Saint Bonaventure Posted February 27, 2022 Author Posted February 27, 2022 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Incidentally, that is a misquote. A "massage" is a bit more intrusive than a message. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Medium_Is_the_Massage Certainly not a misquote--McLuhan used both "message" and "massage." I'm glad you're looking doing a little exploring on McLuhan, though.
mfbukowski Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said: Certainly not a misquote--McLuhan used both "message" and "massage." I'm glad you're looking doing a little exploring on McLuhan, though. Well I guess I have been "exploring" since 1967, and have opinions about artists intentions vs how words "massage" reality. Wittgenstein et al. ! All McL was doing really is rehashing 20th century philosophy of language, meaning =social context Did you attend St. Bonaventure? Edited February 28, 2022 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 (edited) Duplicate Edited February 28, 2022 by mfbukowski
Saint Bonaventure Posted February 28, 2022 Author Posted February 28, 2022 27 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Well I guess I have been "exploring" since 1967, and have opinions about artists intentions vs how words "massage" reality. Wittgenstein et al. ! All McL was doing really is rehashing 20th century philosophy of language, meaning =social context Did you attend St. Bonaventure? Is this part of your comedy act, i.e., your schtick?
mfbukowski Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 6 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said: Is this part of your comedy act, i.e., your schtick? No clue, sorry if I offended you somehow, bye!
Saint Bonaventure Posted February 28, 2022 Author Posted February 28, 2022 3 hours ago, mfbukowski said: No clue, sorry if I offended you somehow, bye! I'm not offended in the least, just genuinely wondering if this how you "have fun" with people. Big block quotes of this or that thinker, or one-line summaries of philosophers have not, in my experience, ever led to anything other than a kind of thread-ending entertainment. I find that those sorts of things are the equivalent of turning the punch bowl over. The dance floor clears out and everyone goes home. If you're having fun, don't let me get in the way. Just know that I won't make a habit of engaging in that sort of thing.
mfbukowski Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 (edited) On 2/28/2022 at 2:38 AM, Saint Bonaventure said: I'm not offended in the least, just genuinely wondering if this how you "have fun" with people. Big block quotes of this or that thinker, or one-line summaries of philosophers have not, in my experience, ever led to anything other than a kind of thread-ending entertainment. I find that those sorts of things are the equivalent of turning the punch bowl over. The dance floor clears out and everyone goes home. If you're having fun, don't let me get in the way. Just know that I won't make a habit of engaging in that sort of thing. Ok, thanks for the response! No, I really think sometimes that people with whom I feel a connection will automatically understand what I mean, but it rarely works! I meant to refer to Gaudi, the architect of the VERY unusual cathedral of Sagadra Familia in Spain as "massaging" - aggressively- the traditional "message" of Catholic cathedral architecture as an example of the difference between using media to "massage" an idea aggressively rather than the inevitable distortion that language itself as a medium of communication brings to any "message" that one mind seeks to communicate to another. And yes, I suppose I erred in calling the difference between message and massage a "misquote", but since Mc Luhan approved of the change, I was trying to use it to illustrate MY point! All of this being quite ironic of course since my message became massaged by my own medium, my words. And of course then I threw in others like Wittgenstein who pioneered the thoughts McLuhan parroted for his own fame, the notion that the medium inevitably distorts the pure message it seeks to communicate. My avatar symbolizes the entire notion, since Picasso of course used the idea of the impossibility of "pure representation" of a thing in ANY medium, which was what 20th Century art AND philosophy was all about, to distort what would traditionally be a perfect alleged "representation" of HIS OWN FACE in a "self portrait", when clearly Picasso was perfectly capable of representational drawing. So from around 1900 forward, all of philosophy AND art history are screaming out the idea that any medium distorts reality by trying to represent it, and then in 1967, when I was 19, this bozo McLuhan comes out with his comic book and becomes an overnight sensation. Duh. I guess we need more comic books and less true literature. I did not mean to turn over the punch bowl. I cannot figure out how to explain complex ideas and their histories without becoming a comic book myself. This is not a philosophy board As a summary comic book, McL did well, but did not credit others. Please reply Thanks Edited March 1, 2022 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted March 1, 2022 Posted March 1, 2022 (edited) On 2/20/2022 at 3:39 PM, Saint Bonaventure said: I'm not quite sure how to jump into my questions, so I'll give a little context. Every Catholic church is an example of "the medium is the message," right down to the architecture. There are differences from church to church, but they are all very intentional in the sense that the design, layout, and arrangement of the church itself is a kind of chrysalis for creating Catholics. Even if you can't read or hear, a Catholic church orients a person in relation to God, to one another, and so on. This is true right down to the inevitable main doors, that are thought of in the sense of Christ being "the gate" (John 10; 14 etc.), to the centrality and height of the altar in the sanctuary, to the stations of the cross that encircle the nave, etc. With this in mind, you might imagine my puzzlement when, as I understand it, LDS churches don't really have main doors and that a common arrangement is to have the building architecturally centered on a basketball court. I have other points of confusion regarding LDS architecture, but I'll start with these two (no main doors and basketball court). Perhaps it explains why BYU nearly defeated Saint Mary's yesterday? Here is an example of the media becoming the message/massage. Does this glorify Christ, or of the artist, Gaudi? What is the contrast with our simple utilitarian buildings based on social interaction and thus, spreading the gospel, "built around a basketball court"? Which glorifies Christ better? Sagrada Familia, Barcelona. https://www.etsy.com/listing/270228771/la-sagrada-familia-cathedral-barcelona?ref=share_v4_lx Edited March 1, 2022 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted March 1, 2022 Posted March 1, 2022 On 2/28/2022 at 2:38 AM, Saint Bonaventure said: I'm not offended in the least, just genuinely wondering if this how you "have fun" with people. Big block quotes of this or that thinker, or one-line summaries of philosophers have not, in my experience, ever led to anything other than a kind of thread-ending entertainment. I find that those sorts of things are the equivalent of turning the punch bowl over. The dance floor clears out and everyone goes home. If you're having fun, don't let me get in the way. Just know that I won't make a habit of engaging in that sort of thing. Maybe this will help? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/temples/inside-temples?lang=eng
pogi Posted March 1, 2022 Posted March 1, 2022 On 2/21/2022 at 3:16 PM, MiserereNobis said: Y'all could go with the Grateful Dead's "Wall of Sound," their 1974 PA system: Look at the size of that sucker. 604 speakers total. Each speaker only carried sound for a single instrument or vocal, so it had incredibly clean sound. The people at the back of your chapel would be able to hear just fine, too. (I'm on this board to give information on all things Catholic and Grateful Dead). Ok, having played in a band, I look at that in amazement that the band is actually in front of the wall of sound! What!!!? Usually the band will be behind the PA system with a separate monitor system for stage sound - but I guess in '74, stage monitors were relatively new technology. 1) That keeps the band from going deaf with shows every single night on long tours (those speakers are loud enough for the person in the back of a giant auditorium to hear the music powerfully, and they are standing right in front of them every single night - ouch!; and 2) it prevents feedback from the microphones hearing themselves. How they controlled feedback is beyond me! 3) If every speaker carried sound for a different instrument or mic, the stage sound must have been horrendous as the sweet spot would be somewhere mid auditorium where all the sounds from the different instruments/speakers merge. You are going to hear some things WAY too well, and other things (on the tippy tippy top speakers way above your heard) hardly at all. But dang it made for some legendary concerts, and looks cool as heck!
longview Posted March 1, 2022 Posted March 1, 2022 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: What is the contrast with our simple utilitarian buildings based on social interaction and thus, spreading the gospel, "built around a basketball court"? Just a little change in focus. LDS ward houses are centered around the chapel. Why are basketball courts situated immediately behind the chapel? To enable overflow from the chapel into extra chairs placed in the gym. Why is there a stage placed on the other end of the gym? To provide a theater-like presentations for the enjoyment of the members and interested neighbors (usually on other days of the week). All three facilities encourage greater interactions for the "Body of Christ" in a cheerful, positive manner. 4
mfbukowski Posted March 1, 2022 Posted March 1, 2022 (edited) On 2/21/2022 at 2:16 PM, MiserereNobis said: Y'all could go with the Grateful Dead's "Wall of Sound," their 1974 PA system: Look at the size of that sucker. 604 speakers total. Each speaker only carried sound for a single instrument or vocal, so it had incredibly clean sound. The people at the back of your chapel would be able to hear just fine, too. (I'm on this board to give information on all things Catholic and Grateful Dead). Actually since the Dead are dead, they understand the symbolism of the temple veil which separates the sacred from the mundane, and the blast of sound toward the mundane side represents both the possible harmonies and possible chaos of life. 🤪🤯😱🤔. Getting into the Holy of Holies behind the veil/ communion rail/choir screen takes the Dead into peace and meditative solitude of heaven. https://www.britannica.com/topic/choir-church-architecture "Turn that dang noise off!" Teaches the prophet/ pope/father figure to the teenager! There you go! A new rock n roll religion! https://images.app.goo.gl/VbUXaoF61s8q8qdf9 Edited March 1, 2022 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted March 1, 2022 Posted March 1, 2022 On 2/27/2022 at 4:37 PM, Saint Bonaventure said: Is this part of your comedy act, i.e., your schtick? No. It's been a bit more than "exploring"
mfbukowski Posted March 1, 2022 Posted March 1, 2022 (edited) On 2/21/2022 at 2:16 PM, MiserereNobis said: Duplicate Edited March 1, 2022 by mfbukowski
MiserereNobis Posted March 1, 2022 Posted March 1, 2022 3 hours ago, pogi said: Ok, having played in a band, I look at that in amazement that the band is actually in front of the wall of sound! What!!!? Usually the band will be behind the PA system with a separate monitor system for stage sound - but I guess in '74, stage monitors were relatively new technology. 1) That keeps the band from going deaf with shows every single night on long tours (those speakers are loud enough for the person in the back of a giant auditorium to hear the music powerfully, and they are standing right in front of them every single night - ouch!; and 2) it prevents feedback from the microphones hearing themselves. How they controlled feedback is beyond me! 3) If every speaker carried sound for a different instrument or mic, the stage sound must have been horrendous as the sweet spot would be somewhere mid auditorium where all the sounds from the different instruments/speakers merge. You are going to hear some things WAY too well, and other things (on the tippy tippy top speakers way above your heard) hardly at all. But dang it made for some legendary concerts, and looks cool as heck! Actually, this technology was ground breaking, and by removing monitors the band could hear exactly what the audience was hearing. The band said that the stage sound was perfect. I don't the details of how they made that work out. They controlled feedback by having phased microphones. Think of it like noise cancelling headphones. Here's a picture: Any sound that both microphones picked up was cancelled, so this eliminated feed back. The vocals were sung into the top microphone only, so they were not cancelled. A genius solution. 2
MiserereNobis Posted March 1, 2022 Posted March 1, 2022 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Actually since the Dead are dead Well, 4 of them are still alive, and 3 of them still tour regularly with a band called Dead and Company. We're waiting for the summer tour announcement! 1
pogi Posted March 1, 2022 Posted March 1, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said: Actually, this technology was ground breaking, and by removing monitors the band could hear exactly what the audience was hearing. The band said that the stage sound was perfect. I don't the details of how they made that work out. They controlled feedback by having phased microphones. Think of it like noise cancelling headphones. Here's a picture: Any sound that both microphones picked up was cancelled, so this eliminated feed back. The vocals were sung into the top microphone only, so they were not cancelled. A genius solution. I was reading about the phased microphones they used. Genius! Feedback problem solved! There is no doubt that the Dead were sound tech pioneers and paved the way for live touring bands. Monitors weren't really a thing at the time. Most bands played behind the speakers (usually just a a few amps) and could only hear the sound after it reverberated off of the walls and bounced around the room. It was horrible! Live music sucked back in the day, but the Dead changed everything! So, the wall of sound might be describe as the "perfect" stage sound compared to what they were used to, but compared to a monitor system it had its weaknesses. No doubt that is why the Dead evolved to use a monitor system as the tech became available. More balanced sound and not so dang loud! There is some debate as to who first started using monitors, but some claim that the Dead were the first to use a monitor system designed by Bob Cohen. Onwards and upwards. But at the time, this was revolutionary and made for an unparalleled live experience for the audience and the band. Edited March 1, 2022 by pogi 2
mfbukowski Posted March 2, 2022 Posted March 2, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: Well, 4 of them are still alive, and 3 of them still tour regularly with a band called Dead and Company. We're waiting for the summer tour announcement! I meant in my hypothetical religion where names create things, by calling themselves "dead", they became The Dead. Kind of like how Jacob became "Israel" by struggling with the Lord, he "defined himself" by taking that name. Our entire church is studying that story this week in our Sunday school program. Kinda functions like your liturgical year where during Advent you study about the incarnation, and events leading to the birth of Our Lord. It takes us 4 years to get thru all the standard works, and then we start over But of course we have not baptized you yet.... 🤪😄 They are "the dead" by proxy... Edited March 2, 2022 by mfbukowski
Tacenda Posted March 6, 2022 Posted March 6, 2022 If missionaries are going this route, maybe the church should build architecturally better churches?
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