Controversy Over Utah Pastor's Tweet Re: Woman Posting Pics of Themselves in Revealing Clothing

[bluebell]

41 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Actually, @Calm incorrectly relays what I said. 

What Calm said I said: "suggestive attire increases risk of assault"
What I actually said: "Women can increase or decrease their risk of being sexually assaulted, in certain situations, by how they choose to dress."

I said a thing that is true.  If people want to read something into what I said, (like victim blaming, or some rape isn't rape, or only attractively dressed women get raped, or other horribly untrue nonsense), that's their problem.  I didn't say any of that nonsense.  I didn't mean any of that nonsense.  I don't believe any of that nonsense. 

 

CFR please, that it's true that women can both increase and decrease their likelihood of being sexually assaulted based solely on what they are wearing.  In this discussion, it'll be helpful to read the data and studies for ourselves I think.

[bsjkki]

28 minutes ago, Fether said:

@Calm
Would a better standard of modesty be “don’t do or wear anything with the intention to draw sexual attention to yourself”?

This would prevent people from pointing fingers cause we don’t know what others intentions are 

What is sexual attention? Is that attraction? Both men and women dress to attract members of the opposite sex. It is normal behavior. This thread is tiring. We've been here so many times before. I think we should spend more time teaching consent because rape/sexual assault and even coercive sex is much more detrimental to the souls of men and women. It causes long lasting emotional and physical harm with generational consequences. But, here we are debating female modesty. SMH. Will we ever be past this? 

The Strength of Youth booklet on modesty is outdated and sexist. It is not doctrinal. It is a policy that needs updating. The whole pamphlet needs updating. It has changed drastically through the decades, and I can't wait for new changes.  

Edited February 10, 2022 by bsjkki

[bluebell]

18 minutes ago, Fether said:

@Calm
Would a better standard of modesty be “don’t do or wear anything with the intention to draw sexual attention to yourself”?

This would prevent people from pointing fingers cause we don’t know what others intentions are 

But then anyone who dresses to specifically attract the romantic attention of the opposite sex would be immodest.   I don't think that works.

[bluebell]

Just now, bsjkki said:

What is sexual attention? Is that attraction. Both men and women dress to attract members of the opposite sex. It is normal behavior. This thread is tiring. We've been here so many times before. I think we should spend more time teaching consent because rape/sexual assault and even coercive sex is much more detrimental to the souls of men and women. It causes long lasting emotional and physical harm with generational consequences. But, here we are debating female modesty. SMH. Will we ever be past this? 

The Strength of Youth booklet on modesty is outdated and sexist. It is not doctrinal. It is a policy that needs updating. The whole pamphlet needs updating. It has changed drastically through the decades, and I can't wait for new changes.  

I was just thinking the same thing.  These discussions always devolve into the men wanting detailed descriptions of what women think on the subject, and then arguing about how their thoughts aren't correct after they share them.

It's mentally and emotionally tiresome.

[BlueDreams]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

Pastor Causes Outrage After Saying Women Should Never Post Photos Of Themselves In Bikinis, Bra Or Underwear

I'm interested in hearing your perspectives on this.  

I'm also curious as to reactions like these.

I don't like men telling me what I can or can't post about my body while proclaiming to be my brother. If he gave similar advice to men, then maybe it would be better. But overall I don't enjoy people getting hypervigilant about things that are not actually sexual and making them more sexual than they really are. There's a difference between a provocative image of a woman in a bikini or low cut shirt a woman in the same attire posing with her family on the beach. There's a difference between provocative undies pics and my cousin posting about her weight loss journey with befores and afters. There's a difference betwee a provocative breast pic and a woman first nursing a newborn after birth. I'm not a big fan of placing a blanket statement that bare skin on people = sexual. I'm adamently opposed to making women's bare skin extra provocative because it exists on a female. 

 

Quote

Again, what are your thoughts on his response to the criticisms he has received?

1) I'm uncertain what's his definition of sexual or provocative images. After his last insistence on not showing skin ever in any scene, I question his litmus test for sexual pics.

2) I find it annoying that he's assuming these women must be "liberal feminists" who supported #metoo. That's a leap in assumptions. If they're actually oversexualized pics, it's more likely trolls online doing what trolls do best.

3) throughout I find him a little pompous. I'm not a big fan of his throway "we're all sinners" rhetoric in this dialogue. His idea of "sin" seems pretty broad and I think it's unfair/unhealthy to label innocent actions as such.

 

me thoughts..

with luv,

BD

 

[bsjkki]

@Calm Web captured to get your quotes.

 

What is revealing? What is sexually suggestive clothing? What length of shorts is 'short?' What length of skirt? What is 'tight.' What does 'revealing in any manner mean?' What is 'low cut?' How does a young man maintain modesty. No bare chests or shoulders? Why not specify. This is a whole section that lets everyone make a subjective opinion about definitions. IMO, it creates lots of finger pointing, judging and an uncharitable environment. 

Edited February 10, 2022 by bsjkki

[Vanguard]

39 minutes ago, Calm said:

No, I can’t at the moment or for a number of hours most likely.  Someone can look for the Justice Dept report reported in quote I posted if interested enough in actual data and not just a summary.

No worries. : )

It's the summaries that are the problem though. These articles seem to claim things that are not born out in the links they provide. I think I found the references you provided from a few hours ago - 

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/provocative-clothing-rape-causes

https://www.huffpost.com/archive/ca/entry/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit-brussels_a_23333795

This first link actually referenced the Justice Dept findings by providing their own link to it. From that link and for the life of me, I could not find where is was established that women's attire do not play a role much less that men are especially prone to believe this.

Your 2nd link here was much like bluebell's earlier links. It did not establish what you are both claiming and in fact, if you read down toward the end of the article, it listed several women who believed attire can affect outcomes of this nature. Of course, a few women claiming this does not make it so. I did find it interesting though considering your claim that men especially struggle with this, as you've suggested though not yet evidenced, false notion.

And of course, I could still have missed it in the provided articles or findings or perhaps you provided additional links in a later post. In my defense, the Justice Dept research article was very tedious to track and locate the pertinent info.

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Vanguard

[smac97]

1 minute ago, BlueDreams said:

I don't like men telling me what I can or can't post about my body while proclaiming to be my brother.

Do you have similar dislike for advice of this sort from other women?

1 minute ago, BlueDreams said:

If he gave similar advice to men, then maybe it would be better.

I can understand that.

1 minute ago, BlueDreams said:

But overall I don't enjoy people getting hypervigilant about things that are not actually sexual and making them more sexual than they really are.

I can understand and appreciate that.

1 minute ago, BlueDreams said:

There's a difference between a provocative image of a woman in a bikini or low cut shirt a woman in the same attire posing with her family on the beach.  There's a difference between provocative undies pics and my cousin posting about her weight loss journey with befores and afters. There's a difference betwee a provocative breast pic and a woman first nursing a newborn after birth. I'm not a big fan of placing a blanket statement that bare skin on people = sexual.

Yes.  These are reasonable and principled distinctions.  

If the pastor had been a bit more nuanced, would that rehabilitate the tweet?  Or was it altogether inappropriate in your view?

1 minute ago, BlueDreams said:

I'm adamently opposed to making women's bare skin extra provocative because it exists on a female. 

Okay.

1 minute ago, BlueDreams said:

1) I'm uncertain what's his definition of sexual or provocative images. After his last insistence on not showing skin ever in any scene, I question his litmus test for sexual pics.

2) I find it annoying that he's assuming these women must be "liberal feminists" who supported #metoo. That's a leap in assumptions. If they're actually oversexualized pics, it's more likely trolls online doing what trolls do best.

3) throughout I find him a little pompous. I'm not a big fan of his throway "we're all sinners" rhetoric in this dialogue. His idea of "sin" seems pretty broad and I think it's unfair/unhealthy to label innocent actions as such.

Good thoughts.  Thank you for taking time to share them.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Fether]

14 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

What is sexual attention? Is that attraction? Both men and women dress to attract members of the opposite sex.

Good news is we don’t have to define it. It would be up the the individual and to what extent they wish to obey

[Fether]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But then anyone who dresses to specifically attract the romantic attention of the opposite sex would be immodest.   I don't think that works.

What should the standard be?

[James 1 5]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

Pastor Causes Outrage After Saying Women Should Never Post Photos Of Themselves In Bikinis, Bra Or Underwear

I'm interested in hearing your perspectives on this.  

I'm also curious as to reactions like these.

Again, what are your thoughts on his response to the criticisms he has received?

For me, it seems like there are a few topics that are of such import, sensitivity, and about which there are such diversities of viewpoints and opinions, that they (the topics) should always be addressed with great care, with much tact, decorum, civility, and so on.  Public commentary about modesty in women's clothing, particularly by men, is one of those topics.

Here, I have some reservations about the time, place and manner of the pastor's comments.  They come across as unsolicited (being addressed to all women, everywhere), somewhat brash, and somewhat insolent.  And while I think he is correct to object to inappropriate reactions to his comments (sending him "unsolicited sexual images and videos"), I think he also should have remained focused on the subject matter.  Perhaps he could have found a way to advance and improve the discussion by responding to reactions that were appropriate.

This story has also caused some introspection for myself.  I need to consider some of the things I say that might likewise be brash, insolent, or otherwise inappropriate in terms of time, place and manner.

Anyway, thoughts all around?

Thanks,

-Smac

If any man (or woman) addresses any comment to all people in general wherever they may be while they have the ability to respond to that comment, then that man (or woman) should EXPECT to get some responses from various types of people.

Some who respond will say they agree, and some who respond will say they do not agree.  And some who do not agree may use some pejorative term(s) regarding the comment and the man (or woman) who made that comment.

We are a world of people with varied opinions and all of us will never agree on any issue. 

Some people will think a comment is intended to be in the best interest of others while some other people will think that comment was stupid and should have never been uttered.

[Calm]

deleted because going a little wonky…and no one else would think it funny

Edited February 10, 2022 by Calm

[bsjkki]

2 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

No worries. : )

It's the summaries that are the problem though. These articles seem to claim things that are not born out in the links they provide. I think I found the references you provided from a few hours ago - 

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/provocative-clothing-rape-causes

https://www.huffpost.com/archive/ca/entry/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit-brussels_a_23333795

This first link actually referenced the Justice Dept findings by providing their own link to it. From that link and for the life of me, I could not find where is was established that women's attire do not play a role much less that men are especially prone to believe this.

Your 2nd link here was much like bluebell's earlier links. It did not establish what you are both claiming and in fact, if you read down toward the end of the article, it listed several women who believed attire can affect outcomes of this nature. Of course, a few women claiming this does not make it so. I did find it interesting though considering your claim that men especially struggle with this, as you've suggested though not yet evidenced, false notion.

And of course, I could still have missed it in the provided articles or findings. In my defense, the Justice Dept research article was very tedious to track and locate the pertinent info.

 

Here. Majority of men believe women more likely to be sexually assaulted if wearing revealing clothes, study suggests | The Independent | The Independent

 

[bsjkki]

More

Is Clothing Probative of Attitude or Intent - Implications for Rape and Sexual Harassment Cases (umn.edu)

 

The myth of control comes into play here:

[bsjkki]

After reading through this discussion, I would not want many of you as jurors in a rape trial. 

[James 1 5]

People who say rape is about violence against woman rather than about the clothes a woman wears are of course correct.  Rape is a violent act.  Rape is not a wardrobe choice. A wardrobe choice can make a woman more enticing as in more attractive, though.

Edited February 11, 2022 by James 1 5

[Fether]

6 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

After reading through this discussion, I would not want many of you as jurors in a rape trial. 

I think everyone on here would agree whoever did the raping is 100% responsible and will be convicted to the fullest extent of the law and with 0 mercy. Even if the victim was a prostitute

Im just confused how we got so detailed on to the topic of rape. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Fether

[bsjkki]

7 minutes ago, Fether said:

I think everyone on here would agree whoever did the raping is 100% responsible and will be convicted to the fullest extent of the law and with 0 mercy. Even if the victim was a prostitute

Im just confused how we got so detailed on to the topic of rape. 

It was here.

 

[BlueDreams]

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Do you have similar dislike for advice of this sort from other women?

Yeah, for the most part. If it's the same line of reasoning I would still have a problem with it and see it as still policing female modesty more than men and therefore maintaining sexist modesty/chastity boundaries that tend to fall heavier on women. More often than not, women are the ones called to police female modesty lines. It's just a little creepier when men do it. 

 

Quote

If the pastor had been a bit more nuanced, would that rehabilitate the tweet?  Or was it altogether inappropriate in your view?

 

I got curious and looked through a lot of his other recent tweets. I strongly strongly doubt there's a way that I wouldn't be uncomfortable with his views. Here's a quote from one of them:

Quote

A brief of exhortation to my Christian brothers in light of the absolute tsunami of sexual temptation they face every day. Brothers, you have no choice but to live in a world where even some of your professed Christian sisters parade their bottoms and breasts in front of you. Be what they are so often not being, and love your enemies. Love them enough to honor them even when they can't even be bothered to honor themselves. And when you fall, remember your Father's mercy. He is slow to anger. He looks on Christ and pardons us.

It's patronizing, creepy, and a little nauseating for me to watch someone describe women this way and proclaim them "Your enemy" just because they're "sexual temptation." Throwing in commands to "love your enemy" does not make this somehow better.

Here's another:

Quote

There's a theme in the Proverbs—a book about preparing sons for godly kingship—that is more relevant today than ever before. It's something like: Sons, there are women in this world who will put their bodies on a hook to lure you in and kill you. Don't give them your strength.

Again there's this brotherhood against the evil temptress language that puts women who are tempting to a man as an enemy or evil. He may not "mean" it that way...but the steps to get to that are really really short. I'm not surprised how people are reading this as having mysogynistic undertones. This guy may not hate all women obviously. But he does paint certain women who do not act in the way he sees as right as "enemies" and dangerous. And most of the posts I've read focus on women in terms of male sexual problems. Women do not feel like fully fleshed out human beings with compassionate stories. They're flat and objectified into either a supporting role to christian men or as enemy temptresses luring righteous men from god's glory. That is always going to be repugnant to me. That will always scream sexist for me. 

 

With luv,

BD

[bsjkki]

11 minutes ago, James 1 5 said:

People who say rape is about violence against woman rather than about the clothes a woman wears are of course correct.  Rape is a violent act.  Rape is not a wardrobe choice. A wardrobe choice can entice someone to rape, though.

And that is on them. In the above law paper 87% of rapists did not list it as a factor. It is not pleasant to research why people rape. 

[bsjkki]

2 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Yeah, for the most part. If it's the same line of reasoning I would still have a problem with it and see it as still policing female modesty more than men and therefore maintaining sexist modesty/chastity boundaries that tend to fall heavier on women. More often than not, women are the ones called to police female modesty lines. It's just a little creepier when men do it. 

 

 

I got curious and looked through a lot of his other recent tweets. I strongly strongly doubt there's a way that I wouldn't be uncomfortable with his views. Here's a quote from one of them:

It's patronizing, creepy, and a little nauseating for me to watch someone describe women this way and proclaim them "Your enemy" just because they're "sexual temptation." Throwing in commands to "love your enemy" does not make this somehow better.

Here's another:

Again there's this brotherhood against the evil temptress language that puts women who are tempting to a man as an enemy or evil. He may not "mean" it that way...but the steps to get to that are really really short. I'm not surprised how people are reading this as having mysogynistic undertones. This guy may not hate all women obviously. But he does paint certain women who do not act in the way he sees as right as "enemies" and dangerous. And most of the posts I've read focus on women in terms of male sexual problems. Women do not feel like fully fleshed out human beings with compassionate stories. They're flat and objectified into either a supporting role to christian men or as enemy temptresses luring righteous men from god's glory. That is always going to be repugnant to me. That will always scream sexist for me. 

 

With luv,

BD

This is really harmful. This rhetoric actually seems to encourage men to view women as objects instead of people. I find it highly problematic and dehumanizing. This could actually encourage the 'they were asking for it' mentality. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by bsjkki

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, James 1 5 said:

A wardrobe choice can entice someone to rape, though.

Document it or stop saying it.  Do you not comprehend the damage you are doing if you are wrong?  
 

Are you not reading what has been posted?
 

If you are saying provocative attire entices, which is another word for invites btw, someone to rape, then why are women who are wearing less provocative clothing more likely to be assaulted?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/articles/200901/marked-mayhem

Quote

But studies show that it is women with passive, submissive personalities who are most likely to be raped—and that they tend to wear body-concealing clothing, such as high necklines, long pants and sleeves, and multiple layers. Predatory men can accurately identify submissive women just by their style of dress and other aspects of appearance. The hallmarks of submissive body language, such as downward gaze and slumped posture, may even be misinterpreted by rapists as flirtation.

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Calm

[Fether]

19 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

It was here.

 

Well I know where it started. I’m just surprised it blew up

[ttribe]

Men telling women to conform to men's definition of modesty = condescending and an effort to exercise power over women

Men telling women that how they dress leads to sexual assault = false, manipulative and an effort to exercise power over women

Men telling women that they shouldn't be upset about men telling them to be 'modest' = toxic paternalism and an effort to exercise power over women

 

Hmmm...I'm seeing a pattern.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

women's attire do not play a role

Washington Post link…and I can’t get back in to see if they provided a link to the Federal Commission on Crime of Violence Study report that only 4.4% of rapes involve provocative behaviour including clothing, thus making it rather clear provocative clothing choice most likely does not affect risks of rape.

edited to correct Justice Dept…my bad

Edited February 11, 2022 by Calm