Status of the Church 2.0

[MacGyver]

5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

People who claim that we have been asked to do less than before are lying, and they know it.

Falsely accusing people of lying isn't cool dude. And the fact that you have to stoop to this is very telling. 

Sure when the new program was rolled out it it was claimed that we were going to do more now, not less. But what is the reality of what is actually happening and what are we actually being asked to do from our leaders? And what we are being held accountable for? There is no more expectation to even check in with our families monthly or teach them in their homes. Sure we can still do these things and it's not discouraged, but we are no longer expected to do this. Like I said, in my ward the drop off has been staggering since the change to ministering and then COVID. I am literally not being asked to do anything for my families and no one checks up on me. This isn't just in this past quarter, we're talking two years or more. I have never in all of my adult life gone more than a few months without having to report my efforts and give an update on the status of my families. Then the switch to ministering happens and the rest is history.

Everything Elder Holland said about alternatives to actual monthly in home visits were already being done. Nothing was new there. All that is new is that we are no longer expected to visit or make meaningful contact monthly and that the frequency of contact isn't tracked in any meaningful way. Which means the standard has actually been lowered, even if we are told that it has been raised. 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

This is the Savior's church isn't it? We believe that he leads and guides it don't we? Is he asking us to do less

No.  If you read about home and visiting teaching in conference for decades the leaders have taught us that it never really was about the once a month visit.  It was about trying to help meet their needs.  While the visit and lesson were "required" it was really just an idea of how to meet needs. That did not change.

 

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

or for our leaders to hold us less accountable?

He is asking our leaders to be less of a middleman between us and God. We are still just as accountable.

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

I can understand this to a certain extent with visiting teaching, which was really more of a program, but home teaching is a priesthood responsibility commanded in the D&C.

Visiting teachers and ministering sisters today have priesthood authority to do our callings of misinstering just as we do as Relief Society presidents and any other calling/responsibility in the church.

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

I don't think it was good to remove the expectation of monthly or even regular in-home visits. 

We disagree.

If you can't find a way to do your ministering without another leader getting after you then figure out how to change.  Don't force me and others who are actually doing it to be chained to a set way of doing it and extra time reporting.

[MacGyver]

15 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yes, please see some examples of their doing precisely this in my post immediately above.^

I must have missed where they said that we still need to physically visit our families monthly or as often as possible and teach them a lesson. Does the Lord still expect us to do this or not? If so, why aren't we still being held accountable by having this tracked?

Everything else Elder Holland and the handbook say to do was already expected of us above and beyond the monthly visit and lesson.

[MacGyver]

17 minutes ago, Rain said:

Visiting teachers and ministering sisters today have priesthood authority to do our callings of misinstering just as we do as Relief Society presidents and any other calling/responsibility in the church.

When did the sisters today get this priesthood authority? 

Visiting teaching is not a priesthood responsibility, but home teaching is. It's in the D&C as a priesthood responsibility. 

[MacGyver]

20 minutes ago, Rain said:

Don't force me and others who are actually doing it to be chained to a set way of doing it and extra time reporting.

No one was forced to be chained to a certain way of ministering before. And reporting how often you had visited them, what else you had done to minister to them, and how they were doing only took a few minutes. It was not a burden at all. 

When you lower the level of accountability then the level of performance goes down. That's human nature. 

[Rain]

13 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

When did the sisters today get this priesthood authority? 

Visiting teaching is not a priesthood responsibility, but home teaching is. It's in the D&C as a priesthood responsibility. 

Elder Oaks, "

We are not accustomed to speaking of women having the authority of the priesthood in their Church callings, but what other authority can it be? When a woman—young or old—is set apart to preach the gospel as a full-time missionary, she is given priesthood authority to perform a priesthood function. The same is true when a woman is set apart to function as an officer or teacher in a Church organization under the direction of one who holds the keys of the priesthood. Whoever functions in an office or calling received from one who holds priesthood keys exercises priesthood authority in performing her or his assigned duties."

[MacGyver]

10 minutes ago, Rain said:

Elder Oaks, "

We are not accustomed to speaking of women having the authority of the priesthood in their Church callings, but what other authority can it be? When a woman—young or old—is set apart to preach the gospel as a full-time missionary, she is given priesthood authority to perform a priesthood function. The same is true when a woman is set apart to function as an officer or teacher in a Church organization under the direction of one who holds the keys of the priesthood. Whoever functions in an office or calling received from one who holds priesthood keys exercises priesthood authority in performing her or his assigned duties."

So when did women get this priesthood authority, though? They were never ordained to the priesthood. 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

Falsely accusing people of lying isn't cool dude. And the fact that you have to stoop to this is very telling. 

Sure when the new program was rolled out it it was claimed that we were going to do more now, not less. But what is the reality of what is actually happening and what are we actually being asked to do from our leaders? And what we are being held accountable for? There is no more expectation to even check in with our families monthly or teach them in their homes. Sure we can still do these things and it's not discouraged, but we are no longer expected to do this. Like I said, in my ward the drop off has been staggering since the change to ministering and then COVID. I am literally not being asked to do anything for my families and no one checks up on me. This isn't just in this past quarter, we're talking two years or more. I have never in all of my adult life gone more than a few months without having to report my efforts and give an update on the status of my families. Then the switch to ministering happens and the rest is history.

Everything Elder Holland said about alternatives to actual monthly in home visits were already being done. Nothing was new there. All that is new is that we are no longer expected to visit or make meaningful contact monthly and that the frequency of contact isn't tracked in any meaningful way. Which means the standard has actually been lowered, even if we are told that it has been raised. 

I liken it to what my dad said once at a care center for my mom in her late stages of Alzheimer's. He said he didn't care if it was fake, or not, as long as the CNA or caregivers smiled and made the residents cheer up. That's the same with home/visiting teaching or "ministering". Even though we may not enjoy going out, but know that we are needed we can fake it till we make it. And maybe the way we get it done is if we are held somewhat accountable. But I should talk, I no longer get visited or visit, took myself out of it. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Tacenda

[Olmec Donald]

30 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

So when did women get this priesthood authority, though? They were never ordained to the priesthood. 

Maybe they have had it all along.

Plural marriage, the priesthood, and exaltation - Page 14 - General Discussions - Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board

 

[MacGyver]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Even though we may not enjoy going out, but know that we are needed we can fake it till we make it. And maybe the way we get it done is if we are held somewhat accountable.

Yes, people need to be pushed and held accountable. Human nature is not to go out of our comfort zones. For many people reaching out and serving others, especially those we barely know or don't know at all, is very uncomfortable and you need someone to push you to do it, for your own good and the good of those you reach out to and serve. 

Take that push and accountability away and most people won't get out of their comfort zones. 

[MacGyver]

3 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

Maybe they have had it all along.

Plural marriage, the priesthood, and exaltation - Page 14 - General Discussions - Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board

 

No, I don't think so. 

The endowment doesn't actually confer any priesthood authority on men or women. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by MacGyver

[Olmec Donald]

2 hours ago, MacGyver said:

No, I don't think so. 

The endowment doesn't actually confer any priesthood authority on men or women. 

You might want to read the post I linked to again, because that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that the endowment ceremony is filled with acts which are priesthood ordinances, or otherwise rely on or call upon or exercise or demonstrate or lay claim to priesthood.  Performance of these acts would be inappropriate for anyone who is not a priesthood holder (which is why the men must be Melchizedek Priesthood holders).  Since we cannot point to a ceremony wherein women are given priesthood, the implication is that they already have it.  And I cite a modern scriptural precedent for priesthood by birthright.

I don't object to you disagreeing, but I don't want what I wrote to be mis-characterized.  

Edited January 20, 2022 by Olmec Donald

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

You might want to read it again, because that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that the endowment ceremony is filled acts which are priesthood ordinances, or otherwise rely on or call upon or exercise or demonstrate priesthood.  Performance of these acts would be inappropriate for anyone who is not a priesthood holder.  Since we cannot point to a ceremony wherein women are given the priesthood, the implication is that they already have it.  And I cite a modern scriptural precedent for priesthood by birthright.

I don't object to you disagreeing, but I don't want what I wrote to be mis-characterized.  

And some apostles in Gen Conf would agree with you.

[Olmec Donald]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

And some apostles in Gen Conf would agree with you.

^^^like^^^

Really??  I'd be very interested in knowing more.  I think @mfbukowski came to a similar conclusion via his own line of thinking.  

Edited January 20, 2022 by Olmec Donald

[sunstoned]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

Falsely accusing people of lying isn't cool dude. And the fact that you have to stoop to this is very telling. 

Sure when the new program was rolled out it it was claimed that we were going to do more now, not less. But what is the reality of what is actually happening and what are we actually being asked to do from our leaders? And what we are being held accountable for? There is no more expectation to even check in with our families monthly or teach them in their homes. Sure we can still do these things and it's not discouraged, but we are no longer expected to do this. Like I said, in my ward the drop off has been staggering since the change to ministering and then COVID. I am literally not being asked to do anything for my families and no one checks up on me. This isn't just in this past quarter, we're talking two years or more. I have never in all of my adult life gone more than a few months without having to report my efforts and give an update on the status of my families. Then the switch to ministering happens and the rest is history.

Everything Elder Holland said about alternatives to actual monthly in home visits were already being done. Nothing was new there. All that is new is that we are no longer expected to visit or make meaningful contact monthly and that the frequency of contact isn't tracked in any meaningful way. Which means the standard has actually been lowered, even if we are told that it has been raised. 

Our family use to get regular HT and VT visits.  Since the change, not so much.  One visit in two years.

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

^^^like^^^

Really??  I'd be very interested in knowing more.  I think @mfbukowski came to a similar conclusion via his own line of thinking.  

To me, Pres Nelson was portraying the same thing, or pretty darn close. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/president-nelson-explains-priesthood-power-and-covenants-at-womens-session?lang=eng

[MacGyver]

2 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Our family use to get regular HT and VT visits.  Since the change, not so much.  One visit in two years.

Sounds about right. 

[Rain]

10 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Yes, people need to be pushed and held accountable. Human nature is not to go out of our comfort zones. For many people reaching out and serving others, especially those we barely know or don't know at all, is very uncomfortable and you need someone to push you to do it, for your own good and the good of those you reach out to and serve. 

Take that push and accountability away and most people won't get out of their comfort zones. 

Yep, many people won't. 

 But I don't think we become like God by being pushed.  We become like him when we decide we don't need to be pushed by other people and choose the things that will make us more like him. The Spirit whispers and we answer the call to get out of our comfort zones when needed.  

If most have to be pushed all their lives by leaders then we really have been doing it wrong and have crippled people in learning to take responsibility on their own and have been remiss in teaching them how to love others.

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Rain

[Olmec Donald]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

To me, Pres Nelson was portraying the same thing, or pretty darn close. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/president-nelson-explains-priesthood-power-and-covenants-at-womens-session?lang=eng

WOW.  This is amazing to me:

"“How I yearn for you to understand that the restoration of the priesthood is just as relevant to you as a woman as it is to any man..."  It’s a process, however, that is not spelled out in any manual. “The Holy Ghost will be your personal tutor as you seek to understand what the Lord would have you know and do,” he said. “This process is neither quick nor easy, but it is spiritually invigorating."" [emphasis Donald's]

It sounds to me like the Holy Spirit is to be YOUR PERSONAL TUTOR when it comes to YOUR priestesshood.  No lesson manuals, no classes, no earthly instructor.  You have a direct line, and a green light from President Nelson to follow what the Holy Spirit reveals to you.

WOW.

THANK YOU, Tacenda!!

Edited January 20, 2022 by Olmec Donald

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

To me, Pres Nelson was portraying the same thing, or pretty darn close. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/president-nelson-explains-priesthood-power-and-covenants-at-womens-session?lang=eng

Indeed, but golly, how unpopular can one be, then to actually agree with President Nelson?  From your link, 

Pres Nelson Article:

"President Nelson also clarified additional points with respect to women and the priesthood. 

“When you are set apart to serve in a calling under the direction of one who holds priesthood keys—such as your bishop or stake president—you are given priesthood authority to function in that calling.

“Similarly, in the holy temple, you are authorized to perform and officiate in priesthood ordinances every time you attend. Your temple endowment prepares you to do so.”

Righteous, endowed Latter-day Saint women speak and teach with power and authority from God, he said. “Whether by exhortation or conversation, we need your voice teaching the doctrine of Christ. We need your input in family, ward, and stake councils. Your participation is essential and never ornamental.”

MFB:

I have done priesthood ordinations.

I have participated in setting sisters apart to perform temple ordinances.

One is an ordination, and the other is a setting apart. Both involve conveying authority to perform ordinances

All authority for all ordinances come from the same place, from the Savior delegated to the prophet, then to others down the line of authority delegating, eventually the authority to those selected "as was Aaron"

Show me the practical difference.

There IS no difference except the word "ordain".

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Raingirl]

4 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Our family use to get regular HT and VT visits.  Since the change, not so much.  One visit in two years.

I never got regular visits of any kind since I became a member ten years ago. Less than half a dozen of each kind in all that time.  And all the while members were bragging about how they were oh so busy and couldn’t possibly take time to reach out. It was like a badge of honor. 
 

I went on my own first visits to my assigned sisters without having ever received a visit. 

Since the change, there’s been not one single contact of any kind, much less an actual visit.  And lots of rejoicing from members about not having to visit anymore. Ironic, since they weren’t doing it anyway. 

[MacGyver]

9 hours ago, Rain said:

Yep, many people won't. 

 But I don't think we become like God by being pushed.  We become like him when we decide we don't need to be pushed by other people and choose the things that will make us more like him. The Spirit whispers and we answer the call to get out of our comfort zones when needed.  

If most have to be pushed all theirs lives by leaders then we really have been doing it wrong and have crippled people in learning to take responsibility on their own and have been remiss in teaching them how to love others.

 

I don't buy this.

How was expecting people to visit their assigned families monthly and to truly love and serve them crippling their ability to take responsibility and love others?

The drop off in ministering since the switch has been dramatic. Less people are being reached out to and ministered to than before. How is this better?

 

[MacGyver]

4 hours ago, Raingirl said:

I never got regular visits of any kind since I became a member ten years ago. Less than half a dozen of each kind in all that time.  And all the while members were bragging about how they were oh so busy and couldn’t possibly take time to reach out. It was like a badge of honor. 
 

I went on my own first visits to my assigned sisters without having ever received a visit. 

Since the change, there’s been not one single contact of any kind, much less an actual visit.  And lots of rejoicing from members about not having to visit anymore. Ironic, since they weren’t doing it anyway. 

I think this is a pretty typical experience in the church unfortunately.

Ministering was a real struggle before the removal of the expectation to visit and reach out monthly and any accountability. Once the expectation to visit and all accountability to do so was removed people neglected their duties even more, which is exactly what one would expect. 

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Raingirl said:

I never got regular visits of any kind since I became a member ten years ago. Less than half a dozen of each kind in all that time.  And all the while members were bragging about how they were oh so busy and couldn’t possibly take time to reach out. It was like a badge of honor. 
 

I went on my own first visits to my assigned sisters without having ever received a visit. 

Since the change, there’s been not one single contact of any kind, much less an actual visit.  And lots of rejoicing from members about not having to visit anymore. Ironic, since they weren’t doing it anyway. 

My heart goes out to you. Early on in my life I saw visiting teachers/home teachers visit my parents. My dad was inactive, mostly because of severe back pain and couldn't hack the hard bench, in an older church we went to. But he tried to take my mom on occasion so she wouldn't be alone. And therefore he had a fantastic home teacher that cared so much. And my mom had some good ladies visit her. Then after marrying I remember having excellent visiting teachers. It gave me a testimony of the program. And I loved going visiting teaching and my partners. It's bringing tears to my eyes as I speak. I even ran into a former sister that was younger when I visited her and she was a single mom, and she told me I was her favorite visiting teacher. That meant so much to me, I'm pretty insecure about myself and often don't feel people like me. 

In the last 15 or so years, it's all changed. And it might be myself. But it was tough even getting to visit in the homes of the sisters I visit taught. And even a return phone call. Then it became a drop off thing since I couldn't get to speak or see the particular sisters. And then my partner couldn't be bothered to go. And then my visiting teachers were my next door neighbors and they both did drop offs. It became where I felt bad that they spent so much money where all I needed was to have some time with them to hang out. But they were both busy ladies. 

Then I moved to this new ward and it seemed I never got a visit and got a phone call once. And then never heard from her again. And then we had wonderful home teachers but they moved to Boston. He taught at the Ensign college, formally the LDS Business College. He was the institute teacher and was aware of my faith crisis, and wanted me to ask anything I needed about my issues. But I didn't care to do that (I get that here, lol) I was just glad to be with he and his wonderful wife. We had some great visits. And then they gave us a young couple with a young family and it was back to drop offs by her husband so I couldn't feel good about them spending the money. So I just took my husband and I off the whole thing. Probably shouldn't have maybe I'll think about going back. It's just that I think I'm a doubt germ in the eyes of the bishop. He's aware of my situation because I told him first thing, in case he needed to know and I offered my assistance as being a Compassionate Service helper. But that was a dead end as well and I wasn't asked to do anything but take dinner once, and make handouts. Oh well, I'm starting to think I may be the problem. 

Sorry so long...hope I didn't take valuable time away Raingirl. And I hope your ministering people get inspired to do a better job. 

[bluebell]

34 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

I think this is a pretty typical experience in the church unfortunately.

Ministering was a real struggle before the removal of the expectation to visit and reach out monthly and any accountability. Once the expectation to visit and all accountability to do so was removed people neglected their duties even more, which is exactly what one would expect. 

It might be that what is a struggle for us here in North America is going better in other places. We tend to think that the church should revolve around our weaknesses and needs, but it doesn’t.

Or maybe it’s not working great anywhere and it’ll change back to the way it was. It’s just a program and programs change all the time when they aren’t working.

If they do change it back you can write them a letter telling them they should have expected it wouldn’t work. Maybe they’ll ask your opinion next time before they change stuff.