Status of the Church 2.0

[MacGyver]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

How old are you (rough decade) and did you grow up outside of the Mormon corridor or not?

I'm in my late 30s and grew up in Mesa, Arizona.

[Fether]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

In what ways have you observed that the faithful are way more faithful than previously? Do you have any evidence to back this up?

And again, if the apathetic members, which have always been the majority, are becoming much more apathetic, how is this a sign that things are doing amazing and that we are moving in the right direction?

Again, it’s just been my own experience. Growing up, everyone just kinda went to church. And at church we talked about the gospel. Today, I see a ton Of people defending those principles as oppose to just learning it. 
 

and again… qualify what you mean by “right direction”. I define it as “moving toward what scripture has prophesied.”

[MacGyver]

45 minutes ago, Fether said:

Growing up, everyone just kinda went to church. And at church we talked about the gospel. Today, I see a ton Of people defending those principles as oppose to just learning it.

You see a higher percentage of the members defending the principles of the gospel, and presumably living those principles, today than when you were growing up?

46 minutes ago, Fether said:

qualify what you mean by “right direction”

I mean precisely what I said in the OP, which was, "Are we collectively closer to the kind of people God would have us be in order to establish Zion than we were in times past or are we farther away?"

47 minutes ago, Fether said:

I define it as “moving toward what scripture has prophesied.”

And what do you believe the scriptures have prophesied about the direction in which the general church membership moves in the last days and in what ways do you believe we are fulfilling these prophecies?

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, MacGyver said:

It sounds like it's safe to say that the unity of your ward isn't as strong as it was pre-COVID, which has definitely been my experience where I'm at.

I was going to agree with you and then I thought about it and I had to delete that reply.  Our unity before covid was faltering due to some things that happened in the ward with different members.  The new influx of members has greatly improved our unity over what it was.

Though there is still room to improve.

[Fether]

27 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

"Are we collectively closer to the kind of people God would have us be in order to establish Zion than we were in times past or are we farther away?"

I would say we may be further away, but that isn’t the goal, nor is it what is expected for the last days. The elect will be deceived.

 

28 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

You see a higher percentage of the members defending the principles of the gospel, and presumably living those principles, today than when you were growing up?

Yep!

28 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

And what do you believe the scriptures have prophesied about the direction in which the general church membership moves in the last days and in what ways do you believe we are fulfilling these prophecies?

You seem very invested in this topic, almost to the verge are arguing. There are more exciting threads I would rather put time into so I won’t be looking up scriptures and prophetic references.

[CV75]

16 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Based on what? What evidence do you have of this?

The scriptures and the Liahona. The scriptures define and prophesy of the people of God, and the Liahona shows how the people of God are fulfilling prophecy and gathering Zion. As long as Zion is being established, we are the kind of people God would have us be to do it, all things considered (e.g. time, place, circumstances, etc.).

[MacGyver]

44 minutes ago, Fether said:

You seem very invested in this topic

Yes, as an active and believing Latter-day Saint, I am very much invested in the current spiritual status of the church. We all should be. 

44 minutes ago, Fether said:

There are more exciting threads I would rather put time into so I won’t be looking up scriptures and prophetic references.

You are the one that brought them up, so I was wondering what you believed the prophecies say and how we as a people are fulfilling them and thereby headed in the right direction. But if this topic is too boring for you, then I guess I won't hold my breath for an answer.

Edited January 18, 2022 by MacGyver

[MacGyver]

39 minutes ago, CV75 said:

The scriptures and the Liahona. The scriptures define and prophesy of the people of God, and the Liahona shows how the people of God are fulfilling prophecy and gathering Zion. As long as Zion is being established, we are the kind of people God would have us be to do it, all things considered (e.g. time, place, circumstances, etc.).

What would the Liahona look like if we were moving farther away from establishing Zion?

[CV75]

3 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

What would the Liahona look like if we were moving farther away from establishing Zion?

Like any other magazine!

[Fether]

10 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

Yes, as an active and believing Latter-day Saint, I am very much invested in the current spiritual status of the church. We all should be. 

You are the one that brought them up, so I was wondering what you believed the prophecies say and how we as a people are fulfilling them and thereby headed in the right direction. But if this topic is too boring for you, then I guess I won't hold my breath for an answer.

You asked a series of difficult questions about how the church is doing spiritually. You summed up the entirety of your core with “I think we are further away”… so I assumed you would be looking for a similar Caliber response.
 

Had I know you were going to hold everyone else to a higher standard and demand pew research, peer reviewed articles and dissertations on revelations of the last days, I would not have commented.

So I will now ask you. What do you have to justify your audacious statement “I think we are further away”. I will only accept doctrinal references and peer reviewed studies. If you can’t provide those, you obviously don’t care about the church as you should.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Fether

[Olmec Donald]

22 hours ago, MacGyver said:

But what about the spiritual status of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? How are we doing as a people? Are we collectively closer to the kind of people God would have us be in order to establish Zion than we were in times past or are we farther away?

I have not been active LDS for decades, and even back then probably wouldn't have felt qualified to evaluate other people's personal spiritual trajectories.

But I do feel qualified to evaluate the trajectory of the top leadership over the course of church history, as their teachings and policies have pretty much been out there for us to see.  And it is reasonable to assume that they largely set the tone for the members.

14 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Here would be some examples of evidence:

... more miracles, more visions and dreams, more prophecy, etc. 

These are some of the things that imo were in play during the time of Joseph Smith to an extent which apparently has not been seen since, as (for example) a glance at the dates in the section headings in the D&C shows.  Maybe that matters and maybe not; I can think of arguments both ways.

At some point I began to question the oft-repeated guarantee that the Lord will never allow the president of the church to lead the people astray.  And likewise to question the axiom that the words of living church leaders out-rank the words of dead ones.   

Imo God has not ceased to speak to the people of the earth, but I no longer think the LDS Church has a virtual monopoly on communication from God.  

Edited January 18, 2022 by Olmec Donald

[MacGyver]

28 minutes ago, Fether said:

Had I know you were going to hold everyone else to a higher standard and demand pew research, peer reviewed articles and dissertations on revelations of the last days, I would not have commented.

When did I ask for any of these things?

29 minutes ago, Fether said:

What do you have to justify your audacious statement “I think we are further away”. I will only accept doctrinal references and peer reviewed studies. If you can’t provide those, you obviously don’t care about the church as you should.

I provided several pieces of evidence already. Zero convert baptisms in my ward in 2020, and only one in 2021, who went off the deep end within a month or so, and a massive drop off in ministering/home teaching. Temple recommend holders and temple attendance is also way down. These are all measurable and show that we are doing worse in proclaiming the gospel, perfecting the saints, and redeeming the dead than we were previously.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I'm an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Yes, I know we now call it ministering. From what I have observed over the past couple of years, the switch to ministering has been very bad for the church. I haven't had an in home visit from my the two brethren who are assigned to my family since the switch to ministering. In two years they haven't asked me how I'm doing, how my family is doing, or done anything that use to be expected monthly under home teaching. My previously faithful home teacher who came monthly never came again after the switch to ministering. He did text and ask me at church how we were doing periodically, but that was it. My current ministering brothers, who I have had for two years, haven't done anything to minister to me or my family. 

For the last quarter the Elder's Quorum only interviewed a third of the companionships. Home teaching/ministering has gone way down hill since the switch. Everything about it is worse now than it was before. 

Interesting, and likely true.  However, is it ultimately a bad or a good thing that ministers have become so complacent?

[MacGyver]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

is it ultimately a bad or a good thing that ministers have become so complacent?

How could this possibly be good thing that so many men are now neglecting their duty to visit the homes of the members and watch over the church as commanded in the D&C?

[Robert F. Smith]

30 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

How could this possibly be good thing that so many men are now neglecting their duty to visit the homes of the members and watch over the church as commanded in the D&C?

That is the expected answer, and I tend to agree.  However, that doesn't mean that we are correct.  There may be other consequences of such neglect.  Could it spur self-reliance?

[rpn]

On 1/17/2022 at 4:36 PM, bluebell said:

His feelings are based on very limited data and so aren't really indicative of much, other than what is happening in our ward at this point in time. 

 

I don't see how we can determine anything in this unusual period of time.    There s a lot more to being unable/unwilling to do callings (especially in wards that don't mask up, social distance, and vaccinate) than being unfaithful or less faithful.  

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, rpn said:

I don't see how we can determine anything in this unusual period of time.    There s a lot more to being unable/unwilling to do callings (especially in wards that don't mask up, social distance, and vaccinate) than being unfaithful or less faithful.  

I agree.

[MacGyver]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

Like any other magazine!

Like a magazine from another faith? 

[MacGyver]

33 minutes ago, rpn said:

I don't see how we can determine anything in this unusual period of time.    There s a lot more to being unable/unwilling to do callings (especially in wards that don't mask up, social distance, and vaccinate) than being unfaithful or less faithful.  

I think we can make observations on the impact this "unusual period of time" has had on the spiritual well-being of the members. And overall, I think it's clear that the impact has been largely negative.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

Like a magazine from another faith? 

Yes, any other magazine doesn't publish General Conference semiannually, two out of twelve monthly issues, the content of the remaining ten issues backing them up 100%.

[MacGyver]

32 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, any other magazine doesn't publish General Conference semiannually, two out of twelve monthly issues, the content of the remaining ten issues backing them up 100%.

What does publishing General Conference talks prove? Other churches publish their own sermons and teachings. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 hours ago, MacGyver said:

For the last quarter the Elder's Quorum only interviewed a third of the companionships.

So you have no way of knowing how much ministering in your ward is being done. At all. And your EQ presidency doesn't know either.

But here's the really important question: how are you currently performing in your ministering assignments? Please provide evidence.

[MacGyver]

25 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

So you have no way of knowing how much ministering in your ward is being done. At all. And your EQ presidency doesn't know either.

I have a pretty good idea about how little ministering is being done. 

26 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

But here's the really important question: how are you currently performing in your ministering assignments? Please provide evidence.

I'm doing a lot more than I'm being held accountable for by my leaders (which is literally nothing), but less than I did under home teaching. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, MacGyver said:

I have a pretty good idea about how little ministering is being done. 

Please provide evidence.

Quote

I'm doing a lot more than I'm being held accountable for by my leaders (which is literally nothing), but less than I did under home teaching. 

So you're one of those who is taking the Church further away from establishing Zion.

[Rain]

 

 

24 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

I have a pretty good idea about how little ministering is being done. 

I'm doing a lot more than I'm being held accountable for by my leaders (which is literally nothing), but less than I did under home teaching. 

I'm doing the same as I was before, but then I've always thought the teachings in conference about helping them with their needs was the right way to go about it instead of a once a month checkmark. 

Overall it is the same program. We have the same accountability.  The only real difference is how much we are supposed to present how we are doing to leadership and I never thought that really mattered anyway.  I'm happy to have that change because now I know when my ministering people actually want to visit or check on me instead of doing because someone might get after them. And this to me actually shows what I was saying above - spirituality didn't go down; we are just seeing the evidence of what was already there or not there.