Status of the Church 2.0

[Fether]

@MacGyver

Can you qualify a bit more on what you are asking? I would concede that the church is facing more attacks today than ever before, and we are likely losing more people today than ever before. The advent of the smart phone and subsequent social media addiction surely has a hold on countless saints. and Pornography, amoral messaging in media, and the never temptations to slack on morals are getting much worst.

That being said, I do believe the church is more well spiritually strong today than in years past.

[Calm]

On 1/17/2022 at 6:20 PM, Fether said:

uld concede that the church is facing more attacks today than ever before, and we are likely losing more people today than ever before.

Ever before?  Maybe in terms of numbers because we are larger and communications have expanded the potential for those paying close attention, but I think the early church went through much more relatively speaking. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Calm

[kimpearson]

5 hours ago, MacGyver said:

There has been a thread going for some time now about the physical status of the Church in regards to meetings with COVID-19. But what about the spiritual status of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? How are we doing as a people? Are we collectively closer to the kind of people God would have us be in order to establish Zion than we were in times past or are we farther away?

I say farther away, but what do all of you say?

I think it is almost impossible for any of us on this board to say church wide.  We are each going to express our opinion based on our own personal experience.  My stake as seen a significant number (5 to 10%) deciding not to return to in person church and church activity.  My ward has seen a much larger increase in members unwilling to serve in any church calling per my recent discussion with my bishop.

Personally I think the Church is disclosing less and less and refusing to disclose many statistics that would tell us very clearly how the Church membership in generally doing.  Why is this so?  The only reason I can think of is it would cause uncertainty in faithful members and give more specific ammunition to Church critics.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I am observing the same things as your husband, but this isn't necessarily why I think we're moving in the wrong direction.

For one thing how are we doing in regards to the three fold mission of the church since COVID? How are we doing in regards to proclaiming the gospel, perfecting the saints, and redeeming the dead? 

My observation is that we're not doing nearly as well at accomplishing these three things as we were previously. 

I would say that this was already moving in the wrong direction before COVID, but COVID has only made it worse. 

Four fold mission of the church. Serve the poor and the needy.

 

[MacGyver]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Serve the poor and the needy.

You can't call people "poor and needy" anymore. According to a recent handbook update, now it's "helping those in need."

[carbon dioxide]

7 hours ago, MacGyver said:

There has been a thread going for some time now about the physical status of the Church in regards to meetings with COVID-19. But what about the spiritual status of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? How are we doing as a people? Are we collectively closer to the kind of people God would have us be in order to establish Zion than we were in times past or are we farther away?

I say farther away, but what do all of you say?

Speaking at least in of the church in the western US, I think we are further away. The whole mask and vaccination thing has exposed a rot among many members in the west who value your personal "freedoms" above all else.  I believe being a part of Zion requires one may need to sacrifice ones wants to help others.  If wearing a mask is too much of a trial for some, how will they deal with life when far more sacrifice is required?

[MacGyver]

3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You don't seem to want personal evidence based on the living, breathing people we interact with in our own wards/stakes. I'm not sure we can help you.

I would love for anyone here to provide any real evidence that the members of the church are drawing closer to God collectively and not farther away. Saying the members are growing closer to God, while not giving a single peace of evidence to back this up, doesn't cut it.

Anyone can say that we are moving in the right direction, and most people will likely want to believe that this is the case. 

Here would be some examples of evidence:

More converts and better retention of converts, less divorces and broken families, more youth becoming active faithful members as adults rather than falling away, more members living separate from the world and fully living the gospel of Jesus Christ without any compromises to Babylon, better more spiritually uplifting lessons, meetings, and youth activities, more ward and stake unity, higher percentage of temple recommend holders and full tithe payers, increased temple attendance, more miracles, more visions and dreams, more prophecy, etc. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by MacGyver

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

Here would be some examples of evidence:

More converts and better retention of converts, less divorces and broken families, more youth becoming active faithful members as adults rather than falling away, more members living separate from the world and fully living the gospel of Jesus Christ without any compromises to Babylon, better more spiritually uplifting lessons, meetings, and youth activities, more ward and stake unity, higher percentage of temple recommend holders and full tithe payers, increased temple attendance, more miracles, more visions and dreams, more prophecy, etc. 

I've already mentioned several of those and similar.

To which I could also add: record institute enrolments, record number of seminary graduates last year, and all but one of my mission prep students now serving or awaiting a call, with the number of missionaries from our stake exceeding the number of missionaries serving in our stake.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[MacGyver]

4 hours ago, Fether said:

When I look online, I say further away.

I definitely see the same thing.

4 hours ago, Fether said:

When I look in my own ward, I say we are doing amazing.

What makes you say that?

4 hours ago, Fether said:

Generally speaking, I find the faithful to be far more faithful, the apathetical far more apathetical, and the enemies far more hostile.

On what grounds do you say that the faithful are "far more faithful" than in the past?

And if those who are apathetic are now far more apathetic, how is this a sign that "we're doing amazing?"

[MacGyver]

4 hours ago, Fether said:

Covid probably had nothing to do with that huh

I'm sure COVID did have something to do with this. I said as much in the OP. 

So what is the spiritual state of the church amidst COVID? As a people are we closer to God and where he wants us to be or farther away?

[MacGyver]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yep, it's palpable in sacrament meeting sermons, chats after church, visits in the home, posts online, etc. The faithful are visibly (audibly?) deepening in their conversion to Christ. Everything is more real. People in lessons are able to talk about personal revelation in an immediate way, not generic, not something that happened once years ago. People are sharing their experiences ministering, and they are powerful.

Did these sort of things not happen before? 

In my experience it's been the other way around. Less true conversion to Christ, an overall lack of the Spirit in many of our lessons, and less examples of powerful experiences when serving others. 

[MacGyver]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm not really sure where my ward is at.  We still have people not coming because of covid so it's hard to tell who has stopped altogether and who just isn't seen anymore. 

It sounds like it's safe to say that the unity of your ward isn't as strong as it was pre-COVID, which has definitely been my experience where I'm at.

Edited January 18, 2022 by MacGyver

[Calm]

9 hours ago, MacGyver said:

and redeeming the dead, or less success?

How old are you (rough decade) and did you grow up outside of the Mormon corridor or not?  I grew up in California and Illinois and even when there was a temple I could see from my school, no one in my wards appeared to be very interested in temple work.  We never did temple trips for baptisms as a youth.  (Ski trips in the mountains, pageants, and youth conferences lots though…)  I heard from my grandmother who lived across the Bay sessions were light and only old people were there except for live endowments.  When we moved to Kansas in late 80’s the family history center was staffed by me and several nonmembers and very few members used it.  Genealogy classes at BYU in the late 70’s were pretty small in comparison to my other religion classes (even Isaiah was much bigger) and the FH section never that packed in the Lee library.

They are not building temples that stand empty.

I see much, much more interest in family history among members now and though it is only in the Mormon Corridor I can report, I saw a number of younger temple workers the few times I have been able to go the last ten years.  When I grew up, it was only the older men that were interested in church history and the older women in the temple.  Last 15 years, there are more and more youth of all types that get involved in apologetics and learning in-depth about the Church…or at least that has been my experience.  Part of it is technology, it is much easier to find good info and mentors now.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Calm

[MacGyver]

2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Speaking at least in of the church in the western US, I think we are further away. The whole mask and vaccination thing has exposed a rot among many members in the west who value your personal "freedoms" above all else.  I believe being a part of Zion requires one may need to sacrifice ones wants to help others.  If wearing a mask is too much of a trial for some, how will they deal with life when far more sacrifice is required?

I don't know that it really matters all that much whether someone decided to wear a mask at church or not. There was some tension over this in my ward (and still is to a very small extent).

Some of this is in my opinion due to hypocrisy when it comes to wearing masks. Like the Bishopric and Stake Presidency wearing masks on the stand, but nowhere else. What's the point of wearing one on the stand when no one is close to you? It's all just for show at that point. While I love and respect these men for their efforts to serve the members of our ward and stake, that sort of thing rubs me the wrong way. Either wear the mask or don't, but don't just put it on when you're on the stand to "set a good example."

Edited January 18, 2022 by MacGyver

[MacGyver]

3 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Personally I think the Church is disclosing less and less and refusing to disclose many statistics that would tell us very clearly how the Church membership in generally doing.  Why is this so?  The only reason I can think of is it would cause uncertainty in faithful members and give more specific ammunition to Church critics.

I think this is a very astute observation.

[Hamba Tuhan]

21 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

Did these sort of things not happen before? 

Yes, but they happen both more intensely and more frequently lately.

Quote

In my experience it's been the other way around. Less true conversion to Christ, an overall lack of the Spirit in many of our lessons, and less examples of powerful experiences when serving others. 

I'm sorry to hear that. We're clearly having very different experiences.

[Hamba Tuhan]

12 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

There was some tension over this in my ward (and still is to a very small extent).

There has been zero 'tension' over this in my ward. That sounds like unity to me.

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

There has been zero 'tension' over this in my ward. That sounds like unity to me.

Wards are highly variable in personality across the US in my experience.  I see no reason to assume just because we are using the same materials to teach, we bring to them the same experience and use them the same way. Even at BYU, my branches were all quite different.   I would assume that external culture also has an impact and the US has a lot of cultural influence worldwide through Hollywood in my experience (in Russia in the early 90s, Disney was everywhere as well as bootlegged Hollywood DVDs).

 But now the reverse is happening, for example Netflix has a ton of internationally produced shows.  I haven’t watched anything in English beyond some DIY shows and a few British and Australian/New Zealand murder mysteries (Acorn TV) in months because the international content is so much more interesting to me and more than abundant enough.  And the quality has changed drastically in the 5 years since I started watching international shows more than American made, much, much better.

I am interested in seeing where this is headed, more diversity available whenever we want it or do we all head to a generic mass that is much less American than I was thinking it would be 25 years ago.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, MacGyver said:

................. In home visits (home and visiting teaching) are way down. 

i thought we were calling that "ministering" now, and for several years already.  Which church did you say you are a member of?

[Fether]

7 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I'm sure COVID did have something to do with this. I said as much in the OP. 

So what is the spiritual state of the church amidst COVID? As a people are we closer to God and where he wants us to be or farther away?

Honestly… I dont think that question is really as important. I if the church was concerned about the average spiritual level of its members, it would not have switched to home centered church.

That switch right there was the exact opposite of what a secular organization should do to maintain its influence on its members.

[Rain]

I don't see things headed downhill.  Rather,  I see people are showing sides to them that weren't shown before or seeing where God is and is not that they didn't see before.  For decades the church has talked about spiritual self reliance and as people have had to do more on their own it shows those that were building it up.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Rain

[Fether]

7 hours ago, MacGyver said:

What makes you say that?

Ben Shapiro once asked Jocko Willink about all the political turmoil in the world and if we will ever overcome the incessant conflict.

Jocko said he doesn’t see any conflict. He pointed out that because Ben is always online and engaging in political discourse, all he sees are the people who want to fight. Jocko travels all around the world and works with people in their home and work. He says everyone he meets is working hard for the same things: be happy and provide for their family.

I have a similar experience when I look around my own ward and speak to friends and family inside and outside the church.

It all depends on what you focus on.

7 hours ago, MacGyver said:

On what grounds do you say that the faithful are "far more faithful" than in the past?

In my own grounds. This has been my experience. I don’t have any studies, video recordings, or interviews to show you.

7 hours ago, MacGyver said:

And if those who are apathetic are now far more apathetic, how is this a sign that "we're doing amazing?"

Again, I dont quite understand where the goal posts are. I’ll just point to my other reply to you for this answer.

[MacGyver]

8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

We're clearly having very different experiences.

That's what it sounds like. Or we perceive what is going on differently. 

[MacGyver]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

i thought we were calling that "ministering" now, and for several years already.  Which church did you say you are a member of?

I'm an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Yes, I know we now call it ministering. From what I have observed over the past couple of years, the switch to ministering has been very bad for the church. I haven't had an in home visit from my the two brethren who are assigned to my family since the switch to ministering. In two years they haven't asked me how I'm doing, how my family is doing, or done anything that use to be expected monthly under home teaching. My previously faithful home teacher who came monthly never came again after the switch to ministering. He did text and ask me at church how we were doing periodically, but that was it. My current ministering brothers, who I have had for two years, haven't done anything to minister to me or my family. 

For the last quarter the Elder's Quorum only interviewed a third of the companionships. Home teaching/ministering has gone way down hill since the switch. Everything about it is worse now than it was before. 

[MacGyver]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

In my own grounds. This has been my experience.

In what ways have you observed that the faithful are way more faithful than previously? Do you have any evidence to back this up?

And again, if the apathetic members, which have always been the majority, are becoming much more apathetic, how is this a sign that things are doing amazing and that we are moving in the right direction?