulek Posted May 31, 2022 Posted May 31, 2022 18 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Not a gun expert, sorry about that [...] I understand. Lots of people are unfamiliar with guns, and that lack of experience can sometimes be a source of confusion in these discussions. 18 minutes ago, Tacenda said: [Y]ou left out that each time you pull the trigger multiple people can die, [...] I don't believe I left anything out but yes, it is possible for a single bullet to kill multiple people. However, I don't think that is what you were referring to, as evidenced by the remainder of your quote, here: 18 minutes ago, Tacenda said: [...] and according to the article the Texas shooter pulled the trigger once and it shot 30 times. That's not what the article you quoted says. The article states (correctly) that these kinds of rifles are "semiautomatic, meaning a shooter must pull the trigger to fire each shot from a magazine that typically carries 30 rounds." The only way to get a semi-automatic weapon to shoot 30 times is for the operator to pull the trigger 30 times. 18 minutes ago, Tacenda said: For anyone to be able to buy such a thing, we then have a national problem. I believe you are talking about fully automatic weapons here. Just so you know, people can obtain fully automatic weapons in America, but they have been out of production for decades now and are heavily regulated, so pretty much nobody other than wealthy gun collectors have them. And if memory serves, there have only been one or two incidents in recorded history where legally owned fully automatic weapons were used in a crime.
Tacenda Posted May 31, 2022 Posted May 31, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Amulek said: I understand. Lots of people are unfamiliar with guns, and that lack of experience can sometimes be a source of confusion in these discussions. I don't believe I left anything out but yes, it is possible for a single bullet to kill multiple people. However, I don't think that is what you were referring to, as evidenced by the remainder of your quote, here: That's not what the article you quoted says. The article states (correctly) that these kinds of rifles are "semiautomatic, meaning a shooter must pull the trigger to fire each shot from a magazine that typically carries 30 rounds." The only way to get a semi-automatic weapon to shoot 30 times is for the operator to pull the trigger 30 times. I believe you are talking about fully automatic weapons here. Just so you know, people can obtain fully automatic weapons in America, but they have been out of production for decades now and are heavily regulated, so pretty much nobody other than wealthy gun collectors have them. And if memory serves, there have only been one or two incidents in recorded history where legally owned fully automatic weapons were used in a crime. Wait, I'm confused. The trigger is pulled once and 30 bullets go out don't they? ETA: Nevermind, that was very naive of me. I guess one trigger won't release 30 bullets. But the ease and swiftness allows 30 bullets to be ignited with the same velocity. Edited May 31, 2022 by Tacenda
bluebell Posted May 31, 2022 Posted May 31, 2022 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: Wait, I'm confused. The trigger is pulled once and 30 bullets go out don't they? ETA: Nevermind, that was very naive of me. I guess one trigger won't release 30 bullets. But the ease and swiftness allows 30 bullets to be ignited with the same velocity. Right. One trigger pull only releases one bullet, but the next bullet is ready to go immediately without the person firing needing to do anything specific to load it into the chamber. That's what semi-automatic means. 2
mtomm Posted June 1, 2022 Posted June 1, 2022 Gun free zones: Eh. I'm not convinced that those looking to do these On 5/26/2022 at 11:14 PM, The Nehor said: We can do two things at once. Hell, we can do more than two. We can also massively expand mental health resources to try to prevent this from happening. We could require psychological screenings to own weapons. We could do all kinds of things. We won’t because our weapons are more sacred to us. The other thing is WE HAVE been tightening security at schools for years. They have drills. They run scenarios. It is not helping. This school did have tightened security. Guess we have to tighten it more? It sounds so free. You know we are the freest country on earth as we walk into our locked down buildings with metal detectors and armed guards. So FREE! I feel so safe and free in the USA. What a joke that everyone keeps claiming that more guns make us safer and freer. 2
longview Posted June 1, 2022 Posted June 1, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, mtomm said: What a joke that everyone keeps claiming that more guns make us safer and freer. What if you had this scenario: a couple of thugs break into your home and threaten your family. What if they are armed with knives or guns? If you do manage to call 911 surreptitiously, how many agonizing minutes are you going to wait before you get brutalized? Liberals stop being liberals when they get mugged. Home defense is best achieved with gun ownership and training. The dominant media refuses to report on the overwhelming numbers of successful deterrence made by law-abiding citizens. More than half the time simply displaying a weapon is sufficient to cause the invaders to turn and skedaddle out of there. There are many security camera videos documenting the hilarious scampering of criminals jumping over each other as they high tail to their vehicles. And sometimes we see home-owners come to their porches and yard as they continue firing at the rascals. ETA: We are freer when government fears an armed populace. I remember in the 1990's the bumper sticker on many vehicles with this quotation: "Fear the government that fears your gun". A very true sentiment! The American hunters constitute the LARGEST army in the world. Bigger than the combined militaries of China, North Korea, etc. Edited June 1, 2022 by longview 1
Tacenda Posted June 1, 2022 Posted June 1, 2022 3 hours ago, longview said: What if you had this scenario: a couple of thugs break into your home and threaten your family. What if they are armed with knives or guns? If you do manage to call 911 surreptitiously, how many agonizing minutes are you going to wait before you get brutalized? Liberals stop being liberals when they get mugged. Home defense is best achieved with gun ownership and training. The dominant media refuses to report on the overwhelming numbers of successful deterrence made by law-abiding citizens. More than half the time simply displaying a weapon is sufficient to cause the invaders to turn and skedaddle out of there. There are many security camera videos documenting the hilarious scampering of criminals jumping over each other as they high tail to their vehicles. And sometimes we see home-owners come to their porches and yard as they continue firing at the rascals. ETA: We are freer when government fears an armed populace. I remember in the 1990's the bumper sticker on many vehicles with this quotation: "Fear the government that fears your gun". A very true sentiment! The American hunters constitute the LARGEST army in the world. Bigger than the combined militaries of China, North Korea, etc. That's all well and good until you have a million lawless cultists that thrive on the notion of a civil war against the liberals that are soo evil and they must die for the greater good in their minds, as well as the non whites.
mtomm Posted June 1, 2022 Posted June 1, 2022 3 hours ago, longview said: What if you had this scenario: a couple of thugs break into your home and threaten your family. What if they are armed with knives or guns? If you do manage to call 911 surreptitiously, how many agonizing minutes are you going to wait before you get brutalized? Liberals stop being liberals when they get mugged. Home defense is best achieved with gun ownership and training. The dominant media refuses to report on the overwhelming numbers of successful deterrence made by law-abiding citizens. More than half the time simply displaying a weapon is sufficient to cause the invaders to turn and skedaddle out of there. There are many security camera videos documenting the hilarious scampering of criminals jumping over each other as they high tail to their vehicles. And sometimes we see home-owners come to their porches and yard as they continue firing at the rascals. ETA: We are freer when government fears an armed populace. I remember in the 1990's the bumper sticker on many vehicles with this quotation: "Fear the government that fears your gun". A very true sentiment! The American hunters constitute the LARGEST army in the world. Bigger than the combined militaries of China, North Korea, etc. The "government" meaning our elected officials are scared of us using their guns on them. Like how does that even work? Who exactly are we fighting? Who are these people? It's the most ridiculous comment about having a gun. "We" are going to save ourselves from someone with tanks and howitzers? Silly. What if your neighbors are fighting WITH the government? Why do gun owners think that every other gun owner is going to join them in the fight? "Liberals stop being liberals when they get mugged." Let me CFR that for you. "The adage that a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged is not supported in this research, as differences in the experience of criminal victimization do not have an effect on punitive attitudes in our study..." 1
Amulek Posted June 1, 2022 Posted June 1, 2022 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: That's all well and good until you have a million lawless cultists that thrive on the notion of a civil war against the liberals that are soo evil and they must die for the greater good in their minds, as well as the non whites. Wow. Just...wow.
Amulek Posted June 1, 2022 Posted June 1, 2022 1 hour ago, mtomm said: "We" are going to save ourselves from someone with tanks and howitzers? Silly. Worked for the Vietnamese...
strappinglad Posted June 1, 2022 Posted June 1, 2022 Then we get this , maybe the AR15 is not that overpowering. Depends on the shooter I guess. A woman lawfully carrying a pistol shot and killed a man who opened fire on a party with an AR-15-style gun, police say (msn.com)
The Nehor Posted June 1, 2022 Posted June 1, 2022 6 hours ago, longview said: What if you had this scenario: a couple of thugs break into your home and threaten your family. What if they are armed with knives or guns? If you do manage to call 911 surreptitiously, how many agonizing minutes are you going to wait before you get brutalized? Liberals stop being liberals when they get mugged. Home defense is best achieved with gun ownership and training. The dominant media refuses to report on the overwhelming numbers of successful deterrence made by law-abiding citizens. More than half the time simply displaying a weapon is sufficient to cause the invaders to turn and skedaddle out of there. There are many security camera videos documenting the hilarious scampering of criminals jumping over each other as they high tail to their vehicles. And sometimes we see home-owners come to their porches and yard as they continue firing at the rascals. ETA: We are freer when government fears an armed populace. I remember in the 1990's the bumper sticker on many vehicles with this quotation: "Fear the government that fears your gun". A very true sentiment! The American hunters constitute the LARGEST army in the world. Bigger than the combined militaries of China, North Korea, etc. Welcome to the Revolution Comrade! 1
longview Posted June 2, 2022 Posted June 2, 2022 3 hours ago, The Nehor said: Welcome to the Revolution Comrade! Everywhere totalitarianism took power (Nazi Germany, communist bloc countries, Red China, etc), the people were disarmed. 1
rodheadlee Posted June 2, 2022 Author Posted June 2, 2022 On 5/30/2022 at 10:57 AM, Chum said: Presently, I can't come up with a scenario that has me defending offensive war gear. Handguns have a place in self defense and single shot long rifles are used for competitive shooting. I ask what purpose would an AR serve me? Where can it defend me that a handgun or long rifle wouldn't? Best answer is other guys with AR class weapons - which is most likely to be a government performing law enforcement. The challenge there is governments can tap into a near endless supply of LEO - which soundly defeats my AR related survival goal. So what if lots of people have ARs and can provide distributed resistance to LEO - to widely disperse LEO into smaller groups and in theory, defeat them? As far a theories go, it's thin. Outcomes are unlikely to turn out as expected. Even if they do, what I expect to see during that kind of fast developing, profoundly chaotic crisis is that these groups will commonly become dominated by people who are most driven by agendas and skilled at manipulation. Under that influence (+power -consequences), war-armed groups can kill the sort of civilians they've long felt were a threat to their imagined society. So, no good outcome there either. I guess you have never seen the movie Red dawn? The one reason Russia , China or anybody will never invade us is because we have 400 million guns in America.
Tacenda Posted June 2, 2022 Posted June 2, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, Amulek said: Wow. Just...wow. They exist. QAnon people, that think the second coming needs to be hastened. And that didn't believe the vote and trampled our constitution along with the capitol. Think boogaloo boys, proud boys or what have you. But I must state that I do believe we have the right to own guns but we need some laws about gun safety just as we do with laws on driving a vehicle safely. Not just throw every law out the window when it comes to guns. Edited June 2, 2022 by Tacenda
Amulek Posted June 2, 2022 Posted June 2, 2022 8 hours ago, Tacenda said: They exist. Lawless cultists who wish to kill all liberals and minorities? I suppose such people do exist, but not in the millions. 8 hours ago, Tacenda said: I do believe we have the right to own guns but we need some laws about gun safety just as we do with laws on driving a vehicle safely. Not just throw every law out the window when it comes to guns. While I suspect the two of us would draw the lines differently, I completely agree with everything you say here.
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