Status of the Church 2.0

[MacGyver]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Please provide evidence.

Well for one thing I have served in multiple Elder's Quorum Presidencies, including in my current ward before the change from home teaching to ministering. I know from experience that most of the brethren need to be reminded and followed up with in order to reach out to and visit their families regularly. We talked about it a lot. We did a lot of interviews to see how people were doing. And even with all of this, it was a struggle to get people to fulfill their responsibilities. In my Elder's Quorum ministering is almost never brought up. There is never any expectation made to visit anyone or report on the status and well-being of one's families to anyone. The last two times my assigned families were changed, I wasn't even informed about the change. No one has asked me anything about any of my families in two years or more. People will rise or fall to the level they are being held accountable to. That's human nature. When you remove virtually all accountability, it's a foregone conclusion that the level of engagement will drop off. 

No one has visited me or contacted me in over two years. That has never happened before in all of my years as a member of the church. I have also talked to many people about this privately and discovered that they are experiencing something similar to what I am. 

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

So you're one of those who is taking the Church further away from establishing Zion.

Don't even go there bro. I'm not the one who stopped holding people accountable and removed any expectation of regular in home visits. 

[MacGyver]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Overall it is the same program. We have the same accountability. 

From what I have experienced we went from having a lot of accountability to pretty much none. 

[Rain]

2 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Well for one thing I have served in multiple Elder's Quorum Presidencies, including in my current ward before the change from home teaching to ministering. I know from experience that most of the brethren need to be reminded and followed up with in order to reach out to and visit their families regularly. We talked about it a lot. We did a lot of interviews to see how people were doing. And even with all of this, it was a struggle to get people to fulfill their responsibilities. In my Elder's Quorum ministering is almost never brought up. There is never any expectation made to visit anyone or report on the status and well-being of one's families to anyone. The last two times my assigned families were changed, I wasn't even informed about the change. No one has asked me anything about any of my families in two years or more. People will rise or fall to the level they are being held accountable to. That's human nature. When you remove virtually all accountability, it's a foregone conclusion that the level of engagement will drop off. 

No one has visited me or contacted me in over two years. That has never happened before in all of my years as a member of the church.

Then you have seriously been blessed. I can probably count on 2-3 hands the number of times I have been home taught/ ministered to by priesthood holders in my 35 years as an adult. I do remember one home teacher who came regularly when I was a child.

2 hours ago, MacGyver said:

 I have also talked to many people about this privately and discovered that they are experiencing something similar to what I am. 

Don't even go there bro. I'm not the one who stopped holding people accountable and removed any expectation of regular in home visits. 

You are always accountable to the Lord.  If you shirk your duties it is on you not on a middle man checking your stats..

But more importantly, this life isn't about being accountable.  It is about becoming like God. I doubt he has anyone calling him and asking if he has listened to his children's prayers this month.  He does it because he loves us and then gives us the opportunity to love each other.

2 hours ago, MacGyver said:

From what I have experienced we went from having a lot of accountability to pretty much none. 

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Well for one thing I have served in multiple Elder's Quorum Presidencies, including in my current ward before the change from home teaching to ministering.

Great, so you're extrapolating from a several-years-old personal anecdote and throwing in a bit of more recent personal experience and hearsay as well. When we share what we're experiencing, however, you tell us that we're wrong and demand 'evidence'.

Quote

Don't even go there bro. I'm not the one who stopped holding people accountable and removed any expectation of regular in home visits. 

Right, because when a man fails to honour and fulfil his priesthood duties, it's a universally taught and accepted tenet of the Restored Church that the accountability lies with his priesthood leader. I think there's a verse somewhere in the D&C that teaches that, but I've forgot where. Care to remind me?

[CV75]

11 hours ago, MacGyver said:

What does publishing General Conference talks prove? Other churches publish their own sermons and teachings. 

It's not the publishing, but the content concerning the restored gospel and the people of God.

[MacGyver]

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Great, so you're extrapolating from a several-years-old personal anecdote and throwing in a bit of more recent personal experience and hearsay as well.

The church no longer tracks any data besides the number of companionships who have been interviewed each quarter. I provided this one and only stat from my ward and it's abysmal compared to what it use to be. The other evidence is all anyone has to go on, because the church removed virtually all accountability and no longer tracks visits. 

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

When we share what we're experiencing, however, you tell us that we're wrong and demand 'evidence'.

Nope. But when people say things like "we're doing better," "we're stronger," or "we're doing amazing," but won't give any evidence whatsoever for why they claim this, then I ask some follow up questions. You're really the only one who was willing to provide any evidence to support your belief that collectively we are doing better as a church than previously.

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Right, because when a man fails to honour and fulfil his priesthood duties, it's a universally taught and accepted tenet of the Restored Church that the accountability lies with his priesthood leader.

If my priesthood leaders, including the President of the Church, no longer tell me I need to do monthly in home visits and don't set any kind of meaningful standard for what I'm supposed to do, then yes that it is on them if less ministering is being done now. That doesn't absolve me of fulfilling my priesthood duties, but my leaders, including the first presidency, are responsible for telling me what my duties are. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by MacGyver

[MacGyver]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

It's not the publishing, but the content concerning the restored gospel and the people of God.

And what in the content that is being published shows that the general church membership is moving closer to what God expects and not farther away?

[CV75]

2 hours ago, MacGyver said:

And what in the content that is being published shows that the general church membership is moving closer to what God expects and not farther away?

I think we'll go around in circles if I answer at this point, so you'll have to ask a better Socratorial question, or better yet, adopt (even temporarily) a paradigm that allows you identify the examples you are looking for in the content.

[bluebell]

14 hours ago, MacGyver said:

From what I have experienced we went from having a lot of accountability to pretty much none. 

I'm not sure what you are saying.  Are you using a lack of human accountability as a measurement for how faithful members are?  Or do you mean something else?

[MacGyver]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm not sure what you are saying.  Are you using a lack of human accountability as a measurement for how faithful members are?  Or do you mean something else?

The claim was made that ministering and home/visiting teaching is essentially the exact same program with the same level of accountability. I'm challenging that claim. There is less much less accountability now and there is no longer any expectation of monthly in-home visits where a lesson is taught. 

[MacGyver]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think we'll go around in circles if I answer at this point, so you'll have to ask a better Socratorial question, or better yet, adopt (even temporarily) a paradigm that allows you identify the examples you are looking for in the content.

You claimed that the church publishing the content from Conference in the Liahona proves that we are moving closer to God as a people and closer to establishing Zion. I'm asking you to provide some examples of how you believe this shows this. I don't think that any of the content from Conference talks shows proves that we are moving closer to God as a people and closer to establishing Zion, but I'm curious why you think it does.

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

The claim was made that ministering and home/visiting teaching is essentially the exact same program with the same level of accountability. I'm challenging that claim. There is less much less accountability now and there is no longer any expectation of monthly in-home visits where a lesson is taught. 

I think Rain was making the point that the only accountability that matters is with our Savior, and that remains the same in the new program.

Personally I'm so thankful that monthly in home visits are not required anymore.  I always hated that part of visit teaching (not having to do them, but having to receive them).

[rpn]

23 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I think we can make observations on the impact this "unusual period of time" has had on the spiritual well-being of the members. And overall, I think it's clear that the impact has been largely negative.

Why do you/How can you assume that it has any impact on the "spiritual well being"?    Job lived through more horrors that is currently ongoing and he got through the mists.   Indeed we are explicitly told we can get through mists of darkness.    If you named physical, emotional, social or other well being, I wouldn't disagree.  But none of anything has to impact spiritual well being and assuming that it does for others is problematic at best.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

You claimed that the church publishing the content from Conference in the Liahona proves that we are moving closer to God as a people and closer to establishing Zion. I'm asking you to provide some examples of how you believe this shows this. I don't think that any of the content from Conference talks shows proves that we are moving closer to God as a people and closer to establishing Zion, but I'm curious why you think it does.

See what happens when you go circular? I provided the Liahona as “evidence” (your term). https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/74275-status-of-the-church-20/?do=findComment&comment=1210076026 I also put forth the content of the publication over publication of the content. https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/74275-status-of-the-church-20/?do=findComment&comment=1210076279

You're not keeping my claims straight, so how can you possibly understand my replies?

This is why I suggested you experiment with another paradigm, to consider the content o f the Liahona as providing evidence that “we” are moving closer to God as a people and closer to establishing Zion, “we” being those who are moving closer to God as a people and closer to establishing Zion.

[mfbukowski]

On 1/17/2022 at 3:21 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

Our stake had exactly five times as many convert baptisms in 2021 as in 2020 (10 vs 2), and every single one of them is still active.

I think this is a reflection of what is going on in the US more than it is evidence about the church here.

We are rapidly becoming a Godless country, but thank God we are now becoming world-wide.  There are still billions of people in the world who have never heard the name of the church, much less knowing anything we believe.

I think we are in for huge growth outside the US if the present trend continues.   I think I personally would move abroad if my family would follow, but that's not likely, so here I am!!

[MacGyver]

10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

You're not keeping my claims straight, so how can you possibly understand my replies?

You keep modifying your claims. Wasn't your most recent claim that the content of the Conference talks as published by the Liahona proves that we are moving closer to where God wants us to be as a people? 

If I misunderstood your last claim, please clarify what you were claiming.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

You keep modifying your claims. Wasn't your most recent claim that the content of the Conference talks as published by the Liahona proves that we are moving closer to where God wants us to be as a people? 

If I misunderstood your last claim, please clarify what you were claiming.

I think it better that you go back and respond to my claims without modifying them, as you've done again here ("proves").

[MacGyver]

32 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think it better that you go back and respond to my claims without modifying them, as you've done again here ("proves").

I didn't modify your claims. I asked clarifying questions. And each time I did, you modified your claim before finally shutting the discussion down by saying that it was circular and that I needed to ask better questions.

But hey, if you don't want to explain how the content of General Conference shows/proves (whatever) that we are collectively moving closer to where God wants us, that's cool. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by MacGyver

[T-Shirt]

On 1/17/2022 at 5:49 PM, kimpearson said:

Personally I think the Church is disclosing less and less and refusing to disclose many statistics that would tell us very clearly how the Church membership in generally doing.  Why is this so?  The only reason I can think of is it would cause uncertainty in faithful members and give more specific ammunition to Church critics.

What, "less and less" are you referring to?  The Church still publishes the statistical report annually, just like always.  Is there something different you are thinking of?

[MacGyver]

Duplicate post

Edited January 20, 2022 by MacGyver

[MacGyver]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think Rain was making the point that the only accountability that matters is with our Savior, and that remains the same in the new program.

This is the Savior's church isn't it? We believe that he leads and guides it don't we? Is he asking us to do less or for our leaders to hold us less accountable?

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

Personally I'm so thankful that monthly in home visits are not required anymore.  I always hated that part of visit teaching (not having to do them, but having to receive them).

I can understand this to a certain extent with visiting teaching, which was really more of a program, but home teaching is a priesthood responsibility commanded in the D&C. I don't think it was good to remove the expectation of monthly or even regular in-home visits. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by MacGyver

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 hours ago, MacGyver said:

My leaders, including the first presidency, are responsible for telling me what my duties are. 

Well, we've arrived precisely where I suspected we would: it's the prophets who are leading us further away from establishing Zion.

[MacGyver]

Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

Well, we've arrived precisely where I suspected we would: it's the prophets who are leading us further away from establishing Zion.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

But since you want to go there, is it the leaders and first presidencies job to tell us what our duties are or not?

And do you believe that our leaders, including the first presidency, are infallible and incapable of making any decisions that turn out to be wrong or misguided?

[Hamba Tuhan]

56 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

I don't think it was good to remove the expectation of monthly or even regular in-home visits. 

You already know this, but no one has removed the expectation of regular and/or in-home visits.

From Elder Holland, when he announced the program improvements in General Conference:

Quote

We will continue to visit homes as possible, but local circumstances such as large numbers, long distances, personal safety, and other challenging conditions may preclude a visit to every home every month. As the First Presidency counseled years ago, do the best you can. In addition to whatever schedule you establish for actual visits, that calendar can be supplemented with telephone calls, written notes, texts, emails, video chats, conversations at Church meetings, shared service projects, social activities, and a host of possibilities in the world of social media. However, I should stress that this expansive new view does not include the sorry statement I recently saw on an automobile bumper sticker. It read, “If I honk, you’ve been home taught.” Please, please, brethren ... with these adjustments we want more care and concern, not less.

From chapter 21 of the current Handbook:

Quote

Ministering sisters and brothers adapt their efforts to the needs and circumstances of those they serve. Personal visits are encouraged, considering factors such as safety, distance, and cultural appropriateness. Ministering sisters and brothers can also reach out in other ways. These include phone calls, video calls, texts, emails, letters, social media, contact at church, and acts of service.

From the FAQ page on the Church's Ministering website:

Quote

Ministering is similar to home teaching and visiting teaching in that each household will have priesthood brethren—ministering brothers—to minister to and care for the family or individuals who live there ...

In addition, some requirements of home teaching and visiting teaching have been adjusted to help members minister with greater focus on meeting needs. No longer must contacts always be formal visits. They can take place at home, at church, or in any setting that is safe, convenient, and reachable ...

Given numbers, distances, safety, and other considerations, a visit to every home every month may not be possible or practical; nevertheless, personal visits are important when they can be made. To serve as the Savior would, ministering brothers and sisters consider every possibility for care and contact with those they are assigned.

People who claim that we have been asked to do less than before are lying, and they know it.

[Hamba Tuhan]

12 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

But since you want to go there, is it the leaders and first presidencies job to tell us what our duties are or not?

Yes, please see some examples of their doing precisely this in my post immediately above.^