Resigning from the church

[Orthodox Christian]

1 minute ago, Orthodox Christian said:

What is trolling? I know, I'm a bit of a dinosaur

I have googled trolling, so am now enlightened

[Orthodox Christian]

I need to assimilate all of this, I find it unsettling, and confusing. Thankyou for all of your responses.

[bsjkki]

5 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

I need to assimilate all of this, I find it unsettling, and confusing. Thankyou for all of your responses.

This discussion is continuing in a new thread in general discussions. 

 

[Orthodox Christian]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

This discussion is continuing in a new thread in general discussions. 

 

Thank you, but I'm not sure I can cope with it.

[Tacenda]

20 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Thank you, but I'm not sure I can cope with it.

I'm not that great for giving deep doctrine answers, but would like to know what it is you aren't feeling you're able to cope with. If you want to share.

[bluebell]

7 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

I need to assimilate all of this, I find it unsettling, and confusing. Thankyou for all of your responses.

The first rule of understanding anything about "mormonism" is that the members don't all agree on everything.  So you have to differentiate between what the church teaches and what members believe.  

It can be unsettling and annoying, but it is as much a part of our religion as is our belief in the divinity of Christ.

When someone tries to teach that their personal interpretation of a belief or doctrine is what all members of the Church or Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe--or what the church teaches--then that's when you get squabbles among members.

  

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Thank you, but I'm not sure I can cope with it.

Is it the disagreements or doctrinal issues? Sometimes things can get a bit contentious. I understand the need for a break or to process.

[Olmec Donald]

8 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

I need to assimilate all of this, I find it unsettling, and confusing. Thankyou for all of your responses.

I don't blame you.

I'm guessing this part of what you find disturbing: 

"... for they were all wrong, and the person to who address me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight, but those professors were all corrupt, that, they drew near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they denied the power there of."

My understanding is that the word "creeds" means "formal beliefs that cannot be changed or modified".  It can also mean "religions", but I think the first definition is what fits, and here's why:  If God wishes to speak to his people, BUT their formal beliefs - creeds - essentially FORBID anyone to believe that he can do so, then those creeds are the bottleneck.  If a creed says that God stopped giving public revelation when the last original apostle died and/or the last book of the New Testament was finished, such that anyone claiming God spoke to them is likely to be treated as a heretic or worse, well that's a bottleneck imposed by the leaders of the religion.

Regarding the harsh language I'm not comfortable with it either, but then neither am I comfortable with Jesus saying "I came not to bring peace, but a sword."  

These particular words are interesting:  "they drew near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me".  Isaiah used similar language in Chapter 29.  In fact Isaiah Chapter 29 is interpreted by Mormonism as a prophecy of the "restoration".  Quoting here verses 10-14, [bolds and inserts mine]:

"For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered, [public revelation has ceased] 

"And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:  And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. [This scene was played out when Joseph Smith asked an expert to look at his translation of a page of the Book of Mormon]

"Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: [so Isaiah prophesied pretty much the same conditions as what Joseph Smith related]

"Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid." [Mormonism interprets this as being about the founding of their religion, and indeed the path of conversion to Mormonism is not an intellectual or scholarly one, but is based on getting a personal answer to a personal prayer.]

For the record, I'm ex-LDS.  

Edited January 26, 2022 by Olmec Donald

[Orthodox Christian]

1 hour ago, Olmec Donald said:

I don't blame you.

I'm guessing this part of what you find disturbing: 

"... for they were all wrong, and the person to who address me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight, but those professors were all corrupt, that, they drew near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they denied the power there of."

My understanding is that the word "creeds" means "formal beliefs that cannot be changed or modified".  It can also mean "religions", but I think the first definition is what fits, and here's why:  If God wishes to speak to his people, BUT their formal beliefs - creeds - essentially FORBID anyone to believe that he can do so, then those creeds are the bottleneck.  If a creed says that God stopped giving public revelation when the last original apostle died and/or the last book of the New Testament was finished, such that anyone claiming God spoke to them is likely to be treated as a heretic or worse, well that's a bottleneck imposed by the leaders of the religion.

Regarding the harsh language I'm not comfortable with it either, but then neither am I comfortable with Jesus saying "I came not to bring peace, but a sword."  

These particular words are interesting:  "they drew near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me".  Isaiah used similar language in Chapter 29.  In fact Isaiah Chapter 29 is interpreted by Mormonism as a prophecy of the "restoration".  Quoting here verses 10-14, [bolds and inserts mine]:

"For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered, [public revelation has ceased] 

"And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:  And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. [This scene was played out when Joseph Smith asked an expert to look at his translation of a page of the Book of Mormon]

"Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: [so Isaiah prophesied pretty much the same conditions as what Joseph Smith related]

"Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid." [Mormonism interprets this as being about the founding of their religion, and indeed the path of conversion to Mormonism is not an intellectual or scholarly one, but is based on getting a personal answer to a personal prayer.]

For the record, I'm ex-LDS.  

Thank you, but scripture through the LDS prism is what I am coming to see bears no resemblance to my faith. And the more I see/read the more I see that we approach things from a totally different POV.

This is a personal question, and obviously you can choose not to answer it, but, are you now involved with another faith tradition? 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Orthodox Christian

[Orthodox Christian]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm not that great for giving deep doctrine answers, but would like to know what it is you aren't feeling you're able to cope with. If you want to share.

Thank you, you've have all been lovely. But I think it is the shock realisation of just how far we are apart doctrinally. In my ignorance, forgive me, I thought you were just another, though somewhat quirky, branch of Protestantism. This I now an beginning to realise is a long way from the truth.

[Orthodox Christian]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

Is it the disagreements or doctrinal issues? Sometimes things can get a bit contentious. I understand the need for a break or to process.

Thank you for your understanding, I do feel quite emotional about it, I didn't realise that there could be such differences in doctrine in the Christian faith. I mean the Orthodox differ from Catholics on certain things, and also obviously from Protestants, but those differences are nothing in comparison.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Orthodox Christian

[Olmec Donald]

2 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

This is a personal question, and obviously you can choose not to answer it, but, are you now involved with another faith tradition? 

No, I'm not affiliated with any group or religion or faith tradition. 

[Orthodox Christian]

8 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

No, I'm not affiliated with any group or religion or faith tradition. 

This really difficult but I want to ask why you left but I realise you can't discuss that here. But instead I will ask if that was a difficult decision and an emotional time for you. Also, if you have left, why do you take part here? I mean, I think there are others who have left and also are here, what keeps you engaging?

[Olmec Donald]

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

But instead I will ask if that was a difficult decision and an emotional time for you.

It was like a divorce.  So yes, it was difficult and emotional.  That was twenty years ago, and the passage of time has helped.

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Also, if you have left, why do you take part here? I mean, I think there are others who have left and also are here, what keeps you engaging?

I'm more fluent in Mormon than in other "languages", so if I want people I can talk with, this site offers that. 

I don't feel at liberty to speak freely about beliefs with family members who are Mormons.  The rules of this site help make it a safe space, but mainly it's the people here who make an effort to maintain a safe space even for those they disagree with.

And nobody has accused me of outright heresy (that I can recall), so there's that.  In my experience many if not most Mormons are far more "live and let live" than the religion's harshest writings would lead you to believe. 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Olmec Donald

[Orthodox Christian]

5 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

It was like a divorce.  So yes, it was difficult and emotional. 

I'm more fluent in Mormon than in other "languages", so if I want people I can talk with, this site offers that. 

I don't feel at liberty to speak freely about beliefs with family members who are Mormons.  The rules of this site help make it a safe space, but mainly it's the people here who make an effort to maintain a safe space even for those they disagree with.

And nobody has accused me of outright heresy (that I can recall), so there's that.  In my experience many if not most Mormons are far more "live and let live" than the religion's harshest writings would lead you to believe. 

 

 

So going by your experience, I suppose it isn't unreasonable to assume that those others on here who have left also went through a difficult time during that process. It must have been very traumatic when your sense of who you are is turned on its head.

[Olmec Donald]

12 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

So going by your experience, I suppose it isn't unreasonable to assume that those others on here who have left also went through a difficult time during that process. It must have been very traumatic when your sense of who you are is turned on its head.

Thank you for your concern

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the emotional impact at the time was far stronger than I had anticipated.  I tried being angry for a while, and did a pretty good job of it, but anger didn't really fill my bucket.  

In retrospect it was an interesting part of my earth-life experience, and if nothing else it freed me up to pursue lines of thinking which were clearly at odds with church doctrine and/or policy.  

Edited January 26, 2022 by Olmec Donald

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Thank you for your understanding, I do feel quite emotional about it, I didn't realise that there could be such differences in doctrine in the Christian faith. I mean the Orthodox differ from Catholics on certain things, and also obviously from Protestants, but those differences are nothing in comparison.

“In a way, we are magicians. We are alchemists, sorcerers and wizards. We are a very strange bunch. But there is great fun in being a wizard.” - Billy Joel

[Orthodox Christian]

18 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

“In a way, we are magicians. We are alchemists, sorcerers and wizards. We are a very strange bunch. But there is great fun in being a wizard.” - Billy Joel

But I get the distinct impression that some on here have not found the alchemy fun. 

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Thank you, you've have all been lovely. But I think it is the shock realisation of just how far we are apart doctrinally. In my ignorance, forgive me, I thought you were just another, though somewhat quirky, branch of Protestantism. This I now an beginning to realise is a long way from the truth.

I've always thought we were more like Catholicism and Orthodoxy in some of our basic doctrines than anything in Protestantism.  But we do have some big differences.  

I'm curious about what are some of the things that are the big shockers for you, if you are willing to share them? 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Olmec Donald said:

It was like a divorce.  So yes, it was difficult and emotional.  That was twenty years ago, and the passage of time has helped.

I'm more fluent in Mormon than in other "languages", so if I want people I can talk with, this site offers that. 

I don't feel at liberty to speak freely about beliefs with family members who are Mormons.  The rules of this site help make it a safe space, but mainly it's the people here who make an effort to maintain a safe space even for those they disagree with.

And nobody has accused me of outright heresy (that I can recall), so there's that.  In my experience many if not most Mormons are far more "live and let live" than the religion's harshest writings would lead you to believe. 

 

 

I can attest to this! I don't want to put down @Navidad But I'd have a difficult time in a faith belief with strict rules of separation from the world as he shared today on the board. I don't know that I could live without my movies, or live without other things he abstains from. But it's his walk not mine.

The COJCOLDS is probably the most unorthodox the more I think about it. There's a lot of freedom of thought, something I didn't think I'd ever say. The church provided such a lovely childhood. Roadshows, plays that the youth would put on, and not always anything to do with church. Girl's/Boy's outdoor camps, weekly youth activities, single adult activities, dances, ward parties, women/men's activities as well, sports like basketball, baseball, volleyball, pickleball (new) etc.

Doctrine doesn't feel nailed down for the most part, current revelation can change with the culture or with the times. The church doesn't believe everything the Bible says, they give it a degree of skepticism because it's not always translated correctly with the passage of time. 

The church encourages apologists to help those that suffer with faith crisis, and have questions. I am inactive as you probably know, but I believe I had a pretty darn good faith belief and I miss the social end a lot, and the service opportunities and the hymns.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Tacenda

[Olmec Donald]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

There's a lot of freedom of thought, something I didn't think I'd ever say.

Yup.  Mormonism might not be the ultimate in freedom of thought, but it definitely excels.  AND imo there is veritable plethora of interesting trains of thought within Mormonism that either have been or can be explored.  

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

But I get the distinct impression that some on here have not found the alchemy fun. 

What is not fun about alchemy? Even when it goes horribly wrong it is still morbidly funny.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'd have a difficult time in a faith belief with strict rules of separation from the world as he shared today on the board. I don't know that I could live without my movies, or live without other things he abstains from. But it's his walk not mine.

Those were not necessarily his beliefs, but how he was explaining how Fundamentalists often approach others and the world. 

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Those were not necessarily his beliefs, but how he was explaining how Fundamentalists often approach others and the world. 

Oh goodness, I'll reread and edit. Thanks Calm, it's been an off day.

Wait, I do think he was speaking about himself. Here's a c/p of his post, @Navidad please correct if wrong:

At other times it is for them, the issue of the works that I do. I witness. I go to the corner to argue with Mormons. I contend for the faith as I know it to be. I defend the scriptures. I debate. I practice secondary separation. I not only don't drink alcohol, I don't go to restaurants that serve it. I don't just not go to movies, I don't associate with folks who do. I don't just dance, I don't go to a Halloween party if anyone there is square dancing. I don't just not smoke, I don't associate with people who do. I don't register for Little League if they have registration at a local theater where they show movie highlights of the previous world series. I don't cooperate with Evangelicals, who cooperate with United Methodists, who cooperate with Catholics, who cooperate with Mormons who have inter-faith efforts with Buddhists. And on and on. For the Fundamentalist, those kinds of things are the works that make someone orthodox, in addition to checking off all the right orthodox belief boxes.  Thanks and best wishes.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Tacenda

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

those differences are nothing in comparison.

I think it would help quite a bit in our communication as Latter-day Saints if we realized that some of our doctrine appears to be blasphemy to others.  There are valid reasons why some Christians choose not to pray with us because they don’t want to give the appearance that the differences in beliefs don’t matter.  It is concern for people’s immortal souls which they see as being possibly damned by some of the beliefs we hold. 
 

We shouldn’t be ashamed or try to hide our doctrine, but we do need to better learn the language and assumptions of others’ faith and understanding.  We don’t need to create unnecessary obstacles, but we shouldn’t be blind to ones actually there. And we really need to realize what we are asking people to give up when we invite them to come join our faith.   I have had the experience of members who assume because we say bring what is good in your lives and let us add [more good] to it, this means the converted don’t have to leave behind anything that they have valued in their lives.  But that is often not true. At the very least, conversion means major changes in their relationships for many.  For others it means giving up beloved forms of community worship. There are great sacrifices often made when someone accepts baptism in our faith. 
 

But if we do have the truth as we see it, those sacrifices are worth all that is asked and much more. 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Calm