LDS Architecture

[Saint Bonaventure]

I'm not quite sure how to jump into my questions, so I'll give a little context.

Every Catholic church is an example of "the medium is the message," right down to the architecture. There are differences from church to church, but they are all very intentional in the sense that the design, layout, and arrangement of the church itself is a kind of chrysalis for creating Catholics. Even if you can't read or hear, a Catholic church orients a person in relation to God, to one another, and so on. This is true right down to the inevitable main doors, that are thought of in the sense of Christ being "the gate" (John 10; 14 etc.), to the centrality and height of the altar in the sanctuary, to the stations of the cross that encircle the nave, etc.

With this in mind, you might imagine my puzzlement when, as I understand it, LDS churches don't really have main doors and that a common arrangement is to have the building architecturally centered on a basketball court.

I have other points of confusion regarding LDS architecture, but I'll start with these two (no main doors and basketball court). Perhaps it explains why BYU nearly defeated Saint Mary's yesterday?

 

 

 

 

 

    

[JLHPROF]

We save our architectural design for temples.  Meeting houses are far more utilitarian.  (Although frankly temples are moving that direction.)

[Rain]

I would say that the architecture is not centered on the basketball court, but the chapel - the court it is an extension of the chapel.

There are 2 main types of buildings.  One is a meeting house.  One is a temple. 

A meeting house can be as simple as 4 poles and a blue tarp as my in-laws saw in Vanuatu 20 years ago on their mission.  While baptisms and sacrament are conducted in a meeting house, the majority of the time it is for meetings of different kinds.

The temple is where you will see the beliefs in architecture and decoration much more.

[bluebell]

This is one of the places where I have holy envy of Catholic churches.  I would love a more serene and beautiful space to worship in on Sundays.  But our chapels are very utilitarian and I've learned to live with it.

[Saint Bonaventure]

So utilitarian, but with the temples being more intentional about architecture and meaning. I can see that.

Catholics don't always do utilitarianism very well. I've been in incredible churches that didn't have adequate coat racks, or where it was obvious that an entire work crew would have to spend a morning moving a piece because there was no way it was easily going through the doors.

 

[Olmec Donald]

Some of the worst acoustics I've encountered have been in LDS chapels.  Not that this is something most people even notice, but let me explain why I think it matters:

The ear/brain system has limited capacity to process information, and when the reverberation is too strong, it takes MORE attention and MORE time to decipher individual words.  So by the time the ear/brain system has discerned one word, the speaker has moved on to the next word.  This has two effects:  The first is, it is difficult for the listener to piece together complex thoughts from the individual words, and then to put those complex thoughts into long-term memory, because TOO MUCH of the brain's limited attention is devoted to simply understanding the individual words.  Second, it is very tiring for the brain to have to concentrate so hard on the task of understanding words, so after ten or fifteen minutes the brain is burned out and the listener is exhausted. 

The imo best solution is to hire an acoustician preferably in the building design phase, because this is the sort of thing that is easier to prevent than to cure. 

(The most obvious place where this phenomenon arises is in lecture halls at colleges and universities, and there your only hope is to sit in the front of the hall.  The students in the back of the hall not only have poor retention but also are more likely to get a headache and/or fall asleep, and it's NOT because they are lazy, but because the acoustics are dreadful and they have to devote too much of their inherently limited cognitive capacity to the task of understanding the individual words.  So tell your kids and grandkids to sit in the front of the class because speech intelligibility - and therefore comprehension and retention - is likely to suffer enormously if they do not.) 

My day job involves acoustics and psychoacoustics, hence my heightened awareness in this area.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Olmec Donald

[Rain]

 

3 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

Some of the worst acoustics I've encountered have been in LDS chapels.  Not that this is something most people even notice, but let me explain why I think it matters:

The ear/brain system has limited capacity to process information, and when the reverberation is too strong, it takes MORE attention and MORE time to decipher individual words.  So by the time the ear/brain system has discerned one word, the speaker has moved on to the next word.  This has two effects:  The first is, it is difficult for the listener to piece together complex thoughts from the individual words, and then to put those complex thoughts into long-term memory, because TOO MUCH of the brain's limited attention is devoted to simply understanding the individual words.  Second, it is very tiring for the brain to have to concentrate so hard on the task of understanding words, so after ten or fifteen minutes the brain is burned out and the listener is exhausted. 

The solution is to hire an acoustician preferably in the building design phase, because this is the sort of thing that is easier to prevent than to cure. 

(The most obvious place where this phenomenon arises is in lecture halls at colleges and universities, and there your only hope is to sit in the front of the hall.  The students in the back of the hall not only have poor retention but also are more likely to get a headache and/or fall asleep, and it's NOT because they are lazy, but because the acoustics are dreadful and they have to devote too much of their inherently limited cognitive capacity to the task of understanding the individual words.  So tell your kids and grandkids to sit in the front of the class because speech intelligibility - and therefore comprehension and retention - is likely to suffer enormously if they do not.) 

My day job involves acoustics and psychoacoustics, hence my heightened awareness in this area.

Interesting. Thanks.   

I have noticed that my interest in the music has gone way down since watching so much on zoom.  Going back in person I thought my interest would raise, but it just still does nothing for me.  

There may be more to it as I haven't been able to sing much as it makes me cough.  (Acid reflux doing something so my vocal chords). Now that I am not a part of singing and much more so after all the zoom meetings everything just falls flat.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Rain

[Thinking]

One thing I like about cathedrals is they are open for worship. LDS meetinghouse are only open if there is a meeting or activity going on. The chapel is not "open" for anybody to come and pray or meditate.

[Paloma]

I too love the architecture of Catholic churches and cathedrals.  I've also been in many beautiful historic Anglican, United Church, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, etc. church buildings.  

High ceilings, stained glass windows and other features of beautifully designed and appointed churches fulfil their intended purpose of lifting my soul to God.

I also appreciate the idea of the church or ecclesia being God's people and wherever people gather, there is God in the midst of them, as in the house churches of Acts 2.

If there's opportunity when I travel, I like to spend time in cathedrals.  Thankfully, my patient husband indulges me in this pastime.  Perhaps he'd much rather see me spending hours in beautiful churches than in the shops!

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

..............................

Every Catholic church is an example of "the medium is the message," right down to the architecture. There are differences from church to church, but they are all very intentional in the sense that the design, layout, and arrangement of the church itself is a kind of chrysalis for creating Catholics. Even if you can't read or hear, a Catholic church orients a person in relation to God, to one another, and so on. This is true right down to the inevitable main doors, that are thought of in the sense of Christ being "the gate" (John 10; 14 etc.), to the centrality and height of the altar in the sanctuary, to the stations of the cross that encircle the nave, etc.

Yes, and I recall from an introduction to Catholicism class the priest who taught us demonstrating how each part of his clerical garb had deep religious meaning.  This is generally true for all high churches.  A great many Protestant denominations, on the other, hand have plain, unadorned meeting houses or chapels -- Latter-day Saint meeting houses even moreso, not even a cross anywhere.  For low church Protestants this is deliberate, in much the same way that a monastery might avoid all frills.

5 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

With this in mind, you might imagine my puzzlement when, as I understand it, LDS churches don't really have main doors and that a common arrangement is to have the building architecturally centered on a basketball court.

I have other points of confusion regarding LDS architecture, but I'll start with these two (no main doors and basketball court). Perhaps it explains why BYU nearly defeated Saint Mary's yesterday?   

The reason for that stark difference is that Roman Catholic and Orthodox cathedrals and ordinary churches are considered models of the Jewish temple, and the priests perform temple ordinances therein.  The Eucharist is the same as the ancient blood sacrifice on the ancient temple altar.

For Latter-day Saints (unlike the low church Protestants) there are actual temples in which the most holy sacraments are carried out daily (except Sunday).  LDS temples are very expensive and heavily symbolic edifices in which those holy ordinances are designed to save all of humanity by affording all of them, living and dead, access to the infinite atonement of Jesus Christ -- as well as to provide sealing ordinances for time and eternity -- all of that done in priestly robes.  The liturgy is mostly oral, and must be precise (witnesses watch):  I was thinking of that unfortunate Roman Catholic priest who recently discovered that decades of his baptisms are invalid because he used the wrong words.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

One thing I like about cathedrals is they are open for worship. LDS meetinghouse are only open if there is a meeting or activity going on. The chapel is not "open" for anybody to come and pray or meditate.

I've appreciated that as well. I didn't recognize it before I traveled out of the US, though considering all the movies with these types of scenes I should have noticed.  

I know we can pray anywhere and the celestial room is open for that as well, but there is a different feel in a cathedral. And it's far easier to slip into most churches quietly than into the celestial room.

One of those things is lighting. Celestial rooms are always light which definitely goes with our beliefs, but I find the less lighted catholic churches more comfortable to sit and pray because you feel less conspicuous and because people are less likely to chatter.

[Freedom]

I have heard many arguments as to why lds chapels are so simple in design but the only real reason I can think of is cost of maintenance. I do not think we need a large murals in the room, but I have seen the beauty in some of the older buildings and I cannot see why artwork cannot be brought in. I feel like the podiums were purchased at ikea they are so plain. 

[Rain]

30 minutes ago, Freedom said:

I have heard many arguments as to why lds chapels are so simple in design but the only real reason I can think of is cost of maintenance. I do not think we need a large murals in the room, but I have seen the beauty in some of the older buildings and I cannot see why artwork cannot be brought in. I feel like the podiums were purchased at ikea they are so plain. 

Can't be Ikea. It would take too long to put them together. 

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, Rain said:

Can't be Ikea. It would take too long to put them together. 

I've known some people who worked on building chapels.  (In Utah that's been lots locally).  They said chapels are basically pre-fab kits, some assembly required.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I've known some people who worked on building chapels.  (In Utah that's been lots locally).  They said chapels are basically pre-fab kits, some assembly required.

I'm not surprised.  Just joking about the difficulty of putting Ikea together sometimes. Like I've put bunk bed kits together before that had just a few pieces and it was fairly straight forward, but at least one type from Ikea has something like 100 small pieces that criss cross under the bed. Even when you know how to put it together it just takes time snapping each piece together. 

[Paloma]

I've been in Latter-day Saint churches 10-12 times in my life, including the chapel, Relief Society Room, basketball hall (for a wedding reception), and baptismal room (which I'm thinking may have been part of another larger room, made small by moveable dividers?).  My visits have been to at least 5 different church buildings.

My overall impression as a visitor included these:  1) the Relief Society Room was like the 'heart' of the building with its warm colours, piano, comfortable furniture, paintings on the wall, etc.;  2) the chapels were very stark, but also very functional when filled with people.  One Sunday morning I experienced more than a couple of different 'events' there that included adult Sunday school (I think it was that rather than Gospel Doctrines)and Sacrament meeting followed by what I think of as 'music and talks' (between Sacrament meeting and 'music and talks' people would move around either out of the room or to different seats, so these events seem separated in my mind, but they're probably not meant to be); 3) and the hallways were full of mostly purposeful activity.  Most people seemed to be on a mission either headed somewhere in the building or the exact opposite with a few people (mostly men, I think) sitting on benches with a very 'I'm here but checked-out' demeanour.  While I liked the activity and it spoke strongly of "community", I remember thinking that it wasn't very conducive to welcoming visitors - something we continually try to bring more awareness and improvement into, within the churches where I've attended regularly.  Having said that, I was always with at least one missionary sister or a couple of missionary elders, so I may not have an accurate read on whether visitors are 'seen' and welcomed, as I was in good hands already!

[Paloma]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I'm not surprised.  Just joking about the difficulty of putting Ikea together sometimes. Like I've put bunk bed kits together before that had just a few pieces and it was fairly straight forward, but at least one type from Ikea has something like 100 small pieces that criss cross under the bed. Even when you know how to put it together it just takes time snapping each piece together. 

I just had to respond to this, having recently torn out our old kitchen and we're almost finished constructing an IKEA kitchen.  IKEA is great, but we've spent hours with those small pieces you're talking about, Rain! And pulling off the protective shrink wrap from all the cupboard doors!  That was one of my tasks, seeing I'm not very much oriented toward knowing how to fit things together!

Right now we're trying to find the misplaced screws that will hold our range hood in place!

Edited February 21, 2022 by Paloma

[Paloma]

17 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

I'm not quite sure how to jump into my questions, so I'll give a little context.

Every Catholic church is an example of "the medium is the message," right down to the architecture. There are differences from church to church, but they are all very intentional in the sense that the design, layout, and arrangement of the church itself is a kind of chrysalis for creating Catholics. Even if you can't read or hear, a Catholic church orients a person in relation to God, to one another, and so on. This is true right down to the inevitable main doors, that are thought of in the sense of Christ being "the gate" (John 10; 14 etc.), to the centrality and height of the altar in the sanctuary, to the stations of the cross that encircle the nave, etc.

...

 

Bonaventure, I will eternally be thankful for everything that you described and that I've bolded above. These have been a gift in my life.

While in university, I would often spend time in a very beautiful Gothic cathedral nestled within our large campus where I would find peace.  I had a quickening sense of my relationship with God and an increase of wisdom, understanding and compassion for others and even for myself.

I particularly like what you said about the main doors representing Christ being "the gate".  That's a new thought to me and it's now opened my eyes to something 'more'.  How I appreciate that we're always learning!  

I also love that the stations of the cross encircle the nave.  I have had this realization in the past and I've sat in the middle of the nave feeling "held" by Jesus' love sacrifice. I've contemplated His finished work on the cross and what that means for my present sense of shalom and well-being, as well as for my future life and security with God.

Because of these experiences I've had, I think I have at least some sense of what my Latter-day Saint friends mean when they talk about their experiences in the Temple.  One of my friends who has left the LDS church still laments that she misses what she experienced in the Temple, and I understand that too.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Paloma

[Rain]

27 minutes ago, Paloma said:

I've been in Latter-day Saint churches 10-12 times in my life, including the chapel, Relief Society Room, basketball hall (for a wedding reception), and baptismal room (which I'm thinking may have been part of another larger room, made small by moveable dividers?). 

Yes, a lot of these are like that.  Sometimes into the RS or primary room.  Our stake has one that opens into the hallway and across the hallway the doors in the primary room open into the hall so it becomes one big room.

 

27 minutes ago, Paloma said:

My visits have been to at least 5 different church buildings.

My overall impression as a visitor included these:  1) the Relief Society Room was like the 'heart' of the building with its warm colours, piano, comfortable furniture, paintings on the wall, etc.;  2) the chapels were very stark, but also very functional when filled with people.  One Sunday morning I experienced more than a couple of different 'events' there that included adult Sunday school (I think it was that rather than Gospel Doctrines)and Sacrament meeting followed by what I think of as 'music and talks' (between Sacrament meeting and 'music and talks' people would move around either out of the room or to different seats, so these events seem separated in my mind, but they're probably not meant to be);

 

Gospel Doctrine is the name of our main Sunday School class.  

Usually the music and talks would be part of sacrament meeting, but I can see how it might be seen as 2 separate things since people are moving around going to their seats, coming into the chapel if they were late (waiting for the ordinance to be done) or leaving to change a diaper or go to the bathroom etc.

27 minutes ago, Paloma said:

3) and the hallways were full of mostly purposeful activity.  Most people seemed to be on a mission either headed somewhere in the building or the exact opposite with a few people (mostly men, I think) sitting on benches with a very 'I'm here but checked-out' demeanour.  While I liked the activity and it spoke strongly of "community", I remember thinking that it wasn't very conducive to welcoming visitors - something we continually try to bring more awareness and improvement into, within the churches where I've attended regularly. 

I think you have described that very well!

27 minutes ago, Paloma said:

Having said that, I was always with at least one missionary sister or a couple of missionary elders, so I may not have an accurate read on whether visitors are 'seen' and welcomed, as I was in good hands already!

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Rain

[Rain]

19 minutes ago, Paloma said:

I just had to respond to this, having recently torn out our old kitchen and we're almost finished constructing an IKEA kitchen.  IKEA is great, but we've spent hours with those small pieces you're talking about, Rain! And pulling off the protective shrink wrap from all the cupboard doors!  That was one of my tasks, seeing I'm not very much oriented toward knowing how to fit things together!

Right now we're trying to find the misplaced screws that will hold our range hood in place!

I'm with an organization that sets up apartments for refugees.  We have a love/hate relationship with Ikea.  Their items are good for us in a number of ways, but yes, putting them together can be interesting.  By the way, if you can't find those screws you can ask for more at the store. 

I read your description of the building to my husband and it so perfectly fits and is a little eye opening at the same time.  He asked me to send what you said to him as he might want to use it in a couple of talks.  Is that okay?

[mfbukowski]

17 hours ago, Rain said:

I would say that the architecture is not centered on the basketball court, but the chapel - the court it is an extension of the chapel.

There are 2 main types of buildings.  One is a meeting house.  One is a temple. 

A meeting house can be as simple as 4 poles and a blue tarp as my in-laws saw in Vanuatu 20 years ago on their mission.  While baptisms and sacrament are conducted in a meeting house, the majority of the time it is for meetings of different kinds.

The temple is where you will see the beliefs in architecture and decoration much more.

@Saint Bonaventure

This post nails it; note the use of terminology; the "meeting house" or "chapel" or even "ward house" is where we meet on Sunday and through the week for regular activities, in the past of course those were actual houses, or simple buildings designed to be meeting places, simply a large structure that would practically hold people for an hour or two for meetings, or recreation 

Chapels are strictly utilitarian buildings. Temples are strictly for liturgical usage.

Remember our "liturgical" activities are not held here; those happen in temples which are designed to be symbolic / spiritual architectural allegories of the journey of life from the pre-existence to the celestial Kingdom, and therefore deification.

Various other sacraments/ordinances are performed there as well, both for the living and the dead.

THOSE structures are the ones which are designed around spiritual symbology

In the past, Catholics had buildings where the Catechumens met, the "baptistry" before they could attend mass in the "cathedral", this is similar 

Catholic Encyclopedia 

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02276b.htm

Edited February 21, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Paloma]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I'm with an organization that sets up apartments for refugees.  We have a love/hate relationship with Ikea.  Their items are good for us in a number of ways, but yes, putting them together can be interesting.  By the way, if you can't find those screws you can ask for more at the store. 

I read your description of the building to my husband and it so perfectly fits and is a little eye opening at the same time.  He asked me to send what you said to him as he might want to use it in a couple of talks.  Is that okay?

Of course it's okay! 🙂

[Amulek]

18 hours ago, bluebell said:

This is one of the places where I have holy envy of Catholic churches.  I would love a more serene and beautiful space to worship in on Sundays. 

I know this is going to sound bad, but I'm actually fine with the spartan decor for our regular worship services. However, I do think it would be nice if there were a fancier place for holding wedding receptions.

Seriously, it's all but impossible to make the "cultural hall" look like anything other than a basketball court. 😐

 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I know this is going to sound bad, but I'm actually fine with the spartan decor for our regular worship services. However, I do think it would be nice if there were a fancier place for holding wedding receptions.

Seriously, it's all but impossible to make the "cultural hall" look like anything other than a basketball court. 😐

 

To be fair, you can hold a wedding reception wherever you want.  It's just that the cultural hall is free.  

[mfbukowski]

14 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

My day job involves acoustics and psychoacoustics, hence my heightened awareness in this area.

Very interesting, but I could kinda tell!  I have never thought about this, so thanks.

If I can't hear the message, I just fall asleep.

But in LDS chapels, even close to the front, there can be a small echo effect.