Resigning from the church

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Wait, I do think he was speaking about himself. Here's a c/p of his post, @Navidad please correct if wrong:

Notice the last section:

Quote

For the Fundamentalist, those kinds of things are the works that make someone orthodox, in addition to checking off all the right orthodox belief boxes. 

We already know that Navidad willingly attends an LDS service.  That is definitely cooperation of a type the person he is describing wouldn’t be doing. He is basically saying as I read him ‘if I were a Fundamentalist, this is what I would be doing.  I would…’.   He is putting himself in the shoes of a Fundamentalist as he sees them. 
 

Hopefully he will see this and clarify 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Calm

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Oh goodness, I'll reread and edit. Thanks Calm, it's been an off day.

Wait, I do think he was speaking about himself. Here's a c/p of his post, @Navidad please correct if wrong:

At other times it is for them, the issue of the works that I do. I witness. I go to the corner to argue with Mormons. I contend for the faith as I know it to be. I defend the scriptures. I debate. I practice secondary separation. I not only don't drink alcohol, I don't go to restaurants that serve it. I don't just not go to movies, I don't associate with folks who do. I don't just dance, I don't go to a Halloween party if anyone there is square dancing. I don't just not smoke, I don't associate with people who do. I don't register for Little League if they have registration at a local theater where they show movie highlights of the previous world series. I don't cooperate with Evangelicals, who cooperate with United Methodists, who cooperate with Catholics, who cooperate with Mormons who have inter-faith efforts with Buddhists. And on and on. For the Fundamentalist, those kinds of things are the works that make someone orthodox, in addition to checking off all the right orthodox belief boxes.  Thanks and best wishes.

Calm is absolutely right. I was not speaking of myself, but of Fundamentalists in general. I could have said "they," but i was speaking from the Fundamentalist perspective, hence the use of "I". Sorry for confusing you. These things are not me! As Calm said, I was putting myself in their shoes.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Navidad

[Kenngo1969]

On 1/25/2022 at 5:22 AM, Mike Drop said:

Unlike Christians, Mormons have two Devine relationships, first, the relationship with the church itself (the priesthood) along with all it’s legalese, the stuff that actually gets you into heaven, and secondly our relationship with Christ. Look at it this way! Mormons find great comfort in being under contract with the church. The church says, eat and drink this, don’t eat and drink that, say these words, don’t say those words, wear this underwear, don’t wear that underwear,   Etc, etc! The contracts (covenants) we make with the church are what make our church unique.We are a work based church. The more faithful we are to the contract we are bound by, the more likely we are to get into VIP heaven, the only heaven that matters!

 

This is exactly backward and totally foreign from the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as I understand it.  (And no, I'm not saying that I'm perfect in putting any of this into practice: Far from it.)  To me, nothing is secondary to my relationship with Christ.  The only reason why any of the other stuff, the stuff you claim is primary, exists is to facilitate my relationship with Christ.

On 1/25/2022 at 5:22 AM, Mike Drop said:

 

   The more orthodox the Mormon, the more important the contract is and the less important our relationship with Christ is? Orthodox Mormons rely heavily on the contract. Garments become really important, so does language, what foods you do/don’t consume, church attendance is extremely important, temple attendance, callings are important, and much much more. The more orthodox you become, the more you start thinking life is about you being in a big arena, and all your dead relatives are watching you from above,  so it’s YOUR job to be on YOUR best behavior so they don’t see YOU sin. You see, in Mormonism, perfection is attainable and the Mormon is the one who controls the outcome, Christ is there for moral support. That’s the biggest pitfall in the Mormon church! It’s really really easy to lose focus and forget about Christ.  
 

So that’s why members “legally” remove their name from church records. It’s to null and void the contract made with the church. 

No, Christ isn't just a "moral support."  He is the only One who makes salvation possible.  Why works, then?  If a person isn't "working" his or her way into Heaven, then what is he or she doing?  What I do is important only insofar as it shows God what I want and how badly I want it, not because the works of themselves merit anything.

[Kenngo1969]

6 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

... And nobody has accused me of outright heresy (that I can recall), so there's that.  ...

Heretic!

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Calm is absolutely right. I was not speaking of myself, but of Fundamentalists in general. I could have said "they," but i was speaking from the Fundamentalist perspective, hence the use of "I". Sorry for confusing you. These things are not me! As Calm said, I was putting myself in their shoes.

 

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Notice the last section:

We already know that Navidad willingly attends an LDS service.  That is definitely cooperation of a type the person he is describing wouldn’t be doing. He is basically saying as I read him ‘if I were a Fundamentalist, this is what I would be doing.  I would…’.   He is putting himself in the shoes of a Fundamentalist as he sees them. 
 

Hopefully he will see this and clarify 

Thank you both of you. Relieved that Navidad isn't fundamentalist like that. 

[Navidad]

Hello my Orthodox friend. When I lived in San Diego I attended an Antiochan Orthodox church for a short time. I am first a Christian, second an Evangelical, and third a Mennonite. When there is no Mennonite church near where I live I will happily attend a church of a different group in order to fellowship, worship, and learn. BTW, if I had wanted to join the Orthodox church, they would not have required me to be re-baptized. I would have had to go to an adult catechism to learn how things work in the Orthodox framework. I couldn't understand much of what was being said, but some kind folks translated for me. I enjoyed my time there.

I have attended, for the same reason and a few others the local LDS church here in Mexico with my wife for a little over four years. My extensive study of LDS history, my time in the ward (church), my time individually with many LDS individuals has led me to believe that, from my orthodox (small o) Evangelical perspective, they are as much Christians as I am and will be with me in heaven with the Father and Christ. On the other hand, they believe I am a Christian, but an incomplete Christian. If I bring my faith to the LDS folks, they will enjoy and accept my faith, but consider it incomplete. They will then offer to add from their truth to mine. To be fair, I have also had them on a few occasions indicate that my wife and I have added to their faith. That is nice when that happens. Our ward (church) has allowed us to minister in some very rewarding ways.

There are many non-LDS Christians who do not believe that the LDS are Christians in any form or shape. I disagree with them. LDS folks are not Trinitarian. Some churches exclude them from faith because of that. I don't because I never once in all my years of ministry as an Evangelical asked a baptismal candidate to declare his faith in the Trinity before I would baptize him (acknowledging that the Mennonite and Baptist baptisms are not for salvific purposes). So it would be hypocritical of me to demand that an LDS -Christian affirm the trinity before I would consider her a Christian. Here is the big stumbling block for me . . . While my LDS friends believe that I am a Christian they do not believe that I will live for eternity with the Father and Son in what they believe to be the highest level of heaven unless I accept LDS baptism and other ordinances in either this life or the next. Just like some early Orthodox believers, they practice proxy baptism for the dead. Their belief is that my baptism as a 7 year old by immersion by my father was not a truly valid baptism because my father was not an LDS priesthood holder, who are the only ones on earth who hold the authority to baptize with authority. Also my baptism was not for salvation or entrance into a church. So, while I am a Christian, I lack their covenants, ordinances and family sealings. The covenants and ordinances of my faith are not valid in their thinking; neither are the covenants and ordinances of your faith. Only LDS baptism starts the process of salvation (really exaltation) and indwelling of the Holy Spirit in its fullness in a person's life. I have the light of Christ in my life, but not the fullness of the Holy Spirit (He may come and go) because I have not experienced confirmation at the hands (literally) of LDS priests. My destiny as I am right now is most likely that I will spend eternity in one of two lesser levels of a heavenly kingdom in the absence of the Father and Son who dwell in the highest or celestial level. There are some LDS who believe I might make it to the celestial level, but my experience is that they are few and far in between.

I say all this to help you understand from a fairly neutral person. I probably have not explained things well and overly simplistically, but that is because the LDS faith is very complex. It is far better to have an LDS believer tell you what they believe, but as you have seen in the first several pages of this thread, that can be complicated as well. In now way am I speaking for any faithful LDS person on this forum. I am sharing my own limited understanding of their faith in a way that might be understandable to a non-LDS person. Many in the LDS church will tell you it is more organized around orthopraxy than orthodoxy. My upbringing was the opposite. There is good however in both orthodoxy and orthopraxy. The best is probably to strive for both (in my opinion). I believe in a wideness in God's mercy that perfectly balances His righteousness. I believe that will cause Christ to be merciful to far more people at judgment day than any of us might realize.

I am not a member of the LDS church and I admire and appreciate their commitment to the atonement of Jesus Christ as a critical and major component of ones salvation and exaltation (sometimes they are lumped together as complete or full salvation). Sometimes words get in the way and language is a barrier, but I am convinced after knowing many of the folks and a few of their general authorities that they are every bit as much Christian, bound for eternal life with Christ and the Father as I am, and of course some, more so. Sometimes I sigh and wish they believed the same about me (just as I am right now), but that will probably never be the case. Their hope and fervent belief for me is that still in this life, or in the next I will accept their proxy baptismal and other proxy work for me and will then be able to join those of them who also go to live with Christ and the Father. You see they don't believe that all LDS folks will get to the highest level of heaven either. It is complicated! Be of good faith! There are many here who will delight in helping you understand them. Be patient. It may take a while! I have quit this forum at least five times in four years, but I keep coming back. There are some really fine people here. One last time, I am not the one to explain the depth and nature of the LDS faith to you. I speak for no one on this forum, but myself and that to the best of my limited ability. Best wishes.

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Only LDS baptism starts the process of salvation (really exaltation) and indwelling of the Holy Spirit in its fullness in a person's life.

I think you are missing a few steps…easiest to describe with the AoF 4

The start is “Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”.  Second, “repentance”….then comes baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng

However, baptism is talked about as the first step of membership in the Lord’s Church among other things.

added:

Quote

Sometimes I sigh and wish they believed the same about me (just as I am right now), but that will probably never be the case. … You see they don't believe that all LDS folks will get to the highest level of heaven either.

I think it is safe to say that none of us as we are right now would fit into the Celestial Kingdom.  God’s sanctification of us is not accomplished in mortality, but continues after death.

For example:

Quote

“When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.”

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-22?

And who is to say whether you, Navidad, will not progress more smoothly and quicker (if time works there as it does here) than most Saints if we are too often convinced we known most of the essentials already when the above makes it clear we don’t.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Calm

[Navidad]

13 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 

Thank you both of you. Relieved that Navidad isn't fundamentalist like that. 

This is why I think it is very important to differentiate between Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, and Mainliners, whether they be Protestants, Anabaptists, Pentecostals, Apostolics, Orthodox, or Roman Catholic. I am beginning to despair that my LDS friends will never agree with me that the distinctions are real and really important. Oh well, I will simply keep trying. Wait, or maybe I could just start insisting that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Community of Christ, and the many fundamentalist Mormon groups are all the same too - no need to differentiate between them either! Ha! Wouldn't that get me in a lot of trouble!?🙃

Edited January 27, 2022 by Navidad

[Calm]

49 minutes ago, Navidad said:

There are some LDS who believe I might make it to the celestial level, but my experience is that they are few and far in between.

Have they actually said that or are you assuming based on our teachings members believe that unless they say otherwise (because it is a very understandable interpretation of our doctrine IMO, but not the correct one, also imo)?
 

That would be strange to me if the majority of Saints see you as nonCelestial material so to speak because I would assume most would see you as a sincere seeker of God and so even if you weren’t convinced in this life, that when given instruction in the next life where the spiritual witness was clear (and it will be much clearer I believe in our next stage of life) and not confused by either your own assumptions or the unnecessary baggage members of the Church have attached to God’s teachings that may obscure the necessary truths, you would as eagerly accept the truth there as you appear (to me at least) to eagerly accept the truth when you understand it to be truth here in mortality.

see above post for addition…debated where to add it.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I am beginning to despair that my LDS friends will never agree with me that the distinctions are real and really important.

I think our experience with being denied the identity of Christian way too often has led us as a group to be reluctant not to accept the label that people choose for themselves…at least religiously speaking.  I personally believe actual beliefs and distinctions of doctrine and practice are very important, but tend to be more fluid on what labels get attached…I would probably choose Fundamentalist Evangelical and Mainstream Evangelical in conversation with someone who didn’t use the same categories as you do, so as to note the important differences but also be able to use the labeling that in my experience Fundamentalists have chosen to use for themselves. (Not claiming all Fundamentalists label themselves Evangelical even if they also describe themselves as Fundamentalists, but based on my experience it is currently reasonable to assume a large amount do, maybe even a majority).****

In some other areas, not so relaxed.

My experience is also many Saints don’t feel the need to examine others’ faith, which is very unfortunate but understandable when one’s own life is more than full of already good things as well as a hefty dose of struggles that all mortals seem to accumulate automatically.  So I would agree there is a substantial part of the membership that don’t see distinctions among nonLDS Christians as important…but I don’t see why they wouldn’t see them as real.  That part I don’t understand in your comment very well.  I don’t see any member saying there are no real differences between Catholics and Protestants even if they had the view of the differences as unimportant.

****Wikipedia for example has this: “The broader term "evangelical" includes fundamentalists as well as people with similar or identical religious beliefs who do not engage the outside challenge to the Bible as actively”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_fundamentalism

Edited January 27, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

Also:

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/evangelicals/vs.html
 

Quote

People often get confused between the terms evangelical and fundamentalist. They mean two different things. Evangelicals are a very broad group. It's probably a third or 40 percent of the population of the United States. Fundamentalists are a subset of that…

And you tend to think of evangelicals as being fundamentalists because the most well known evangelicals are people like Jerry Falwell who are fundamentalists and are very conservative. But in fact, the evangelicals who are part of Bush's inner circle are not all fundamentalists. They are often very devout evangelicals. But their approach to politics is much more nuanced than the fundamentalist approach. …

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Calm

[Orthodox Christian]

10 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I've always thought we were more like Catholicism and Orthodoxy in some of our basic doctrines than anything in Protestantism.  But we do have some big differences.  

I'm curious about what are some of the things that are the big shockers for you, if you are willing to share them? 

Since I have been here and reading various threads etc I've picked up on several things that would never convert me to your faith. And someone quipped on one of these threads that that is the reason inquirer never hear about them before joining. Things like polygamy and polyandry. Plural marriage after death, eternal procreation, exaltation to be gods and goddesses if a female can find a male after death upon whom her celestial glory depends.

The untruth that the Church was lost after the apostles, as if Christ came and sacrificed all and to build His Church for us, then to allow it to be lost, even though He pledged that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. The Church remained through the working of the Holy Spirit and the Apostles ordained successors with their authority to continue as they have. The Church did not need to be restored, it is Apostolic, the Apostles being the foundation with our Lord and Saviour as its conerstone. He did not abandon it to be lost, He built it to remain to the end of the age so that through it He would continue to be a light to the world. The Holy Spirit that the Lord breathed into the Apostles after His resurrection, and then descended in His full power at Pentecost upon the Apostles and the Mother of God didn't just hang around for a few years until all the Apostles were dead, then He took off. That is simply not true. 

I also found elsewhere something called the Adam God theory where Adam is supposed to be God and he is said to have had a sexual relationship with Mary who I believe was said to be Eve. This was said to have been proposed by Brigham Young. 

So there you are, and I am sure there is more if I just keep reading what is here on this board I will find more that will make me shake my head in disbelief. 

[Orthodox Christian]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

I think it would help quite a bit in our communication as Latter-day Saints if we realized that some of our doctrine appears to be blasphemy to others.  There are valid reasons why some Christians choose not to pray with us because they don’t want to give the appearance that the differences in beliefs don’t matter.  It is concern for people’s immortal souls which they see as being possibly damned by some of the beliefs we hold. 
 

We shouldn’t be ashamed or try to hide our doctrine, but we do need to better learn the language and assumptions of others’ faith and understanding.  We don’t need to create unnecessary obstacles, but we shouldn’t be blind to ones actually there. And we really need to realize what we are asking people to give up when we invite them to come join our faith.   I have had the experience of members who assume because we say bring what is good in your lives and let us add [more good] to it, this means the converted don’t have to leave behind anything that they have valued in their lives.  But that is often not true. At the very least, conversion means major changes in their relationships for many.  For others it means giving up beloved forms of community worship. There are great sacrifices often made when someone accepts baptism in our faith. 
 

But if we do have the truth as we see it, those sacrifices are worth all that is asked and much more. 

I would say that the Truth isn't as we see it, that's why there are so many different brands of Christianity. The Truth is Christ, He is the Way, the gate of the sheepfold and  He is found in the pages of Scripture. I believe that the Orthodox Church has preserved Him as Truth since Pentecost. The Church was never lost, if it was, Christ failed or at least broke his pledge that it would be here till the end of the age and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. But He built His Church to last till he returns. 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Orthodox Christian

[Orthodox Christian]

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Since I have been here and reading various threads etc I've picked up on several things that would never convert me to your faith. And someone quipped on one of these threads that that is the reason inquirer never hear about them before joining. Things like polygamy and polyandry. Plural marriage after death, eternal procreation, exaltation to be gods and goddesses if a female can find a male after death upon whom her celestial glory depends.

The untruth that the Church was lost after the apostles, as if Christ came and sacrificed all and to build His Church for us, then to allow it to be lost, even though He pledged that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. The Church remained through the working of the Holy Spirit and the Apostles ordained successors with their authority to continue as they have. The Church did not need to be restored, it is Apostolic, the Apostles being the foundation with our Lord and Saviour as its conerstone. He did not abandon it to be lost, He built it to remain to the end of the age so that through it He would continue to be a light to the world. The Holy Spirit that the Lord breathed into the Apostles after His resurrection, and then descended in His full power at Pentecost upon the Apostles and the Mother of God didn't just hang around for a few years until all the Apostles were dead, then He took off. That is simply not true. 

I also found elsewhere something called the Adam God theory where Adam is supposed to be God and he is said to have had a sexual relationship with Mary who I believe was said to be Eve. This was said to have been proposed by Brigham Young. 

So there you are, and I am sure there is more if I just keep reading what is here on this board I will find more that will make me shake my head in disbelief. 

Sorry if I offended someone, as demonstrated in the down vote. I posted this in answer to a question from InCognitus. I didn't post it to be contentious or contraversial.

[Orthodox Christian]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

I think you are missing a few steps…easiest to describe with the AoF 4

The start is “Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”.  Second, “repentance”….then comes baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng

However, baptism is talked about as the first step of membership in the Lord’s Church among other things.

added:

I think it is safe to say that none of us as we are right now would fit into the Celestial Kingdom.  God’s sanctification of us is not accomplished in mortality, but continues after death.

For example:

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-22?

And who is to say whether you, Navidad, will not progress more smoothly and quicker (if time works there as it does here) than most Saints if we are too often convinced we known most of the essentials already when the above makes it clear we don’t.

Why do you talk about time? Eternity has no time, it is eternal. Time refers to our earthly existence when God divided day and night He created time, which we believe we have to sanctify by our lives. God is eternal, He lives outside of time, He is the beginning and the end and is at the beginning and the end, in fact God is eternity. So I don't understand how time fits.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

So I don't understand how time fits.

Do you believe there is any change in Heaven, such as when someone dies, now sanctified and they go to heaven?

If heaven is unchanging, then how does anyone manage to go there after death sanctified or not?  Serious question, trying to understand your viewpoint not debate.

If heaven does change, then isn’t that passage of time in some form?

What is being outside of time like in your view?

Edited January 27, 2022 by Calm

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

I would say that the Truth isn't as we see it, that's why there are so many different brands of Christianity. The Truth is Christ, He is the Way, the gate of the sheepfold and  He is found in the pages of Scripture. I believe that the Orthodox Church has preserved Him as Truth since Pentecost. The Church was never lost, if it was, Christ failed or at least broke his pledge that it would be here till the end of the age and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. But He built His Church to last till he returns. 

Well said! I am not 100% certain you would agree, but when you say "He built His Church" I interpret that to mean the world-wide community of Christ known as "the church." Various denominations and groups, different nuances and emphases, but one in Christ and His atonement. Is that "His Church" you were thinking of, or were you referring specifically to the Orthodox Church in its various forms?

I also would encourage you not to be concerned about every concept or idea that was ever suggested in speech or in writing by a LDS leader. There were many doctrines suggested over time that are not and never were considered part of the LDS Church doctrine. There have been outlier beliefs in every group.

I recall the interesting story of an Apostolic Orthodox priest who if I remember right was Canadian. He gathered followers and bought 40,000 acres here in Chihuahua around 1910 to establish a colony of "truly Apostolic Christians. The colony failed for a variety of reasons, including the Mexican revolution. I am not sure all of his beliefs were orthodox Orthodox beliefs. Every faith has some of them in their midst at some time.

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Sorry if I offended someone, as demonstrated in the down vote. I posted this in answer to a question from InCognitus. I didn't post it to be contentious or contraversial.

I think the down vote was probably because you claimed we have beliefs that we don’t actually have, or you don’t understand them well enough to describe them accurately.

[Orthodox Christian]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Do you believe there is any change in Heaven, such as when someone dies, now sanctified and they go to heaven?

If heaven is unchanging, then how does anyone manage to go there after death sanctified or not?  Serious question, trying to understand your viewpoint not debate.

If heaven does change, then isn’t that passage of time in some form?

What is being outside of time like in your view?

Hi Calm, to us God is eternal, immutable and ineffable. He is everywhere present and fills all things, he fills all the earth and the heavens  what does the Psalm say, if I go up to heaven you are there, if I go down into Sheol you are there. In fact to us He is heaven and eternity, when we are unified with Him He is all in all, and we will be with him to worship Him in Glory. There is no doing, but there is perfectly being in God through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and time no longer exists because we are eternally joined to him. As Orthodox we don't analyse God, or try to understand Him, that's like the pot trying to understand the Potter. We don't try to put Him in a box and tie up loose ends we worship Him. That is our way here on earth, to worship the Almighty and that continues when we are with Him after our earthly life. That is our understanding that has come down to us from the Scriptures and the Fathers and the Church. 

[Orthodox Christian]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think the down vote was probably because you claimed we have beliefs that we don’t actually have, or you don’t understand them well enough to describe them accurately.

But what I quoted about God's, goddesses, plural marriage etc came from this board. The Adam God thing didn't, I had to sit down after that one, so if it wasn't a doctrine of your church, I am glad. So was it an outright lie, I believe there were references etc. 

[Navidad]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

Have they actually said that or are you assuming based on our teachings members believe that unless they say otherwise (because it is a very understandable interpretation of our doctrine IMO, but not the correct one, also imo)?
 

That would be strange to me if the majority of Saints see you as nonCelestial material so to speak because I would assume most would see you as a sincere seeker of God and so even if you weren’t convinced in this life, that when given instruction in the next life where the spiritual witness was clear (and it will be much clearer I believe in our next stage of life) and not confused by either your own assumptions or the unnecessary baggage members of the Church have attached to God’s teachings that may obscure the necessary truths, you would as eagerly accept the truth there as you appear (to me at least) to eagerly accept the truth when you understand it to be truth here in mortality.

see above post for addition…debated where to add it.

Hi Calm, thanks for your comment. Whenever I have spoken with a Saint about this issue and whenever I have posted about it here, I have tried to emphasize that I am speaking or asking in the context of the "just as I am." I am not a big fan of the belief that there will be missionaries in the spirit world, or that if there are, there will be only LDS missionaries there. I also can't get my head around the idea that Christ on that great judgment day is going to have a list, or ask us each about our relationship with the LDS church and/or its ordinances as part of our accounting for our lives.

I have asked about that numerous times here, but have never received a direct answer. I can see Him asking me how I reflected His love and concern wherever I was placed and in whatever religious institution I aligned myself with, but I cannot and I guess do not believe that He will only ask all of humanity who lived from 1830 on only or even specifically about their relationship to the LDS church. That is a bridge too far for me. Hence, my interest is my situation in the mind of the faithful member of the Church as I am right now. I have never responded to a suggestion that I will have a chance in the afterlife to rectify my error here in this life because while I hesitate to speak of LDS beliefs I just can't get my head around, that idea of post-death change of mind and heart at the hands of a dead LDS missionary is one of them.

Without belaboring my disagreement on the missionaries in the spirit world situation, I hope that helps. I am 72 years old. I believe I have already set the tone in my life for my interview with the Savior at judgment day. Good and bad. I believe (without certainty of course) that when I walk up He will see Himself in me and his shed blood covering me as it did the portals above the Hebrew's Egyptian doors. There most assuredly will be other things that I will be ashamed of, but not having to do with the LDS church. Thanks for setting such a positive tone in these difficult conversations.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

But what I quoted about God's, goddesses, plural marriage etc came from this board. The Adam God thing didn't, I had to sit down after that one, so if it wasn't a doctrine of your church, I am glad. So was it an outright lie, I believe there were references etc. 

Sorry if I was confusing.  I didn't mean that there were any outright lies.  Only that our doctrine is usually fairly nuanced and if you don't understand the nuances then it's hard to relate the doctrine accurately (even if you don't agree with it, we mostly care that it's expressed accurately).

For example, you said "....exaltation to be gods and goddesses if a female can find a male after death upon whom her celestial glory depends."

We do believe that becoming joint-heirs with Christ means becoming like Christ (because that's what heirs do and are), but we believe that that means becoming gods and goddesses through Christ's atonement.  The small g in those words is important, because we believe we will forever be subordinate to the Father and the Son, never equal to them in our relationship.

We do believe that that can only happen as a couple, for those who are sealed by the authority of God.  As the scriptures say, "Neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord".  So men and women's celestial glory depend on each other.  Neither can receive all that the Father hath without the other.  The idea that women are dependant upon men, but men are not equally dependent upon women, is false.

It's also false to imply that anyone will be denied any blessing through no fault of their own.  We believe that all who seek to be sealed to a spouse, who have lived worthy of that blessing, will gain it, if not in this life then in the life afterward.

Hope that helps clarify some things a little.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

But what I quoted about God's, goddesses, plural marriage etc came from this board. The Adam God thing didn't, I had to sit down after that one, so if it wasn't a doctrine of your church, I am glad. So was it an outright lie, I believe there were references etc. 

As for the Adam-God theory, here is what one of our prophets and presidents of the church, Spencer W. Kimball, had to say about it decades ago:

Another matter. We hope that you who teach in the various organizations, whether on the campuses or in our chapels, will always teach the orthodox truth. We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.

[latterdaytemplar]

On 1/24/2022 at 10:48 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

https://qr.ae/pGBwQO

Excellent link. Although, I'm kind of biased; the writer is my uncle. 😃

Edited January 27, 2022 by latterdaytemplar

[InCognitus]

9 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

So there you are, and I am sure there is more if I just keep reading what is here on this board I will find more that will make me shake my head in disbelief

I wish I had more time to respond to your post, but at the very least I wanted to thank you for it and I really appreciate your candid answer.  And I echo the response given by Bluebell, that sometimes what we actually teach as a Church isn't the same as how it is portrayed by others outside our church, and even by some inside the church. 

I've had enough experience in talking to people of other faiths where a particular belief they hold may sound totally bizarre and completely contradictory to my understanding of the Bible until I try to understand how they see their belief and how they think it fits in with scripture.  After I understand them a little better I may still disagree with them (or sometimes I may actually agree), but I might also gain some insight into the nuances of scripture that I didn't recognize previously, and I may also gain a little more respect for them and their position in the process (i.e. it's not as crazy as it sounds on the surface).

This kind of thing happened in the New Testament and in early Christianity as well.  A perfect example of it is in John chapter 6, where Jesus teaches his followers that they need to be eating his flesh and blood in order to have eternal life.  To an outsider who has no understanding of the doctrine, such a teaching would sound really really strange, and of course that's why some of his disciples were offended and left him.  And this doctrine also became the target of a lot of misrepresentation and persecution against Christians in early Christianity (they were accused of being cannibals and a lot of other bad things).   But for those who understand the doctrine it is both meaningful and fulfilling. 

I may be able to say something more later, but for now I'd like to touch on two things you mentioned in your post:

1. The apostasy:  I completely understand why this teaching is a problem to your point of view.  We see prophecies and warnings in the New Testament from Jesus and the apostles about the impending apostasy.  But the apostasy is complex.  We don't believe that the Holy Spirit completely ceased to work among men, and it certainly continued in many individuals.  The apostasy consisted of a loss of authority and the organization established by Jesus of the twelve apostles to lead the church, and a loss of or confusion about some truths.  The apostasy didn't happen over night, it happened gradually, and the teachings of the earliest Christians would be considered closer to what Jesus and the apostles taught than some of the things that were introduced into Christianity later on.  We believe the restoration brought back the authority and the leadership organization of the church, and the keys to administer the ordinances, as well as reestablishing the revelatory connection between God and the leadership.  This is also why we don't believe in a closed canon of scripture, because God still does today what he has done in the past with his church.  

2. Exaltation to be gods and goddesses:  It's interesting that you would mention this, because this is one of the teachings where I felt like we had something in common.  In the few conversations I've had with people of the Orthodox faith, I thought there were similar ideas expressed in the doctrines of Deification or Theosis.  And the teaching that men can become gods was a very common teaching in early Christian writing.  I just noticed that this Wikipedia article has a good synopsis of Christian Divinization.  I'm interested to know how you think those teachings are similar or different to our view.

Thanks again for your response.  Hopefully I'll have more time to talk later.