Contention is of the devil?

[mbh26]

I'm trying to get a better understanding of when this principle applies and how.  

 

Quote

Contention violates everything the Savior stood for and taught.

Jesus Christ was Jehovah, the great I am, who killed all but 8 people on the earth during the Great Flood.  I've heard the reason He did this was because the people were so morally corrupt that it was almost impossible for a spirit to be born into that environment and make it back to the Celestial Kingdom.  Jehovah also burnt two cities to the ground named Sodom and Gomorrah apparently for the sin of homosexuality and promiscuous heterosexual behavior.  The Latter Day Saint Church spent an enormous amount of money contending in courts throughout the US to keep legal marriage defined as one man and one woman.  Now we have legal homosexual married couples adopting babies and raising them in this environment.  We have large institutions like Disney and most of the ruling Democrat party fighting to make sure that children from 1st to 3rd grade are inculcated with the view that homosexual marriage is normal and healthy in compulsory public education.  Why?  They do this because children are impressionable and they believe that parents who believe homosexuality is a sin have no right to teach their children this doctrine.  So my question is what is stopping Jehovah from destroying these institutions that are basically guilty of the same thing the people Sodom and Gomorrah and the antediluvians are guilty of?  

The American Revolution was violent.  As Latter Day Saints we believe that Jesus Christ endorsed and possibly helped the colonists to carry on and win this war.  The scriptures say that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey wearing white.  But when the Messiah comes again, he'll be riding a horse and wearing red.  When does Jesus agree with fighting and violence and when does He not?  What principle is this based on?  Can we even predict when Jesus will command us to lay down our arms and turn the other cheek or will command us to take up arms to kill and destroy?  

 

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by mbh26

[Pyreaux]

The church does not teach pacifism nor is it anti-military service though it might consider itself anti-violence and anti-war. Jesus taught to turn the other cheek, but that is different than allowing someone to kill you. So Jesus also taught us to buy weapons to fight with (Luke 22:36) and to stop thieves that come in the night (Matthew 24:43).

Contention is of the Devil because contentions are arguments, its the devil's way to temp, contend and debate (Matthew 4:1-11) in the spirit of rebellion and that is what is of the devil. A heated religious argument can be mistaken, and labelled, as a spiritual dialogue when it is not. Even if you win the argument, was it the Holy Spirit that truly prevailed? The Gospel ideally does not have to be argued but felt, and that feeling should give peace not strife.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Pyreaux

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, mbh26 said:

So my question is what is stopping Jehovah from destroying these institutions that are basically guilty of the same thing the people Sodom and Gomorrah and the antediluvians are guilty of?  

It has at least something to do with us:

'But behold, in the last days, even now while the Lord is beginning to bring forth the word, and the blade is springing up and is yet tender—

'Behold, verily I say unto you, the angels are crying unto the Lord day and night, who are ready and waiting to be sent forth to reap down the fields;

'But the Lord saith unto them, pluck not up the tares while the blade is yet tender (for verily your faith is weak), lest you destroy the wheat also' (D&C 86:5-7).

Quote

When does Jesus agree with fighting and violence and when does He not?

Contention is characterised by hatred, anger, and/or enmity and therefore 'violates everything the Savior stood for and taught'. The Book of Mormon makes it very clear that the only Godly way to fight is in self-defence, and even then it demands a reluctant heart (see Alma 48:14-17). Any desire for violence or vengeance turns us into enemies to God and cuts us off from His protection and guidance.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Fether]

Satan wants contention. Christ want peace. When contention starts, it is ALWAYS instigated by the spirit of the devil. Christ fights only out of defense and justice. But I imagine if he had it his way, there would be no fighting… but unfortunately, we live in a fallen world

[strappinglad]

And yet , " there needs be opposition in all things "

Had there been no Satan, would there have had to been a volunteer ?  

[Fether]

Just now, strappinglad said:

And yet , " there needs be opposition in all things "

Had there been no Satan, would there have had to been a volunteer ?  

Did evil exist before Satan? Or is Satan just the face of evil for this round of creation?

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

The church does not teach pacifism nor is it anti-military service though it might consider itself anti-violence and anti-war. Jesus taught to turn the other cheek, but that is different than allowing someone to kill you. So Jesus also taught us to buy weapons to fight with (Luke 22:36) and to stop thieves that come in the night (Matthew 24:43).

The Latter-day Saint faith officially allows for people to go into combat and to kill the enemy without being condemned, just as anyone or a police officer may be allowed to kill in self-defense. It is called justifiable homicide.  At the same time, the Book of Mormon plainly approves of a pacifist vow being taken and kept.  One gets to choose his own path.

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

Contention is of the Devil because contentions are arguments, its the devil's way to temp, contend and debate (Matthew 4:1-11) in the spirit of rebellion and that is what is of the devil. A heated religious argument can be mistaken, and labelled, as a spiritual dialogue when it is not. Even if you win the argument, was it the Holy Spirit that truly prevailed? The Gospel ideally does not have to be argued but felt, and that feeling should give peace not strife.

Having lawyers contend on behalf of clients in a court of law is in no way immoral or ungodly, just as various types of public debates (live or in writing) are quite useful for clarifying the issues.  This board is part of that same useful function.  A prime biblical example of a divine court is that in which both Satan and God contend over the piety of Job.  However, angry denunciations are not called for, and do nothing to clarify, and moderators here will strike you down for it.

[Robert F. Smith]

22 minutes ago, Fether said:

Did evil exist before Satan? Or is Satan just the face of evil for this round of creation?

Evil is an eternal principle, and must exist.  As Lehi explains in II Nephi 2, if we have no opposites, then God cannot be God.

[Robert F. Smith]

52 minutes ago, Fether said:

Satan wants contention. Christ want peace. When contention starts, it is ALWAYS instigated by the spirit of the devil. Christ fights only out of defense and justice. But I imagine if he had it his way, there would be no fighting… but unfortunately, we live in a fallen world

There is also fighting and contention in Heaven, and always has been.  It is part of the principle of agency.

[strappinglad]

11 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There is also fighting and contention in Heaven,

And Cherubim with flaming swords enforce God's will, no ? 

[manol]

22 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There is also fighting and contention in Heaven, and always has been.  It is part of the principle of agency.

"Fighting and contention" doesn't sound very Heavenly to me, but you've probably thought this through further than I have.  How do you arrive at this conclusion? 

[Hamba Tuhan]

21 minutes ago, manol said:

"Fighting and contention" doesn't sound very Heavenly to me ...

It appears to be allowed to happen but not to continue:

'And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

'And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven' (Revelation 12:7-8, emphasis added).

[Robert F. Smith]

50 minutes ago, manol said:

"Fighting and contention" doesn't sound very Heavenly to me, but you've probably thought this through further than I have.  How do you arrive at this conclusion? 

I was thinking of the War in Heaven.  One-third of the Host of Heaven are headed for Outer Darkness as a result.  Evil is eternal.  Always has been.

[manol]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There is also fighting and contention in Heaven, and always has been.  It is part of the principle of agency.

 

26 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I was thinking of the War in Heaven.  One-third of the Host of Heaven are headed for Outer Darkness as a result.  Evil is eternal.  Always has been.

I'm used to thinking of the War in Heaven in the past tense, and you had said "There is [present tense] also fighting and contention in Heaven...".  Is the War in Heaven (or something similar) actually ongoing?    

Also... if "fighting and contention" are "part of the principle of agency", and if agency is in play in the Celestial Kingdom, then is there "fighting and contention" - or something analogous - in the Celestial Kingdom?  

And, how do you arrive at the conclusion that "Evil is eternal"?   I'm not saying it isn't, just wanting to understand your line of reasoning. 

Thanks!

[Robert F. Smith]

58 minutes ago, manol said:

I'm used to thinking of the War in Heaven in the past tense, and you had said "There is [present tense] also fighting and contention in Heaven...".  Is the War in Heaven (or something similar) actually ongoing?  

There was no beginning, there shall be no end.  There will always be heavenly councils throughout the universe, and for all time, as new spirit children head off to their own life experiences during their mortal probation.  All will be given their choice of following Satan or Jehovah, on keeping or not keeping their first estate.  This must go on forever.  It is never a one-time thing.

58 minutes ago, manol said:

 Also... if "fighting and contention" are "part of the principle of agency", and if agency is in play in the Celestial Kingdom, then is there "fighting and contention" - or something analogous - in the Celestial Kingdom? 

Perhaps the ministering angels and celestial beings in the Celestial Kingdom are sequestered from the hoi polloi such that there is only love and never contention.  However, all celestial beings will inevitably be present in a heavenly council in which there will be many non-celestial spirit children who must make a choice as a first step on their covenant path.  So, yes, in those instances, there will be fighting and contention.  It is inevitable.

58 minutes ago, manol said:

And, how do you arrive at the conclusion that "Evil is eternal"?   I'm not saying it isn't, just wanting to understand your line of reasoning. .............

Reading II Nephi 2 is key here.  It makes it plain that evil must exist, along with all other opposites.  If not, God could not be God.  This a central feature and foundation of LDS theology.  Lehi is very explicit.

[Metis_LDS]

7 hours ago, mbh26 said:

Contention violates everything the Savior stood for and taught.

I have not read many of your posts on this board, but I think you are brave to bring up Contention as it one of the many outputs of this board.  I define Contention as when you understand that the other side will not cede but you continue to argue.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Metis_LDS
clarity

[mbh26]

8 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

The church does not teach pacifism nor is it anti-military service though it might consider itself anti-violence and anti-war. Jesus taught to turn the other cheek, but that is different than allowing someone to kill you. So Jesus also taught us to buy weapons to fight with (Luke 22:36) and to stop thieves that come in the night (Matthew 24:43).

Contention is of the Devil because contentions are arguments, its the devil's way to temp, contend and debate (Matthew 4:1-11) in the spirit of rebellion and that is what is of the devil. A heated religious argument can be mistaken, and labelled, as a spiritual dialogue when it is not. Even if you win the argument, was it the Holy Spirit that truly prevailed? The Gospel ideally does not have to be argued but felt, and that feeling should give peace not strife.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.  And that does seem to be what Jesus was talking about in the context of the Nephites arguing about Church doctrine.  

[mbh26]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It appears to be allowed to happen but not to continue:

'And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

'And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven' (Revelation 12:7-8, emphasis added).

Wasn't the war in heaven a contention/argument/political debate over which plan would work?  Obviously spirits could not kill each other.  I picture a lot of Bible bashing going on.  How do you all see it?  

[Hamba Tuhan]

59 minutes ago, mbh26 said:

Wasn't the war in heaven a contention/argument/political debate over which plan would work?

We certainly weren't 'contentious' -- i.e., filled with anger and/or hatred. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here.

[CV75]

10 hours ago, mbh26 said:

I'm trying to get a better understanding of when this principle applies and how.  

 

Jesus Christ was Jehovah, the great I am, who killed all but 8 people on the earth during the Great Flood.  I've heard the reason He did this was because the people were so morally corrupt that it was almost impossible for a spirit to be born into that environment and make it back to the Celestial Kingdom.  Jehovah also burnt two cities to the ground named Sodom and Gomorrah apparently for the sin of homosexuality and promiscuous heterosexual behavior.  The Latter Day Saint Church spent an enormous amount of money contending in courts throughout the US to keep legal marriage defined as one man and one woman.  Now we have legal homosexual married couples adopting babies and raising them in this environment.  We have large institutions like Disney and most of the ruling Democrat party fighting to make sure that children from 1st to 3rd grade are inculcated with the view that homosexual marriage is normal and healthy in compulsory public education.  Why?  They do this because children are impressionable and they believe that parents who believe homosexuality is a sin have no right to teach their children this doctrine.  So my question is what is stopping Jehovah from destroying these institutions that are basically guilty of the same thing the people Sodom and Gomorrah and the antediluvians are guilty of?  

The American Revolution was violent.  As Latter Day Saints we believe that Jesus Christ endorsed and possibly helped the colonists to carry on and win this war.  The scriptures say that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey wearing white.  But when the Messiah comes again, he'll be riding a horse and wearing red.  When does Jesus agree with fighting and violence and when does He not?  What principle is this based on?  Can we even predict when Jesus will command us to lay down our arms and turn the other cheek or will command us to take up arms to kill and destroy?  

 

 

Would you provide a fuller quote or reference for context?

3 Nephi 11 is what I think of when this idea is brought up. After drawing the people to Him and their witnessing Him, Jesus teaches this principle (beginning with verse 28) and then for the rest of the chapter explains what doctrine we are to be united upon. It seems the kinds of disputations He refers to are both general and doctrinal, and while many negative attitudes can accompany disputation (e.g., confusion, frustration, fear, etc.), the spirit of contention stirs up anger to the level of outright devilishness. He does not want us to dispute on any basis, but emphasizes contention with anger, and so sets forth the common, uniting doctrine and the formula or principle for success in remaining united in general.

28 And according as I have commanded you thus shall ye baptize. And there shall be no ^adisputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been.

29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of ^acontention is not of me, but is of the ^bdevil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things ^ashould be done away.

31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my ^adoctrine.

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by CV75

[filovirus]

3 hours ago, mbh26 said:

Wasn't the war in heaven a contention/argument/political debate over which plan would work?  Obviously spirits could not kill each other.  I picture a lot of Bible bashing going on.  How do you all see it?  

The JST in Revelation 12 makes it clear the angels of God fought with their testimonies.

Edit to add: JST Revelation 12:11 For they have overcome him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony;

I was on my phone and in a rush, so I could not quote the scriptural reference.

Edited May 23, 2022 by filovirus

[Pyreaux]

15 minutes ago, filovirus said:

The JST in Revelation 12 makes it clear the angels of God fought with their testimonies.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Pyreaux

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, mbh26 said:

I'm trying to get a better understanding of when this principle applies and how.  

 

Jesus Christ was Jehovah, the great I am, who killed all but 8 people on the earth during the Great Flood.  I've heard the reason He did this was because the people were so morally corrupt that it was almost impossible for a spirit to be born into that environment and make it back to the Celestial Kingdom.  Jehovah also burnt two cities to the ground named Sodom and Gomorrah apparently for the sin of homosexuality and promiscuous heterosexual behavior.  The Latter Day Saint Church spent an enormous amount of money contending in courts throughout the US to keep legal marriage defined as one man and one woman.  Now we have legal homosexual married couples adopting babies and raising them in this environment.  We have large institutions like Disney and most of the ruling Democrat party fighting to make sure that children from 1st to 3rd grade are inculcated with the view that homosexual marriage is normal and healthy in compulsory public education.  Why?  They do this because children are impressionable and they believe that parents who believe homosexuality is a sin have no right to teach their children this doctrine.  So my question is what is stopping Jehovah from destroying these institutions that are basically guilty of the same thing the people Sodom and Gomorrah and the antediluvians are guilty of?  

The American Revolution was violent.  As Latter Day Saints we believe that Jesus Christ endorsed and possibly helped the colonists to carry on and win this war.  The scriptures say that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey wearing white.  But when the Messiah comes again, he'll be riding a horse and wearing red.  When does Jesus agree with fighting and violence and when does He not?  What principle is this based on?  Can we even predict when Jesus will command us to lay down our arms and turn the other cheek or will command us to take up arms to kill and destroy?  

 

 

Contention is enmity, and enmity between people is not of God.  You can stand up for what you believe and even physically fight for what you believe is right, without hating the person on the other side.  

 

[manol]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There was no beginning, there shall be no end.  There will always be heavenly councils throughout the universe, and for all time, as new spirit children head off to their own life experiences during their mortal probation.  All will be given their choice of following Satan or Jehovah, on keeping or not keeping their first estate.  This must go on forever.  It is never a one-time thing.

I hadn't thought of it from that perspective, but I see what you mean.  Okay.

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Perhaps the ministering angels and celestial beings in the Celestial Kingdom are sequestered from the hoi polloi such that there is only love and never contention.  However, all celestial beings will inevitably be present in a heavenly council in which there will be many non-celestial spirit children who must make a choice as a first step on their covenant path.  So, yes, in those instances, there will be fighting and contention.  It is inevitable.

So fighting and contention is ongoing, but it's not perpetually the same spirits fighting the same battles?  Okay. 

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Reading II Nephi 2 is key here.  It makes it plain that evil must exist, along with all other opposites.  If not, God could not be God.  This a central feature and foundation of LDS theology.  Lehi is very explicit.

Lehi's argument seems to imply that if we all cease to do evil, God will cease to be God.  I'm not saying that is untrue because I don't know, but it doesn't make sense to me.  

Thank you Robert for taking the time to respond to my questions.

[strappinglad]

There are quite a few contentious people here on earth . We are told that the same spirit we have here will rise with us at death. My hope is that they are given their own place to argue out of ear-shot of the non-contentious folk. 😏