Contention is of the devil?

[mbh26]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Contention is enmity, and enmity between people is not of God.  You can stand up for what you believe and even physically fight for what you believe is right, without hating the person on the other side.  

 

That makes sense.  I would say violence is not necessarily enmity.  

[mbh26]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

We certainly weren't 'contentious' -- i.e., filled with anger and/or hatred. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here.

That helps me understand this a little better.  You can argue for what you believe in which is what it seems like what we did in the war in heaven and perhaps continue to do now but not be filled with anger or hatred.  I guess in God's case you can even kick people out of heaven and segregate people without being filled with anger or hatred.  Even Nephi and his family refused to live in the company of Laman and Lemuel and their families.  

[mbh26]

29 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

There are quite a few contentious people here on earth . We are told that the same spirit we have here will rise with us at death. My hope is that they are given their own place to argue out of ear-shot of the non-contentious folk. 😏

It seems that Jesus could have just stayed in the wilderness and out of public view and there would have been no contention.  But He didn't.  

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, manol said:

...............

Lehi's argument seems to imply that if we all cease to do evil, God will cease to be God.  I'm not saying that is untrue because I don't know, but it doesn't make sense to me.  

.................

Nope.  Lehi doesn't say that at all.  What he says is that there can be no good without evil, no bitter without sweet, etc.  That is the nature of the universe.  Otherwise, he says, everything would simply be "a compound in one" -- an undifferentiated mass, without good or evil, without any meaning at all, and without even the possibility of God.

This is also a fundamental law of physics.  The Law of Opposition is universal.

[The Nehor]

I admit I find the idea that gay marriage amongst a few nations on Earth being the sing that portends the equivalent of the Great Flood kind of silly. The old Jewish texts that talk of Sodom and Gomorrah talk about the acquisitive and paranoid and greedy natures of the inhabitants being the primary cause of their fall. The pansexual rape gang in the Old Testament was just one element. I see God burning us more for us grinding the faces of the poor, ignoring the orphans, turning away the distressed and forsaken as “not out problem”, and our self-destructive rush to massive wealth inequality catapulting a few to the top but pushing millions more into poverty.

[pogi]

29 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I admit I find the idea that gay marriage amongst a few nations on Earth being the sing that portends the equivalent of the Great Flood kind of silly. The old Jewish texts that talk of Sodom and Gomorrah talk about the acquisitive and paranoid and greedy natures of the inhabitants being the primary cause of their fall. The pansexual rape gang in the Old Testament was just one element. I see God burning us more for us grinding the faces of the poor, ignoring the orphans, turning away the distressed and forsaken as “not out problem”, and our self-destructive rush to massive wealth inequality catapulting a few to the top but pushing millions more into poverty.

Milli Vanilli was singing about something as old as Sodom and Gomorrah:

"Gotta blame it on something

Gotta blame it on something

Whatever you do, don't put the blame on you

Blame it on the rain gays (yeah yeah)

You can blame it on the rain gays"

[mbh26]

 

51 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I admit I find the idea that gay marriage amongst a few nations on Earth being the sing that portends the equivalent of the Great Flood kind of silly. The old Jewish texts that talk of Sodom and Gomorrah talk about the acquisitive and paranoid and greedy natures of the inhabitants being the primary cause of their fall. The pansexual rape gang in the Old Testament was just one element. I see God burning us more for us grinding the faces of the poor, ignoring the orphans, turning away the distressed and forsaken as “not out problem”, and our self-destructive rush to massive wealth inequality catapulting a few to the top but pushing millions more into poverty.

 I'd recommend Elder Holland's talk on "Of souls symbols and sacraments."  I can't believe that the Lord is very happy about sending children into homes of two Dads or two Moms to be brought up under the idea that this is somehow a normal, virtuous, or morally upright lifestyle.  Most of us understand that God is not very happy when we murder and end the mortal probation of our spiritual brothers and sisters.  But too many people are not aware that he is almost equally unhappy when we begin the lives of our spirit brethren in a wicked and unrighteous manner.  

I have a first grader now.  I am angry that some teachers take it upon themselves to indoctrinate first graders with the belief that homosexuality is a normal, healthy, and virtuous behavior, and in some cases purposely try to seed their minds with questions such as, "Am I gay?"  I don't think the Lord is very happy with it either.  The brethren saw where this was headed early on.  The argument started out as the state not getting involved with decisions made by consenting adults behind closed doors.  Now it's mandatory indoctrination of grade schoolers, queerifying Disney characters in kids movies and a resulting explosion in the number of high schoolers identifying as gay, transgender, #@!@$##$. etc.  

[Calm]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Milli Vanilli was singing

But were they actually?  
 

For those too young, too old, or not interested back then…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milli_Vanilli

Edited May 23, 2022 by Calm

[The Nehor]

22 minutes ago, mbh26 said:

 

 I'd recommend Elder Holland's talk on "Of souls symbols and sacraments."  I can't believe that the Lord is very happy about sending children into homes of two Dads or two Moms to be brought up under the idea that this is somehow a normal, virtuous, or morally upright lifestyle.  Most of us understand that God is not very happy when we murder and end the mortal probation of our spiritual brothers and sisters.  But too many people are not aware that he is almost equally unhappy when we begin the lives of our spirit brethren in a wicked and unrighteous manner.  

I have a first grader now.  I am angry that some teachers take it upon themselves to indoctrinate first graders with the belief that homosexuality is a normal, healthy, and virtuous behavior, and in some cases purposely try to seed their minds with questions such as, "Am I gay?"  I don't think the Lord is very happy with it either.  The brethren saw where this was headed early on.  The argument started out as the state not getting involved with decisions made by consenting adults behind closed doors.  Now it's mandatory indoctrination of grade schoolers, queerifying Disney characters in kids movies and a resulting explosion in the number of high schoolers identifying as gay, transgender, #@!@$##$. etc.  

Oh no, the world is teaching something opposed to the gospel? This has never happened before and is definitely not the routine.

Don’t worry, we’ll have a lot more unwanted children soon if current trends continue.

[mbh26]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I admit I find the idea that gay marriage amongst a few nations on Earth being the sing that portends the equivalent of the Great Flood kind of silly. The old Jewish texts that talk of Sodom and Gomorrah talk about the acquisitive and paranoid and greedy natures of the inhabitants being the primary cause of their fall. The pansexual rape gang in the Old Testament was just one element. I see God burning us more for us grinding the faces of the poor, ignoring the orphans, turning away the distressed and forsaken as “not out problem”, and our self-destructive rush to massive wealth inequality catapulting a few to the top but pushing millions more into poverty.

I am curious to get your opinion on when you think God condones taking up arms and revolting.  I assume you believe the American revolution was a righteous cause and inspired by God.  What made that so?  

What do you think of Jehovah commanding the Israelites to kill every man, woman, and child to make room for his chosen race of people?  That would earn him the title of Nazi, bigot, and racist by todays standards would it not?  Even in the New Testament Jesus would still be considered racist by todays standards since He didn't preach and give the priesthood to the Gentiles at the same time He offered it to the Jews.  I believe it was Peter who received the revelation to take the gospel to the Gentiles.  

Edited May 23, 2022 by mbh26

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, mbh26 said:

I am curious to get your opinion on when you think God condones taking up arms and revolting.  I assume you believe the American revolution was a righteous cause and inspired by God.  What made that so?  

I believe God aided the American Revolutionaries because the Book of Mormon says so and I believe that the Constitution was inspired to provide an “alpha build” for liberal democracy to spread around the world. I am not so convinced that the American Revolution was fought for a righteous cause. The Americans fought over economic concerns mostly. The British government was trying to recoup their financial losses in the French and Indian War by taxing those who benefitted from the victory and the Americans didn’t like it. The Americans were also pretty lawless by nature. They had been ignoring British laws for over a century and when the laws began to be enforced they got angry. The British viewed the colonists as whiny children who got their victory and the French and Indian threat removed but then wanted to shift the cost entirely to the homeland.

I sympathize more with the colonists than the British but saying it was an inherently righteous cause that all should be in awe of? Nah, I don’t buy it. It did further God’s cause in the same way Isaiah saw the Assyrian conquest as furthering God’s cause though the colonists had a better cause than the Assyrians too. God did put some brilliant minds together in the colonies to get a radical new kind of government implemented which has spread with mixed success all over the world.

23 minutes ago, mbh26 said:

What do you think of Jehovah commanding the Israelites to kill every man, woman, and child to make room for his chosen race of people?  That would earn him the title of Nazi, bigot, and racist by todays standards would it not?  Even in the New Testament Jesus would still be considered racist by todays standards since He didn't preach and give the priesthood to the Gentiles at the same time He offered it to the Jews.  I believe it was Peter who received the revelation to take the gospel to the Gentiles.  

I am not convinced Jehovah did any such thing. There was probably a conflict but the Torah is filled with contrasting commands. In one passage their orders are to come in and subjugate cities. If they surrender, integrate. Then there are certain groups of people who must be killed completely but those made up much of the population so why the integration bits? Different sources? Then you have the history in the Old Testament which is full of Israelites falling in with the preexisting wickedness. Would later writers think it might have been better to have just killed them all? Surely their God told them to kill them all since that would have solved the problem. Well, the story isn’t clear so I will just add it in. There, now all this wickedness is the fault of our fathers for not genociding harder!

Jesus had some kind of command to only preach to some people but it was less along racial and more along religious lines. Oddly the Woman at the Well story suggests this group was a bit broader than just those practicing Judaism.

In any case I have no idea what your post was even about. I talked about orphans and inequality and being kind to the stranger in the land which the scriptures are clear on. Why are you using the old Soviet ‘Whataboutism’ tactic and thinking that “What about the racism in the Bible” is a counter-argument?

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

But were they actually?  
 

For those too young, too old, or not interested back then…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milli_Vanilli

Touché 

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, pogi said:

Touché 

I appreciate you giving the opportunity for the ‘wit’.  I am still laughing about it, but then I always laugh when that name is mentioned.  It was a bit of a downer I felt obligated to add a reference.  I am curious if it was actually needed or not.  I was in Canada when that happened and I don’t remember any reference to them in face to face conversation since we moved back down, so it seems like an obscure fact to me.  I wonder if they are memed at all.  I will have to ask my daughter and grandson if they have heard of them.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Calm

[pogi]

24 minutes ago, Calm said:

I appreciate you giving the opportunity for the ‘wit’.  I am still laughing about it, but then I always laugh when that name is mentioned.  It was a bit of a downer I felt obligated to add a reference.  I am curious if it was actually needed or not.  I was in Canada when that happened and I don’t remember any reference to them in face to face conversation since we moved back down, so it seems like an obscure fact to me.  I wonder if they are memed at all.  I will have to ask my daughter and grandson if they have heard of them.

The reference was appreciated.  I was not aware of that hilarious fact. That is somewhat embarrassing to me as my band actually covered that song as a joke at a few shows.  We would cover unexpected “classics” from that decade every now and then to keep things interesting.  

Edited May 23, 2022 by pogi

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, mbh26 said:

The brethren saw where this was headed early on.

Yes, very early. Back in the 1990s, I found a Church publication in our mission office, written 20 years earlier by a lawyer named Dallin Oaks, in which the Brethren explained that a central concern with America's proposed Equal Rights Amendment was that it would make it more difficult in future to resist the exact radical sexual agenda we are now watching unfold across many 'developed' nations.

The Nehor has consistently gainsaid the living prophets on this topic for as long as I have been on this forum, but your concerns put you in good company: 'Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets'.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[bluebell]

22 minutes ago, pogi said:

The reference was appreciated.  I was not aware of that hilarious fact. That is somewhat embarrassing to me as my band actually covered that song as a joke at a few shows.  We would cover unexpected “classics” from that decade every now and then to keep things interesting.  

Wait.

You really didn't know that about Milli Vanilli?!  

Wow, I feel old.   

[Calm]

46 minutes ago, pogi said:

That is somewhat embarrassing to me as my band actually covered that song as a joke at a few shows.

Something to laugh about with your band members when (if?) you get to get together.

[pogi]

19 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Wait.

You really didn't know that about Milli Vanilli?!  

Wow, I feel old.   

Oh, I am definitely that old - born '79 - which is why I am a little embarrassed for not knowing that fact.  I never gave much attention to pop-culture back in the day.  I was way too underground cool (tongue-in-cheek) to care about stuff like that.  Ha! 

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, mbh26 said:

That helps me understand this a little better.  You can argue for what you believe in which is what it seems like what we did in the war in heaven and perhaps continue to do now but not be filled with anger or hatred.  I guess in God's case you can even kick people out of heaven and segregate people without being filled with anger or hatred.  Even Nephi and his family refused to live in the company of Laman and Lemuel and their families.  

While I am aware of the "cast out" language of Scripture (and who am I to argue against that?) generally, I believe that where beings find themselves depends less on the choices of others that, essentially, are foisted upon them (being "cast out") than it does upon the choices of the beings themselves.  While, as premortal beings, we did not have the degree of agency that we have come to have here, as mortal beings, or that we will have hereafter, as postmortal beings (see 2 Nephi 2:15-16), still, we had a degree of agency, at least enough agency to choose to follow The Plan or not.  I don't think God "segregated" or "kicked out" anyone so much as they experienced the natural consequences of their choices, just as all of us do here in mortality.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't think God "segregated" or "kicked out" anyone so much as they experienced the natural consequences of their choices, just as all of us do here in mortality.

You've just reminded me of one of my favourite passages in Paradise Lost, a soliloquy by the newly fallen Satan in which he addresses himself in the second person:

Quote

Whom hast thou then, or what, to accuse, / But Heaven’s free love dealt equally to all? / Be then his love accursed, since, love or hate, / To me alike it deals eternal woe.

Nay, cursed be thou; since against his thy will / Chose freely what it now so justly rues.

Me miserable! which way shall I fly / Infinite wrath and infinite despair? / Which way I fly is Hell; myself am Hell ...

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yes, very early. Back in the 1990s, I found a Church publication in our mission office, written 20 years earlier by a lawyer named Dallin Oaks, in which the Brethren explained that a central concern with America's proposed Equal Rights Amendment was that it would make it more difficult in future to resist the exact radical sexual agenda we are now watching unfold across many 'developed' nations.

The Nehor has consistently gainsaid the living prophets on this topic for as long as I have been on this forum, but your concerns put you in good company: 'Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets'.

I have not. I just challenge the idea that the minority LGBTQ community is the primary force behind the disintegration of the family. It is scapegoating something we have a lot of lately. Blood libel is coming back with a vengeance. It is always the “other” group destroying the family and if we could just contain/exile/liquidate them things would be good again. The cleansers are coming back and of course like always they are more vile and corrupt and degraded than those they insist must be removed.

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I have not. I just challenge the idea that the minority LGBTQ community is the primary force behind the disintegration of the family. It is scapegoating something we have a lot of lately. Blood libel is coming back with a vengeance. It is always the “other” group destroying the family and if we could just contain/exile/liquidate them things would be good again. The cleansers are coming back and of course like always they are more vile and corrupt and degraded than those they insist must be removed.

I think a culture that makes single parenthood typical is quite destructive myself.  Which is not to condemn single parents, but the culture that does not provide better support for two parent families. Education in school of youth in being responsible adults as opposed to being able to pass tests, mental health care and counseling being freely available and no stigma attached, financial support including long term parental leave not being career destroying, generational households and better job security and satisfaction to avoid job hopping and increasing moves so families and kids especially can have great support systems, etc.