Controversy Over Utah Pastor's Tweet Re: Woman Posting Pics of Themselves in Revealing Clothing

[SeekingUnderstanding]

5 minutes ago, Nofear said:

While it can certainly be unconscious, many women do try to be more attractive when they are ovulating or when they are seeking social status (e.g. job promotion).

One example study. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18719219/

And there is nothing wrong with that. The church only seems to draw the line at certain types of attractiveness enhancers. Just all temple square sisters or you could try and get Elder Ballards advice on lip stick. 

[bsjkki]

36 minutes ago, James 1 5 said:

I think the issue is very complex.  Women want to be attractive for men, and men want to be attractive for women, and sometimes one doesn't know or realize they can go over the top in public.  Consider a teenage YW who is just naturally very attractive regardless of what she wears, whether modest or immodest.  Now imagine her Dad seeing her in cut-off jeans and a low-cut T-shirt, just being herself, natural, innocent, wanting to be attractive to boys her age with the Dad then saying something like"

Whoa there, daughter!  That is a bit too much (meaning it isn't enough clothing) and then "advising" her that she should consider wearing something else, something more modest, and less revealing.

And then what?  Does his daughter take his "advice" or does she try to shut him down, ridiculing him or his morals or intent?  The Dad is a man who was once a YM and he knows better than her about how YM will find her attractive.  And what does the Mom say?  Does she agree with her husband's "advice" or does she try to shut her husband down, too, giving him the impression that he should just keep his opinion to himself?

 

You know my, mother in law (she's the absolute best) often told me the story of making her daughter return a mini skirt she had bought from the mall. She bought her a much more expensive skirt to replace it. For so many years I would think that this was the right action to take. Well, her daughter no longer goes to church and quit going at age 16. Sometimes, it depends. I have a child who really resents that I insisted on a Mormon modest prom dress out here where it is not the norm. She felt out of style and uncomfortable among her peers. I know we hear the story of strong girls boldly going against the 'norms' but most teenagers I know are bundles of insecurity. So, it depends. I no longer choose to fight the clothing wars. 

And in some ways, the dad is the one 'sexualizing' her in this instance. She has no intent.  The dad is pointing it out to her. So, is that healthy? It seems like in your example, the dad is the one who is uncomfortable. So much of sexual attraction depends on the personal attributes of the individual. Girls can wear the exact same clothes and look completely different in them. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by bsjkki

[rchorse]

Is there any evidence of correlation between perceived attractiveness and likelihood of being raped? Even better is there such evidence independent of what was being worn?

I doubt rape has much, if anything, to do with the attractiveness of the woman. It's all about power, sadism, and how easy a target the woman is. Also, how likely the man is to get caught or not.

In other words, it's all about the man doing the raping and his selfish and sick desires.

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I find the whole thing very vile, but am trying not to engage with certain posters to prevent thread bans. Perhaps that doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. The ideas espoused by the Pastor are a load of horse sh*t. Same for the ideas that clothing influences rape. My wife has been groped and assaulted on separate occasions and in neither case could she have been said to be close to “immodest” dress. Men are responsible for their own thoughts and actions full stop period. No need to discuss further. 

Thank You!

I am out of rep points too. A number of posts I would love to rep on this thread but couldn’t. 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, rchorse said:

Is there any evidence of correlation between perceived attractiveness and likelihood of being raped? Even better is there such evidence independent of what was being worn?

I doubt rape has much, if anything, to do with the attractiveness of the woman. It's all about power, sadism, and how easy a target the woman is. Also, how likely the man is to get caught or not.

In other words, it's all about the man doing the raping and his selfish and sick desires.

Another plus. Thank you for adding your comments. 

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Nofear said:

While it can certainly be unconscious, many women do try to be more attractive when they are ovulating or when they are seeking social status (e.g. job promotion).

One example study. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18719219/

Seeking to be attractive is NOT the same as being provocative. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Calm

[bsjkki]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Thank You!

I am out of rep points too. A number of posts I would love to rep on this thread but couldn’t. 

I'm in the same boat. 

[BlueDreams]

32 minutes ago, James 1 5 said:

I think the issue is very complex.  Women want to be attractive for men, and men want to be attractive for women, and sometimes one doesn't know or realize they can go over the top in public.  Consider a teenage YW who is just naturally very attractive regardless of what she wears, whether modest or immodest.  Now imagine her Dad seeing her in cut-off jeans and a low-cut T-shirt, just being herself, natural, innocent, wanting to be attractive to boys her age with the Dad then saying something like"

Whoa there, daughter!  That is a bit too much (meaning it isn't enough clothing) and then "advising" her that she should consider wearing something else, something more modest, and less revealing.

And then what?  Does his daughter take his "advice" or does she try to shut him down, ridiculing him or his morals or intent?  The Dad is a man who was once a YM and he knows better than her about how YM will find her attractive.  And what does the Mom say?  Does she agree with her husband's "advice" or does she try to shut her husband down, too, giving him the impression that he should just keep his opinion to himself?

 

I wonder quite a bit how much more useful all this energy on “helping” girls dress more modestly could be better used helping men learn to control themselves and teaching them how to speak up when they see men acting inappropriately both directly to a girl/woman or when with the guys. Would there be less concern for needing to be concerned for that cuter teen. 

besides I was her. It didn’t work. “Modesty,” as culturally used, did jacksh*t to keep unwanted male attention floating my way while doing normal daily stuff. 
 

with luv, 

BD 

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

besides I was her. It didn’t work. “Modesty,” as culturally used, did jacksh*t to keep unwanted male attention floating my way while doing normal daily stuff. 

Same here.  I was extremely shy, introverted, only wore pants, mostly somewhat loose jeans and looser the shirts the better as I disliked tightness, no cleavage showing, and still got it.   I got a young man trying to give me gifts just because I was polite to him in high school. College I had one tell me he was going to court me after his mission out of the blue, no relationship beyond simple acquaintances.  Then there was the cat calls walking down the street or riding my bike, the guy who pulled out my carburetor so I would have to talk to him in an empty parking lot, grown men making comments…ugh. 
 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Calm

[BlueDreams]

37 minutes ago, Nofear said:

While it can certainly be unconscious, many women do try to be more attractive when they are ovulating or when they are seeking social status (e.g. job promotion).

One example study. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18719219/

Oh no, it’s definitely not subconscious for me. I look so much better around ovulation and I love it. Why wouldn’t I celebrate my skin glowing and feeling more perty? 
 

and looking good for things like interviews is me working the system. It’s the same reason I prefer to look nice at airports.  Though I’m also aware that as a brown woman there’s a quick slide into negative stereotypes and assumptions if I don’t. So sometimes it’s more to just get me decent service period. 
 

fun facts

With luv, 

BD 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

52 minutes ago, James 1 5 said:

I think the issue is very complex.  Women want to be attractive for men, and men want to be attractive for women, and sometimes one doesn't know or realize they can go over the top in public.  Consider a teenage YW who is just naturally very attractive regardless of what she wears, whether modest or immodest.  Now imagine her Dad seeing her in cut-off jeans and a low-cut T-shirt, just being herself, natural, innocent, wanting to be attractive to boys her age with the Dad then saying something like"

Whoa there, daughter!  That is a bit too much (meaning it isn't enough clothing) and then "advising" her that she should consider wearing something else, something more modest, and less revealing.

And then what?  Does his daughter take his "advice" or does she try to shut him down, ridiculing him or his morals or intent?  The Dad is a man who was once a YM and he knows better than her about how YM will find her attractive.  And what does the Mom say?  Does she agree with her husband's "advice" or does she try to shut her husband down, too, giving him the impression that he should just keep his opinion to himself?

 

Most teenage boys are going to have sexual thoughts. A LOT of them. Probably the same is true for girls but I wouldn’t know. These thoughts are normal, and healthy and should be embraced as part of the human experience. By telling young men that if they are righteous they won’t have them. That’s a problem. By looking to blame someone else for a biological reaction - that’s a problem. We need to teach young men how to productively experience their sexuality rather than suppress it. Teach them boundaries and consent. Teach them respect and self control. Stop trying to control women. 

[Calm]

1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Probably the same is true for girls but I wouldn’t know.

There was this one time at work at the library all the female pages got together in the basement….

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

That is the crux of the matter. There is no way for women/girls to cover up enough to not be attractive to men. This is usually when these discussions end. IMO, men try to control the way women dress because they are attracted to women and know they need to control their own thoughts and actions but think it may be easier to control women instead. 

I'm out of likes too.  I bolded that last part for the people in the back.  

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I find the whole thing very vile, but am trying not to engage with certain posters to prevent thread bans. Perhaps that doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. The ideas espoused by the Pastor are a load of horse sh*t. Same for the ideas that clothing influences rape. My wife has been groped and assaulted on separate occasions and in neither case could she have been said to be close to “immodest” dress. Men are responsible for their own thoughts and actions full stop period. No need to discuss further. 

I'm out of likes but amen to that.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

13 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Most teenage boys are going to have sexual thoughts. A LOT of them. Probably the same is true for girls but I wouldn’t know. These thoughts are normal, and healthy and should be embraced as part of the human experience. By telling young men that if they are righteous they won’t have them. That’s a problem. By looking to blame someone else for a biological reaction - that’s a problem. We need to teach young men how to productively experience their sexuality rather than suppress it. Teach them boundaries and consent. Teach them respect and self control. Stop trying to control women. 

From for strength of youth: “Do not do anything else that arouses sexual feelings. Do not arouse those emotions in your own body. Pay attention to the promptings of the Spirit so that you can be clean and virtuous. The Spirit of the Lord will withdraw from one who is in sexual transgression.”

 

This sets an impossibly high standard that results in shame and blame. 

[bluebell]

32 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Oh no, it’s definitely not subconscious for me. I look so much better around ovulation and I love it. Why wouldn’t I celebrate my skin glowing and feeling more perty? 
 

and looking good for things like interviews is me working the system. It’s the same reason I prefer to look nice at airports.  Though I’m also aware that as a brown woman there’s a quick slide into negative stereotypes and assumptions if I don’t. So sometimes it’s more to just get me decent service period. 
 

fun facts

With luv, 

BD 

Yes!  There are times of the month when I feel like the cross between a slug and a hag, and times when I feel fun and pretty.  I'm going to live up the good times as much as I can.

[bluebell]

22 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Most teenage boys are going to have sexual thoughts. A LOT of them. Probably the same is true for girls but I wouldn’t know. These thoughts are normal, and healthy and should be embraced as part of the human experience. By telling young men that if they are righteous they won’t have them. That’s a problem. By looking to blame someone else for a biological reaction - that’s a problem. We need to teach young men how to productively experience their sexuality rather than suppress it. Teach them boundaries and consent. Teach them respect and self control. Stop trying to control women. 

Yes please.  Please let's have a more healthy understanding of modesty, and sexuality.

[bluebell]

39 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I wonder quite a bit how much more useful all this energy on “helping” girls dress more modestly could be better used helping men learn to control themselves and teaching them how to speak up when they see men acting inappropriately both directly to a girl/woman or when with the guys. Would there be less concern for needing to be concerned for that cuter teen. 

besides I was her. It didn’t work. “Modesty,” as culturally used, did jacksh*t to keep unwanted male attention floating my way while doing normal daily stuff. 
 

with luv, 

BD 

 

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

Same here.  I was extremely shy, introverted, only wore pants, mostly somewhat loose jeans and looser the shirts the better as I disliked tightness, no cleavage showing, and still got it.   I got a young man trying to give me gifts just because I was polite to him in high school. College I had one tell me he was going to court me after his mission out of the blue, no relationship beyond simple acquaintances.  Then there was the cat calls walking down the street or riding my bike, the guy who pulled out my carburetor so I would have to talk to him in an empty parking lot, grown men making comments…ugh. 
 

Same.  When you realize that there is nothing you can do to keep from experiencing unwanted sexual attention (grown men began catcalling me when I was 11), and yet you are taught that it's your job to stop unwanted sexual attention, that messes you up.

[ttribe]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

 

Same.  When you realize that there is nothing you can do to keep from experiencing unwanted sexual attention (grown men began catcalling me when I was 11), and yet you are taught that it's your job to stop unwanted sexual attention, that messes you up.

Obviously, I haven't experienced this situation, but I have seen it impacting women who I care about (friends, family, etc.). The importance of pushing back against this double bind cannot be overstated.

[bsjkki]

14 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

From for strength of youth: “Do not do anything else that arouses sexual feelings. Do not arouse those emotions in your own body. Pay attention to the promptings of the Spirit so that you can be clean and virtuous. The Spirit of the Lord will withdraw from one who is in sexual transgression.”

 

This sets an impossibly high standard that results in shame and blame. 

It really needs an update. No wonder we have a thread on 'never doing enough' which discusses shame and unhealthy goals. This stuff needs revision. Here is a lovely copy of the 1965 version. This is updateable. Imgur: The magic of the Internet

[Fether]

32 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

From for strength of youth: “Do not do anything else that arouses sexual feelings. Do not arouse those emotions in your own body. Pay attention to the promptings of the Spirit so that you can be clean and virtuous. The Spirit of the Lord will withdraw from one who is in sexual transgression.”

 

This sets an impossibly high standard that results in shame and blame. 

As someone who viewed pornography from age 9-17, I don’t ever remember feeling shame. Not saying it doesn’t happen, but shame is not forced upon us.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

It really needs an update. No wonder we have a thread on 'never doing enough' which discusses shame and unhealthy goals. This stuff needs revision. Here is a lovely copy of the 1965 version. This is updateable. Imgur: The magic of the Internet

How in the world is one supposed to enhance their natural beauty without calling attention to their body?  

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Fether said:

I don’t ever remember feeling shame.

Lucky you.  Seriously mean that.

Quote

Do shame and guilt help people avoid doing wrong? Although some research suggests that guilt-proneness is a protective factor while shame-proneness puts individuals at risk, most research is either cross-sectional or short-term. In this longitudinal study, 380 5th graders (ages 10–12) completed measures of proneness to shame and guilt. We re-interviewed 68% of participants after they turned 18 years old (range 18–21). Guilt-proneness assessed in childhood predicted fewer sexual partners, less use of illegal drugs and alcohol, and less involvement with the criminal justice system. Shame-proneness, in contrast, was a risk factor for later deviant behavior. Shame-prone children were more likely to have unprotected sex and use illegal drugs in young adulthood. These results held when controlling for childhood SES and teachers’ ratings of aggression. Children’s moral emotional styles appear to be well established by at least middle childhood, with distinct downstream implications for risky behavior in early adulthood

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4239200/

Then there are studies linking shame and depression and other lovely things.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Calm

[bsjkki]

Just now, Fether said:

As someone who viewed pornography from age 9-17, I don’t ever remember feeling shame. Not saying it doesn’t happen, but shame is not forced upon us.

Lucky you. Personally, I'm a bit old. I feel like things while I was raising kids were much more uptight than when I was growing up. But, I grew up part member so maybe that skewed my memories. Definitely have seen lots of shaming around the topics of porn and masturbation. I think I would go to bat for the young men here as much as I go to bat for the young women and modesty lessons. There are some pendulums' that need to swing to healthy places. 

[bsjkki]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

How in the world is one supposed to enhance their natural beauty without calling attention to their body?  

It's funny now to read over that. What will people think of the current version in the future?