Controversy Over Utah Pastor's Tweet Re: Woman Posting Pics of Themselves in Revealing Clothing

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Fether said:

Well I know where it started. I’m just surprised it blew up

When men (and women do it too, but I am speaking about in this thread where several men have made the claim in some variation) keep saying wardrobe choice, implying so called revealing clothing, will increase risk of assault or entice to rape is it really that surprising to get blowback when the data says it is wrong and such attitudes result in victims blaming themselves for being raped?
 

Plus it can give a false sense of safety when avoiding rape is better done by learning to walk in confident ways and avoid submissive body language, avoiding certain types of location, sticking with a group, and avoiding drugs and alcohol.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Calm

[bluebell]

39 minutes ago, James 1 5 said:

A wardrobe choice can entice someone to rape, though.

CFR.  Please provide the reference that supports that this is a fact. 

[bluebell]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

Document it or stop saying it.  Do you not comprehend the damage you are doing if you are wrong?  
 

Are you not reading what has been posted?
 

If you are saying provocative attire entices, which is another word for invites btw, someone to rape, then why are women who are wearing less provocative clothing more likely to be assaulted?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/articles/200901/marked-mayhem

 

Why is it only women speaking out against this horrible stuff on here?  I'm really hoping they are all just having dinner right now.

[bsjkki]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Washington Post link…and I can’t get back in to see if they provided a link to the Justice Dept report that only 4.4% of rapes involve provocative clothing, thus making it rather clear provocative clothing choice most likely does not affect risks of rape.

And imo, I think it is a justification by the rapist for his actions. Not really why he rapes. 

[bsjkki]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Why is it only women speaking out against this horrible stuff on here?  I'm really hoping they are all just having dinner right now.

It's sad. 

[James 1 5]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

Document it or stop saying it.  Do you not comprehend the damage you are doing if you are wrong?  
 

Are you not reading what has been posted?
 

If you are saying provocative attire entices, which is another word for invites btw, someone to rape, then why are women who are wearing less provocative clothing more likely to be assaulted?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/articles/200901/marked-mayhem

 

Any damage done by me saying something that is not correct is only that I am saying something that is not correct.  Nobody here is required to believe me or anyone else who is sharing what they think.  

Perhaps I did overstate my point.  I will now retract my statement and try to be more true to my thoughts and feelings.

I don't know if what a woman wears makes her enticing to a rapist.  A woman's wardrobe choice may not make any difference at all to a rapist.  I am not a rapist and have no real idea how a rapist thinks.

I will say that a woman's wardrobe choice can make her more enticing to me, though.  I would never consider raping a woman, regardless of what she wears or does not wear.  But I have noticed how some wardrobe choices make women attractive to men.

[ttribe]

1 minute ago, James 1 5 said:

Any damage done by me saying something that is not correct is only that I am saying something that is not correct.  Nobody here is required to believe me or anyone else who is sharing what they think.  

Perhaps I did overstate my point.  I will now retract my statement and try to be more true to my thoughts and feelings.

I don't know if what a woman wears makes her enticing to a rapist.  A woman's wardrobe choice may not make any difference at all to a rapist.  I am not a rapist and have no real idea how a rapist thinks.

I will say that a woman's wardrobe choice can make her more enticing to me, though.  I would never consider raping a woman, regardless of what she wears or does not wear.  But I have noticed how some wardrobe choices make women attractive to men.

Then you need to have proper self-control to avoid 'sin;' women don't need to be forced to change for your benefit.

[James 1 5]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

CFR.  Please provide the reference that supports that this is a fact. 

I have retracted that statement.  

[bsjkki]

14 minutes ago, James 1 5 said:

Any damage done by me saying something that is not correct is only that I am saying something that is not correct.  Nobody here is required to believe me or anyone else who is sharing what they think.  

Perhaps I did overstate my point.  I will now retract my statement and try to be more true to my thoughts and feelings.

I don't know if what a woman wears makes her enticing to a rapist.  A woman's wardrobe choice may not make any difference at all to a rapist.  I am not a rapist and have no real idea how a rapist thinks.

I will say that a woman's wardrobe choice can make her more enticing to me, though.  I would never consider raping a woman, regardless of what she wears or does not wear.  But I have noticed how some wardrobe choices make women attractive to men.

You realize this is the birds and the bees and God designed things this way. Women really like men in suits and athletic attire etc... Maybe we should require men wear sloppy oversized sweats and/or a male burqa. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by bsjkki

[Calm]

Anyone have a Washington Post subscription?  It is impossible to find anything searching a government site…or so it feels like today.  I am hoping the WP provides a direct link to the report.

[James 1 5]

17 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Then you need to have proper self-control to avoid 'sin;' women don't need to be forced to change for your benefit.

I do exercise proper control when I am with women who are enticing or attractive to me.  And I would never try to force any woman to change her clothing.  I would tell a woman how I thought she looked if I felt like it, though.

[James 1 5]

9 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

You realize this is the birds and the bees and God designed things this way. Women really like men in suits and athletic attire etc... Maybe we should require men wear sloppy oversized sweats and/or a male burqa. 

There is no "requiring" going on here.  The man referenced in the OP was not "requiring" women to dress a particular way.  He merely shared his thoughts and feelings about some women's wardrobe choices.

And everyone who read what he said is free to agree or disagree with his opinion.  He is not requiring anyone to accept his opinion.  He's just putting it out there for people to read and consider.  In America we are free to share what we think.

[bsjkki]

1 minute ago, James 1 5 said:

There is no "requiring" going on here.  The man referenced in the OP was not "requiring" women to dress a particular way.  He merely shared his thoughts and feelings about some women's wardrobe choices.

And everyone who read what he said is free to agree or disagree with his opinion.  He is not requiring anyone to accept his opinion.  He's just putting it out there for people to read and consider.  In America we are free to share what we think.

 

14 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Maybe we should require men wear sloppy oversized sweats and/or a male burqa. 

I will change my words. Maybe we should encourage men to dress less provocatively at church.

[bluebell]

26 minutes ago, James 1 5 said:

I will say that a woman's wardrobe choice can make her more enticing to me, though.  I would never consider raping a woman, regardless of what she wears or does not wear.  But I have noticed how some wardrobe choices make women attractive to men.

Thank you for retracting that statement.

Have you considered that your wardrobe choices also make you more enticing to women?

How would you feel if women put in a concerted effort to make men who show their forearms believe they were being immodest because of how the women react to it?  (These meme exists in multiple forms because it's true for so many women).

[James 1 5]

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

 

I will change my words. Maybe we should encourage men to dress less provocatively at church.

It's futile.  My wife says I am attractive and enticing to her regardless of what I wear.  And I like how I am.  But you can still share your opinion regardless of what you think for as long as you want to.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

35 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Why is it only women speaking out against this horrible stuff on here?  I'm really hoping they are all just having dinner right now.

Maybe it’s because the church teaches stuff like this:

Quote

Women particularly can dress modestly and in the process contribute to their own self-respect and to the moral purity of men. In the end, most women get the type of man they dress for.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2014/03/the-lords-standard-of-morality?lang=eng
 

Definitely one of my biggest issues with the church. 

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Maybe it’s because the church teaches stuff like this:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2014/03/the-lords-standard-of-morality?lang=eng
 

Definitely one of my biggest issues with the church. 

I'm glad that this article is from 8 years ago.  In my experience things are changing for the better.  

But there are a lot of male posters on this board that don't agree with the church on this issue, right?  

(And thanks ttribe, for being willing to be vocal).

[James 1 5]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Thank you for retracting that statement.

Have you considered that your wardrobe choices also make you more enticing to women?

How would you feel if women put in a concerted effort to make men who show their forearms believe they were being immodest because of how the women react to it?  (These meme exists in multiple forms because it's true for so many women).

Are a man's forearms comparable to a woman's cleavage, ya think?  Or can a man's chest be as provocative as a woman's? Maybe women should let men know they would rather see them keep their shirts buttoned up, when in public.

Feel free to share whatever you think.

Edited February 11, 2022 by James 1 5

[bluebell]

Just now, James 1 5 said:

Are a man's forearms comparable to a woman's cleavage, ya think?  Or can a man's chest be as provocative as a woman's? Maybe women should let men know they would rather see them keep their shirts buttoned up. Feel free to share whatever you think.

We aren't talking about sharing what we think though.   We are talking about what is often taught to our youth in church by people in authority.  And yes, I do think that men's chests and arms can be just as provocative to women as cleavage and legs (and apparently shoulders) are to men.  But the modesty that we have been taught at church over the years caters to men's perspectives and men's needs, so men often have no idea what women think about their bodies.

[bsjkki]

6 minutes ago, James 1 5 said:

It's futile.  My wife says I am attractive and enticing to her regardless of what I wear.  And I like how I am.  But you can still share your opinion regardless of what you think for as long as you want to.

That is the crux of the matter. There is no way for women/girls to cover up enough to not be attractive to men. This is usually when these discussions end. IMO, men try to control the way women dress because they are attracted to women and know they need to control their own thoughts and actions but think it may be easier to control women instead. 

[bsjkki]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

We aren't talking about sharing what we think though.   We are talking about what is often taught to our youth in church by people in authority.  And yes, I do think that men's chests and arms can be just as provocative to women as cleavage and legs (and apparently shoulders) are to men.  But the modesty that we have been taught at church over the years caters to men's perspectives and men's needs, so men often have no idea what women think about their bodies.

Out of likes. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm glad that this article is from 8 years ago.  In my experience things are changing for the better.  

But there are a lot of male posters on this board that don't agree with the church on this issue, right?  

(And thanks ttribe, for being willing to be vocal).

I find the whole thing very vile, but am trying not to engage with certain posters to prevent thread bans. Perhaps that doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. The ideas espoused by the Pastor are a load of horse sh*t. Same for the ideas that clothing influences rape. My wife has been groped and assaulted on separate occasions and in neither case could she have been said to be close to “immodest” dress. Men are responsible for their own thoughts and actions full stop period. No need to discuss further. 

[bsjkki]

Just now, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I find the whole thing very vile, but am trying not to engage with certain posters to prevent thread bans. Perhaps that doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. The ideas espoused by the Pastor are a load of horse sh*t. Same for the ideas that clothing influences rape. My wife has been groped and assaulted on separate occasions and in neither case could she have been said to be close to “immodest” dress. Men are responsible for their own thoughts and actions full stop period. No need to discuss further. 

[James 1 5]

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

That is the crux of the matter. There is no way for women/girls to cover up enough to not be attractive to men. This is usually when these discussions end. IMO, men try to control the way women dress because they are attracted to women and know they need to control their own thoughts and actions but think it may be easier to control women instead. 

I think the issue is very complex.  Women want to be attractive for men, and men want to be attractive for women, and sometimes one doesn't know or realize they can go over the top in public.  Consider a teenage YW who is just naturally very attractive regardless of what she wears, whether modest or immodest.  Now imagine her Dad seeing her in cut-off jeans and a low-cut T-shirt, just being herself, natural, innocent, wanting to be attractive to boys her age with the Dad then saying something like"

Whoa there, daughter!  That is a bit too much (meaning it isn't enough clothing) and then "advising" her that she should consider wearing something else, something more modest, and less revealing.

And then what?  Does his daughter take his "advice" or does she try to shut him down, ridiculing him or his morals or intent?  The Dad is a man who was once a YM and he knows better than her about how YM will find her attractive.  And what does the Mom say?  Does she agree with her husband's "advice" or does she try to shut her husband down, too, giving him the impression that he should just keep his opinion to himself?

 

[Nofear]

48 minutes ago, James 1 5 said:

I will say that a woman's wardrobe choice can make her more enticing to me, though.

While it can certainly be unconscious, many women do try to be more attractive when they are ovulating or when they are seeking social status (e.g. job promotion).

One example study. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18719219/