Status of the Church 2.0

[MacGyver]

There has been a thread going for some time now about the physical status of the Church in regards to meetings with COVID-19. But what about the spiritual status of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? How are we doing as a people? Are we collectively closer to the kind of people God would have us be in order to establish Zion than we were in times past or are we farther away?

I say farther away, but what do all of you say?

Edited January 17, 2022 by MacGyver

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

There has been a thread going for some time now about the physical status of the Church in regards to meetings with COVID-19. But what about the spiritual status of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? How are we doing as a people? Are we collectively closer to the kind of people God would have us be in order to establish Zion than we were in times past or are we farther away?

I say farther away, but what do all of you say?

I'm not sure how we would tell.

Why do you believe we are farther away?

[MacGyver]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm not sure how we would tell.

We could look at the level of commitment and righteous of the members of the church compared to what is described in the scriptures and what we have observed in times past. I think this would give us a pretty good idea.

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Why do you believe we are farther away?

From what I have observed, collectively I see less righteousness, less commitment to the cause of Christ, and less unity among us than in times past. 

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

We could look at the level of commitment and righteous of the members of the church compared to what is described in the scriptures and what we have observed in times past. I think this would give us a pretty good idea.

We could try, but a lot of that would not be visual to a casual observer.  I can't look at someone at church and judge their commitment or level of righteousness, for example.  And I can't compare anyone to what I've seen in times past because my memories of times past are clouded by time, my own experiences, and my own weaknesses (both back then, and now).

Quote

From what I have observed, collectively I see less righteousness, less commitment to the cause of Christ, and less unity among us than in times past. 

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Do you see fewer people with a temple recommend?  Have activity rates gone down?  Is that what you mean?

[CV75]

33 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

There has been a thread going for some time now about the physical status of the Church in regards to meetings with COVID-19. But what about the spiritual status of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? How are we doing as a people? Are we collectively closer to the kind of people God would have us be in order to establish Zion than we were in times past or are we farther away?

I say farther away, but what do all of you say?

I'd say closer, just a hunch given what I see going on with the members of the Church across the globe.

[bluebell]

My husband is in a bishopric and he constantly laments on how hard it is to find people who are willing to serve in callings.  Our ward is large (over 600 people) with a normal activity rate so there are plenty of people available, but not that many who will say yes.  Even among those who are "active" and hold temple recommends.  And don't get him started on the people who say yes, even when it they are specifically informed of the time committed the calling requires, and then don't do anything.

So his perspective is that people are becoming less committed to the church.  BUT, this is the first time that he has been in the position that he is in, where he actually has experience with people accepting or turning down callings and is in a position to know the numbers.  If the rate of acceptance was more in the past, or if they were less in the past, or if it just depends on the area or ward, he really has no way of knowing.

His feelings are based on very limited data and so aren't really indicative of much, other than what is happening in our ward at this point in time. 

For all we know, this has been a common problem that spans decades and decades, or it was a problem back in the 1930s or 1960s, or 1980s but got better, only to now get worse again, or maybe we are in a period where people are actually fairly committed to serving in the church, compared to other eras but we just don't know it, or it really does completely depend on the area of the world on how good members are at callings, or any any number of other realities. 

[MacGyver]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I'd say closer, just a hunch given what I see going on with the members of the Church across the globe.

What do you see going on with members across the globe that makes you say we are moving closer as a people to where God wants us to be?

[MacGyver]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

My husband is in a bishopric and he constantly laments on how hard it is to find people who are willing to serve in callings.  Our ward is large (over 600 people) with a normal activity rate so there are plenty of people available, but not that many who will say yes.  Even among those who are "active" and hold temple recommends.  And don't get him started on the people who say yes, even when it they are specifically informed of the time committed the calling requires, and then don't do anything.

So his perspective is that people are becoming less committed to the church.  BUT, this is the first time that he has been in the position that he is in, where he actually has experience with people accepting or turning down callings and is in a position to know the numbers.  If the rate of acceptance was more in the past, or if they were less in the past, or if it just depends on the area or ward, he really has no way of knowing.

His feelings are based on very limited data and so aren't really indicative of much, other than what is happening in our ward at this point in time. 

For all we know, this has been a common problem that spans decades and decades, or it was a problem back in the 1930s or 1960s, or 1980s but got better, only to now get worse again, or maybe we are in a period where people are actually fairly committed to serving in the church, compared to other eras but we just don't know it, or it really does completely depend on the area of the world on how good members are at callings, or any any number of other realities. 

I am observing the same things as your husband, but this isn't necessarily why I think we're moving in the wrong direction.

For one thing how are we doing in regards to the three fold mission of the church since COVID? How are we doing in regards to proclaiming the gospel, perfecting the saints, and redeeming the dead? 

My observation is that we're not doing nearly as well at accomplishing these three things as we were previously. 

I would say that this was already moving in the wrong direction before COVID, but COVID has only made it worse. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Are we collectively closer to the kind of people God would have us be in order to establish Zion than we were in times past or are we farther away?

I have no clue how to quantify this 'collectively'. In my ward and stake, I can see both occurring simultaneously. It's a very individual thing.

[Hamba Tuhan]

13 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

How are we doing in regards to proclaiming the gospel ... ?

Our stake had exactly five times as many convert baptisms in 2021 as in 2020 (10 vs 2), and every single one of them is still active.

[MacGyver]

1 minute ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I have no clue how to quantify this 'collectively'. In my ward and stake, I can see both occurring simultaneously. It's a very individual thing.

Are you see more members in your ward and stake moving closer to what God wants or more moving farther away?

Is your ward and stake having more success in proclaiming the gospel, perfecting the saints, and redeeming the dead, or less success?

[MacGyver]

3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Our stake had exactly five times as many convert baptisms in 2021 as in 2020 (10 vs 2), and every single one of them is still active.

How many convert baptisms did your stake have in 2019? Or 2018? Or 2010?

Is 10 convert baptisms higher or lower than what your stake has historically experienced?

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

Are you see more members in your ward and stake moving closer to what God wants or more moving farther away?

More moving closer, for certain.

Quote

Is your ward and stake having more success in proclaiming the gospel, perfecting the saints, and redeeming the dead, or less success?

As I mentioned above, more success in proclaiming the gospel. Based on numbers, I'd say say we're having success perfecting the Saints in more cases than not. Redeeming the dead has been tough with the temple being closed and now barely open. I personally have attended one session in the past two years.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

How many convert baptisms did your stake have in 2019? Or 2018? Or 2010?

2019: 10

2018: 13

Quote

Is 10 convert baptisms higher or lower than what your stake has historically experienced?

It's a bit lower, but pretty fantastic for a pandemic year characterised by disruptions to services, lockdowns, and very few missionaries or opportunities to socialise!

Also, the 100 per cent (so far) retention rate is unprecedented.

[MacGyver]

11 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

More moving closer, for certain.

What evidence do you have that collectively the members are moving closer to what God wants?

13 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Based on numbers, I'd say say we're having success perfecting the Saints in more cases than not.

What numbers are you referring to? And are you having more success now than in the past or less? Are you seeing more or less quality lessons, activities, service projects, in home visits, etc.?

13 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Redeeming the dead has been tough with the temple being closed and now barely open. I personally have attended one session in the past two years.

I think this is pretty standard throughout the church with so many temple closed. We're in the same boat where I'm at. 

[MacGyver]

11 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

2019: 10

2018: 13

It's a bit lower, but pretty fantastic for a pandemic year characterised by disruptions to services, lockdowns, and very few missionaries or opportunities to socialise!

Also, the 100 per cent (so far) retention rate is unprecedented.

My ward had zero baptisms in 2020. We had one in 2021 who went completely off the rails within a couple of months. 

Temple attendance and the percentage of members with temple recommends is way down.

Sacrament meeting and 2nd hour meeting attendance is way down. In home visits (home and visiting teaching) are way down. 

[bluebell]

51 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

I am observing the same things as your husband, but this isn't necessarily why I think we're moving in the wrong direction.

For one thing how are we doing in regards to the three fold mission of the church since COVID? How are we doing in regards to proclaiming the gospel, perfecting the saints, and redeeming the dead? 

My observation is that we're not doing nearly as well at accomplishing these three things as we were previously. 

I would say that this was already moving in the wrong direction before COVID, but COVID has only made it worse. 

How can we know what is a ward or area issue and what is actually relevant for the whole church?

It's hard to take a personal example and make it apply to everyone.

[MacGyver]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

How can we know what is a ward or area issue and what is actually relevant for the whole church?

It's hard to take a personal example and make it apply to everyone.

That's why I'm asking for people's observations and opinions so we can get a better idea of what's going on in the church as a whole. 

[Fether]

3 hours ago, MacGyver said:

But what about the spiritual status of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

When I look online, I say further away. When I look in my own ward, I say we are doing amazing.

Generally speaking, I find the faithful to be far more faithful, the apathetical far more apathetical, and the enemies far more hostile.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Fether

[Fether]

29 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

My ward had zero baptisms in 2020. We had one in 2021 who went completely off the rails within a couple of months. 

Temple attendance and the percentage of members with temple recommends is way down.

Sacrament meeting and 2nd hour meeting attendance is way down. In home visits (home and visiting teaching) are way down. 

Covid probably had nothing to do with that huh

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, Fether said:

Generally speaking, I find the faithful to be far more faithful ...

Yep, it's palpable in sacrament meeting sermons, chats after church, visits in the home, posts online, etc. The faithful are visibly (audibly?) deepening in their conversion to Christ. Everything is more real. People in lessons are able to talk about personal revelation in an immediate way, not generic, not something that happened once years ago. People are sharing their experiences ministering, and they are powerful.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

What do you see going on with members across the globe that makes you say we are moving closer as a people to where God wants us to be?

We are moving closer to God a people.  Are you with us?

[MacGyver]

9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

We are moving closer to God a people

Based on what? What evidence do you have of this?

[bluebell]

I'm not really sure where my ward is at.  We still have people not coming because of covid so it's hard to tell who has stopped altogether and who just isn't seen anymore. 

Plus, since covid started, we have had our ward boundaries changed and gotten 200+ new move ins due to a subdivision that only had about five houses in it when covid started finally being finished (now with over 300 new residences).  So I can't compare what the ward was like a few years ago compared to what it is like today.  The ward that existed a few years ago is gone, and new ward now exists in its place.

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

Based on what? What evidence do you have of this?

You don't seem to want personal evidence based on the living, breathing people we interact with in our own wards/stakes. I'm not sure we can help you.