The Other Covid Thread

[pogi]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

The medical fact is natural immunity provided more robust protection against Delta so the people who already had covid should not have been fired from their job or forced to get vaccinated. 

Businesses should be allowed to mandate whatever they want.  There is no government mandate for businesses.  If SCOTUS did allow it, there were provisions for a worker to opt out of vaccination.  No one was forced.  The mandate for healthcare workers was upheld as constitutional by a very conservative court, so it is hard to argue that anyone is being "vilified" there. 

Besides that, can you show me that a primary series + a booster dose is less protective than natural immunity against Delta?  We also know that vaccination after natural immunity is even more protective, so why not require maximum possible protection for the workplace?  

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

*I feel like you are arguing against a strawman. 
A strawman is a fallacious argument that distorts an opposing stance in order to make it easier to attack. Essentially, the person using the strawman pretends to attack their opponent's stance, while in reality they are actually attacking a distorted version of that stance, which their opponent doesn't necessarily support.

You weren't very clear in your post.  It triggered memories of arguments that herd immunity from natural infection is better than immunity from vaccination. 

 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Robert J Anderson said:

I don't know if we can say how much the vaccines protect.  

Go walk into any hospital and see for yourself.

2 hours ago, Robert J Anderson said:

They seem to have gotten progressively worse at doing the job promised as new variants have come on.   I'm vaccinated and still got omicron.  I don't know how much they will do against the next variant seeing how they haven't done that well against omicron.  Perhaps, the next iteration of the vaccine will be better?

They don't get worse at doing their job, they work great against the bugs they were created for.  This is a different bug that evades even natural immunity. Are you also suggesting then that natural immunity somehow got "worse at doing its job". The idea is nonsense. 

In fact, a primary series and booster dose is more effective than natural immunity alone against Omicron...so, there's that. 

The next iteration of the vaccine will be better at protecting against the current strain.  Anyone that knows anything about coronaviruses is that they are experts at evolving to evade immunity. No vaccine...or natural immunity...will provide immunity from all evolving strains.  Booster doses designed to protect against the current threat will continue to be the best protection and better option over natural immunity...which can't evolve like a vaccine can. 

 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, T-Shirt said:

Many had Covid long before the vaccine was available.  Yet these people were ignored by government and treated like garbage if they chose not to be vaccinated.  Many lost jobs.

Natural immunity didn't last very long, so vaccination after infection was and is still indicated.  I can't tell you how many hundreds of breakthrough infections I have dealt with over the last couple years because they thought natural immunity would protect them from repeat infection.  Oops.   They went around spreading the disease like crazy because they thought "it couldn't be Covid...I already had it!"

[bsjkki]

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

Besides that, can you show me that a primary series + a booster dose is less protective than natural immunity against Delta?

We don't know about Delta but we do know primary series + booster is not helping prevent infection with Omicron.

 

22 minutes ago, pogi said:

We also know that vaccination after natural immunity is even more protective, so why not require maximum possible protection for the workplace?  

In this case you are requiring those who recovered take the vaccination (not without risk) and be more immune than those who only take the vaccine. Yes, natural immunity wanes. So does the vaccine. And the 4th does in Israel was shown not to be a benefit against Omicron. A new study out today shows the booster did not prevent infection. So, all these work place mandates against a variant that is now mostly gone, is moot. https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#variant-proportions  We are now at 99% Omicron.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-study-shows-4th-shot-covid-19-vaccine-not-able-block-omicron-2022-01-17/

"Yet, this is probably not enough for the Omicron," she told reporters. "We know by now that the level of antibodies needed to protect and not to got infected from Omicron is probably too high for the vaccine, even if it's a good vaccine."

Boosters did not stop infection. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-19/mrna-boosters-don-t-block-omicron-south-african-study-shows

"Booster shots with messenger RNA vaccines such as those made by Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech SE failed to block omicron in a study of some of the first documented breakthrough cases caused by the highly contagious variant.

Seven German visitors to Cape Town experienced symptomatic Covid-19 infections between late November and early December despite being boosted, the researchers, whose investigation was authorized by the University of Cape Town and Stellenbosch University, said in findings published Tuesday in The Lancet."

The UK is following the science and dropping vaccine passports and covid mitigations. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-60047438

 

[pogi]

51 minutes ago, rongo said:

(30- 40% of the workforce, by some counts) 

They need to fire whoever is reporting that.  

Do you really think that a higher percentage of health care workers are choosing not to be vaccinated than the general population?  76% of US population has already received at least the first dose.  That means only 24% have completely refused vaccination. 

https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/

What are we really seeing in hospitals?

 

Quote

 

Advocate Aurora Health has terminated 440 employees who were not vaccinated for COVID-19. These employees, half of whom worked part time, represent less than 1% of the system's roughly 75,000 workers.

Albany Med has reportedly suspended 204 of its more than 11,000 employees as of Sept. 28. They have a week to comply before facing termination.

Baystate Health suspended 145 workers who missed an Oct. 1 deadline and ultimately fired 90 who remained noncompliant by a secondary Oct. 15 deadline. It employs nearly 12,000 people.

Beaumont Health has seen 70 vaccine-related resignations and has another 370 suspended employees who missed an Oct. 18 vaccination deadline, the system said. The suspended staff have until Nov. 16 to enter compliance before being terminated. Beaumont Health employs about 33,000 people, roughly 2,300 of whom the system said were granted an exemption to the vaccination mandate.

Centra Health lost 36 caregivers to its vaccination requirement. Five were terminated while 31 resigned voluntarily. The organization told press that the departures account for less than a percent of its total workforce and do not impact its staffing.

Central Maine Healthcare has seen 84 resignations and has 250 employees with no vaccination records as of Oct. 11. The provider said it will be temporarily suspending some services and has been in contact with the governor's office for support. The state's COVID-19 vaccination mandate for healthcare staff goes into effect at the end of October.

CHI Memorial said that less than 1% of its roughly 4,600 employees had resigned due to the vaccine requirement as of three days before it took effect. 

ChristianaCare President and CEO Janice Nevin, M.D., wrote in a Sept. 27 blog post that the system's vaccination policy resulted in the loss of approximately 150 employees, the equivalent of fewer than 90 full-time employees. Fewer than 48 full-time equivalents provided direct patient care and fewer than 12 full-time equivalents were nurses. Nevin also noted that ChristianaCare, which employed 13,412 during 2020, had also hired more than 200 caregivers during the last month alone.

CoxHealth CEO and President Steve Edwards tweeted that 64 of his company's 12,500 employees (0.51%) chose not to be vaccinated and were discharged. 

Crouse Hospital terminated 45 employees who did not meet the state's COVID-19 vaccine requirement. It employs roughly 3,100 people.

Esperanza Health Centers, a five-clinic network of community health centers in Chicago, reportedly lost two of its 311 employees. Notably, Esperanza did not allow for religious exemptions.

Henry Ford Health System reported on Oct. 5 that about 400 employees had voluntarily resigned due to the vaccination requirement, representing about 1% of the system's total workforce. Another 1,900, about 6%, had received medical or religious exemptions. The Detroit-based provider also noted that new hires "are already offsetting those team members who resigned." 

Hospital for Special Surgery in New York lost 18 out of 5,000 employees to vaccine resignations and terminations.

Houston Methodist, the first to announce a vaccine mandate, said it had 153 resignations or terminations among its roughly 26,000-person workforce.

Indiana University Health had 125 of its 35,800 employees resign from their jobs due to the vaccine requirement. A spokesperson told Fierce Healthcare on Sept. 23 that many were part-time workers and that the departures were the equivalent of 61 full-time employees.

Inova Health dropped 89 of its 20,000-person workforce due to noncompliance with its Sept.1 vaccination requirement. 

Kaiser Permanente announced that "just over" 2,200 employees from its nationwide workforce of roughly 240,000 had not met its vaccine requirement and were placed on administrative leave as of Oct. 4. The nonprofit said that the tally is declining daily, as suspended employees have until Dec. 1 to enter compliance and return to work.

Lewis County Health System said it has seen 30 resignations as of Sept. 11 in the wake of announcing its vaccine mandate and as a result has been forced to pause maternal health services. At that time, 165 of the provider’s unvaccinated staff had not yet indicated whether they would comply or leave the single-hospital system. Lewis County Health System employs about 650 people and will see its mandate go into effect Sept. 27.

Maimonides Medical Center said it had 35 terminations tied to vaccination requirements. It employee 6,500, an additional 100 of which were claiming religious exemption as of mid-October.

MaineHealth representative Caroline Cornish told Fierce Healthcare that 58 out of its team of 23,000 had resigned and cited the vaccination requirement among their reasons, as of Sept. 24.

Mayo Clinic reportedly fired 700 employees on Jan. 4 who did not comply with its COVID-19 vaccination policy. This represents just under 1% of Mayo Clinic's total of 73,000 employees. The system said that those who were let go will be able to reapply for job openings should they receive vaccines in the future. 

Med Center Health said it had fired 180 employees from its workforce of roughly 3,800 who had not been vaccinated by Sept. 1. It also highlighted the hiring of 178 vaccinated employees who would begin within a week of the firings.

Medical University of South Carolina Health fired five employees who had not met its June 30 vaccination or exemption deadline. It employs more than 17,000 people.

Mercy announced that it terminated about 2% of its 40,000-person workforce—roughly 800 people. These firings came after a 28-day unpaid suspension period for those who were not in compliance with the policy announced in July.

MetroHealth reportedly terminated four of its nearly 7,800 employees due to its vaccine mandate. Another 13 decided to retire or leave the organization. 

Mohawk Valley Health System announced on Sept. 28 that New York's mandate led 180 employees, about 5% of the workforce, to separate from the system. This has increased its vacancy rate from 13.7% to 17.5%. The system also noted that other unvaccinated employees have been placed on unpaid leave and have until Oct. 9 to receive a vaccine and return to their position. Hospital services are still operating at both of the system's campuses, although service delays and other limitations will be likely going forward.

Mount Sinai Health System has reportedly lost 1% of its 42,000-person workforce who chose not to be vaccinated. 

NYC Health + Hospitals has about 2,500 unvaccinated workers, about 5% of its 43,000 staff, that has not met the state's vaccination requirement. 

NewYork-Presbyterian had "fewer than 250" team members who did not comply with a Sept. 22 vaccination mandate and "no longer work" at the organization, according to a statement provided to Fierce Healthcare. The system said it has achieved more than 99% compliance among its 48,000 employees and affiliated doctors and will see no interruptions in care due to the mandate.

Northern Light Health representative Karen Cashman told Fierce Healthcare that, as of Sept. 24, 89 employees had left the system due to its COVID-19 vaccine mandate. As of a Sept. 15 news conference, 91% of the system’s more than 12,000 employees had been vaccinated.

Northwell Health has reportedly fired about 1,400 one week after New York's vaccine mandate went into effect. This also includes at least two dozen employees at the manager level or above that did not receive COVID-19 vaccines by a prior internal deadline. It employed more than 76,000 workers.

Novant Health has fired more than 175 employees who were not compliant with its COVID-19 vaccination requirement. The system said Sept. 21 that it had initially suspended about 375 of its more than 35,000 total employees due to vaccination noncompliance. Nearly 200 of those employees became compliant during the five-day suspension period and avoided termination.

NYU Langone has reportedly terminated 75 employees out of its 40,000-person staff. 

Ochsner Health announced in early December that roughly 280 employees out of its nearly 30,000-person workforce were leaving the organization due to its vaccination policy. The Louisiana-based system said that about 180 of those are pro re nata employees who were working on an as-needed basis. 

Olean General Hospital said it had seen 11 resignations ahead of New York’s Sept. 27 deadline for a first dose. As of Sept. 14, more than 250 of its 840 employees had not been vaccinated.

Richmond University Medical Center had a dozen resignations but did not disclose other terminations. It employs about 2,000 people.

Riverside Healthcare gave 40 employees who were not in compliance with its vaccination requirement after a two-week suspension the axe. It employs about 2,900 people. 

RWJBarnabas Health has terminated 118 employees who did not meet its Oct. 15 vaccination deadline, with the remaining 99.7% of its 35,000-person workforce either receiving the vaccination or an exemption. The system had previously announced back in July the firing of six employees at the supervisor level who had not complied with a requirement for upper staff to be vaccinated by June 30. 

Rush University Medical Center has nearly 100 employees in jeopardy of termination due to vaccination requirement noncompliance, as of an Oct. 20 report.

Samaritan Medical Center in New York said it terminated 28 employees who did not comply with the state's vaccine requirements after a two-week suspension. It employs over 2,000 people.

Shriners Hospital for Children in Louisiana reportedly fired over a dozen employees who chose not to be vaccinated before a Dec. 6 deadline. 

Southcoast Health, a Massachusetts-based system, fired 216 medical workers who did not comply with its vaccine mandate, the Herald News reports. Southcoast employees roughly 7,500 people. 

Southern Illinois Healthcare let go of 220 people who did not meet its vaccination requirement. It employs more than 3,700 according to its website.

St. Claire Regional Medical Center said it had fired 23 staff who had refused vaccination. A spokesperson reportedly said these employees were a combination of full-time, part-time and pro re nata employees and represented “less than 1%" of its total workforce.

St. Joseph's Health in Syracuse fired 78 of its  3,810 employees who did not meet New York's statewide vaccination deadline. They were among 122 who were suspended and given until Oct. 8 to receive a vaccine or be fired. 

St. Luke's University Health Network said that 68 full-time employees and 87 part-time or per diem employees had decided against vaccination and resigned as of its Sept. 25 deadline. Additionally, 668 had received a medical exemption, religious exemption or a temporary deferral and will undergo weekly testing. St. Luke's employs about 17,000 people.

St. Peter's Health Partners has suspended 322 unvaccinated employees out of its 11,000-plus workforce, as of Sept. 28. Those employees have until Oct. 8 to become compliant. 

Sturdy Memorial Hospital, in Massachusetts, reportedly fired 33 employees who did not meet its vaccination mandate. This represents about 1.6% of its 2,044-person workforce. 

Tidelands Health had just a single employee out of 2,010 who did not comply with its mandate and chose to resign.

Three Rivers Hospital, a rural facility in Eastern Washington, said that it let go of six out of its 129 employees, all of whom were per diem staff. 

Truman Medical Centers/University Health saw 39 resignations among its workforce of roughly 5,000 due to a COVID-19 vaccination mandate.

UCHealth said that 119 out of its 26,500-person work did not receive COVID-19 vaccine or an exemption by the Colorado system's Oct. 1 deadline. A spokesperson said that those employees are welcome to reapply for their positions should they later receive the vaccine.

UMass Memorial Health let roughly 200 employees go after they missed a Dec. 1 vaccination deadline. The system employs about 15,000 people.

UNC Health has already seen 70 of its roughly 30,000 workers resign over a COVID-19 vaccination mandate originally scheduled for Sept. 21 but now delayed to Nov. 2. About 900 were still unvaccinated as of late September.

University of Vermont Health Network reported Sept. 28 that it had 30 mandate-related departures across three of its facilities—16 resignations at Alice Hyde Medical Center, 12 terminations at Champlain Valley Physicians Hospital and two resignations at Elizabethtown Community Hospital. These losses have compounded with a rash of non-vaccine-related resignations and hour reductions have led some of the system's hospitals to recruit travel nurses and postpone inpatient surgical procedures for at least one week. 

Upstate University Hospital suspended or terminated 113 employees who did not meet New York's statewide deadline, as of a Sept. 30 report. Some of those workers will be able to return to their jobs if they receive a vaccine. The Syracuse provider employs more than 6,600 people.

Valley Health has terminated 72 workers who were unvaccinated by its Sept. 21 final deadline. It employs 6,300 staff.

Virtua Health said it had 120 of its 14,000 employees choose to resign over the five-hospital system's vaccine requirement. The South Jersey provider said that 98% of its remaining workforce is vaccinated, with the remainder receiving exemptions. 

Yale New Haven Health System saw 94 departures among the 225 employees who had been suspended over its vaccination requirement. The Connecticut system employs more than 28,000 people, more than 700 of whom were granted exemptions and will see weekly testing.

https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/hospitals/how-many-employees-have-hospitals-lost-to-vaccine-mandates-numbers-so-far

 

Keep in mind, these extremely low numbers include all hospital staff (cleaning staff, office staff, IT staff, etc, etc.)  The number of healthcare workers who actually give direct care to Covid patients is probably far less than 1%.  Any shortage to care for Covid patients is not really affected by this mandate - it is more affected by nurses quoting due to burnout from caring for the unvaccinated.  

 

[pogi]

28 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

we do know primary series + booster is not helping prevent infection with Omicron.

It is working better than anything else, including natural immunity.  Especially if we are considering protection from severe disease/death.  It seems like that would be important for employers to protect against.

Quote

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/pfizer-says-booster-dose-vaccine-protects-omicron-variant-rcna7970

https://www.prevention.com/health/health-conditions/a38461092/omicron-covid-variant-vaccine-booster-efficacy/

But because omicron has a higher transmissibility rate than previous strains, higher levels of antibodies are needed to prevent infection. Immunity gained via only two vaccines or infection to earlier COVID variants (like delta or alpha) won't necessarily prevent omicron infection, he said, adding that regardless of whether you've been previously infected or double-vaccinated, a booster is your best defense against reinfection.

https://www.dw.com/en/omicron-is-natural-immunity-better-than-a-vaccine/a-60425426

The study highlights the importance of a third vaccine dose (booster dose) in inducing robust neutralizing titers against the Omicron variant. Moreover, the study reveals that immunity induced by natural SARS-CoV-2 infection or two-dose COVID-19 vaccination is insufficient to protect against the Omicron variant. Overall, the highest benefit of vaccination has been observed among individuals with prior infection. 

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20220104/Efficacy-of-antibodies-induced-by-natural-infection-vaccination-or-both-against-SARS-CoV-2-Omicron-and-Beta-variants.aspx

 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by pogi

[pogi]

34 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

In this case you are requiring those who recovered take the vaccination (not without risk) and be more immune than those who only take the vaccine.

Except that we aren't dealing with Delta anymore and full vaccination is more effective than natural immunity against Omicron.  You also have to consider the next strain that may come down the line.  Keep in mind that we are dealing with a coronavirus here that has potential to become extremely deadly with a little tweak in mutation (think SARS and MERSA) AND virulent AND evade natural immunity.   If such a strain is in the pipes, these vaccine mandates will be critical.   We shouldn't be so short sighted with things.  

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Ninety per cent of the eligible population, yes. That's 2+ doses in those age 12+, which gives an overall vaccination rate of just under 80 percent.

For multiple reasons (including that I work for a politician), I have no interest in disclosing my location, but I just checked, and it's less than half of the average cost of an ICU day in America, to give you some sense.

In my subnational jurisdiction, only 1.4 per cent of those age 12+ are now unvaccinated, yet according to figures released last night, this tiny percentage currently accounts for 80 per cent of all Covid patients in our ICUs. Those aren't very good odds for those making that choice.

Just out of curiosity? What is age breakdown of the ICU COVID patients. Are the 4 out of 5 unvaccinated older or younger than the 1 out of 5 that are unvaccinated?

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

20 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Just out of curiosity? What is age breakdown of the ICU COVID patients.

No clue. Our local government hasn’t been great with data. We have had three deaths so far this week. One was vaccinated and in his 90s. The other two were unvaccinated and both in their 50s. Assuming they were all three in ICU—which we don’t know—that would suggest a possible answer. 

[bsjkki]

I thought this article sums up where we are right now. 
 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-omicron-upended-what-we-thought-we-knew-about-natural-immunity/

[Calm]

Quote

Beyond that, the picture is murky. For example, we know milder infections have, with past strains, produced less effective immunity. If a hallmark of omicron is milder infections — and that’s the main reason why there’s so much chatter that it might just be better to get this variant and get some natural immunity — how much immunity can anyone really expect to come out of those mild infections with? “We’re going to know for sure in a few weeks because a ton of preprint is coming out about it, but I don’t know the answer today,” Moore said. It’s information journalists can come back and update you on later, but it makes informed speculation hard now.

Immunity to already here variants….can anything actually be said about future possible variations?

Edited January 20, 2022 by Calm

[rongo]

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/prior-covid-infection-more-protective-than-vaccination-during-delta-surge-us-2022-01-19/?fbclid=IwAR3pyV05iqSZAXBh8YNSVe5fPjfyh0DkUl56GS0yZOI0FpbhYQNtnETjEX0

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

Czech singer dies after catching Covid intentionally to obtain 'natural immunity'.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/prior-covid-infection-more-protective-than-vaccination-during-delta-surge-us-2022-01-19/?

 

Quote

People who had previously been infected with COVID-19 were better protected against the Delta variant than those who were vaccinated alone, suggesting that natural immunity was a more potent shield than vaccines against that variant, California and New York health officials reported on Wednesday.

Protection against Delta was highest, however, among people who were both vaccinated and had survived a previous COVID infection, and lowest among those who had never been infected or vaccinated, the study found.

It did not include boosters though, so not up to date on the full benefit a vaccine can give. Also in calculating overall benefit, the conclusion was 

Quote

Nevertheless, vaccination remains the safest strategy against COVID-19, according to the report published in U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report.

Quote

But acquiring immunity through natural infection carries significant risks. According to the study, by November 30, 2021, roughly 130,781 residents of California and New York had died from COVID-19.

 

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

It did not include boosters though, so not up to date on the full benefit a vaccine can give. Also in calculating overall benefit, the conclusion was 

 

Overall conclusion is basically, don’t go get covid on purpose. Vaccination is the ‘safest’ way to immunity. It does not change the fact natural immunity provided robust protection against Delta and outperformed the vaccines. 
 

Many of the reports I’ve read showed vaccine immunity fading after 10 weeks. That means my booster shot is now much less effective (especially with Omicron) and experts agree, boosters every 4 months would not be a good thing for the immune system. 4th shot in Israel did not protect against Omicron anyway. 

*a deeper dive into the numbers from the study. https://beckernews.com/bombshell-cdc-admits-natural-immunity-superior-to-vaccinated-immunity-alone-at-preventing-covid-hospitalizations-deaths-43799/

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by bsjkki

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Overall conclusion is basically, don’t go get covid on purpose. Vaccination is the ‘safest’ way to immunity. It does not change the fact natural immunity provided robust protection against Delta and outperformed the vaccines. 

Agreed with the added time limit to better of before they started using boosters.

Delta was in the US at least by May 21.  Boosters started being given in Sept 21.  So 4 months out of 9 perhaps?  Given it takes awhile for the booster to build up and not everyone got them at once, while vaccines outperformed for the previous months with the alpha and other variants (that were still present, if not dominant for much of the delta wave), my guess is at least for half of delta’s existence so far natural immunity was better than one or two dose vaccines, but not as good as the combo.  But it was still best to get a vaccine even if one had natural immunity.

Those with vaccines couldn’t and shouldn’t have intentionally tried to get infected to boost their partial immunity higher.  But those with natural partial immunity could easily add to the strength of their immunity by getting a vaccine and then boosters.

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

I hit my freebie limit so I can’t go back in to check, but iirc at the end of the article it said something about the study not measuring severity…but not sure if that referred to the first infection of Covid for the naturally immune or if it meant they just measured infection and not severity of illness if either groups got infected/reinfected…

[bsjkki]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

I hit my freebie limit so I can’t go back in to check, but iirc at the end of the article it said something about the study not measuring severity…but not sure if that referred to the first infection of Covid for the naturally immune or if it meant they just measured infection and not severity of illness if either groups got infected/reinfected…

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/pdfs/mm7104e1-H.pdf

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm

Study plus cdc write up of study.

[bsjkki]

https://www.andrewbostom.org/2022/01/december-2021-rhode-island-department-of-health-data-confirm-prior-covid-19-infection-naturally-acquired-immunity-regardless-of-vaccination-status-confers-an-28-fold-lower-risk-for-covid-19-mortali/
 

 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

It did not include boosters though, so not up to date on the full benefit a vaccine can give. Also in calculating overall benefit, the conclusion was 

 

Plus, Delta is history, so his link is kind of moot.  Vaccine with booster is more effective against Omicron than natural immunity from previous infection. 

[bsjkki]

20 minutes ago, pogi said:

  Vaccine with booster is more effective against Omicron than natural immunity from previous infection. 

CFR. From all I’ve read, it is acknowledged we don’t know this. Too early. 
 

From the 538 article previously posted. 
 

Edited January 20, 2022 by bsjkki

[pogi]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

CFR. From all I’ve read, it is acknowledged we don’t know this. Too early. 
 

From the 538 article previously posted. 
 

I provided these links previously.  This is the best data that we have so far:

Quote

A study from South Africa, where Omicron was first detected, found that two doses of Pfizer provided 70% protection against severe COVID-19 and 33% protection against infection during the wave of Omicron infections in the country; people who previously had COVID-19 had a “significantly higher” likelihood of breakthrough infections.

We do know that the boosters increase the overall immune response to SARS-CoV-2, and will provide the best protection...

https://www.prevention.com/health/health-conditions/a38461092/omicron-covid-variant-vaccine-booster-efficacy/

In regards to natural immunity being better against Delta, that is also not set in stone and may be age dependent.  The older and more vulnerable appear to be better protected by the vaccine than natural immunity.  That is important info as these are the people who need it the most!    See below:

Quote

One study published in late October 2021 by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found unvaccinated adults who tested positive three to six months earlier were five times more likely to test positive for the virus than vaccinated adults who hadn’t previously been infected.  

A study involving US war veterans, funded by the US Department of Veterans Affairs Office of Rural Health and still in the peer-review process, shows that among senior citizens, mRNA vaccines offered stronger protection against infection, hospitalization and death than prior COVID infections.  

But for participants under 65, the protection offered by vaccines was more or less the same as previous infection, the study found

The study, published in September, supports findings from a population-level Denmark study published in March, which was based on data collected during the second surge of the pandemic in late 2020 — before vaccines were widely available. Among younger people who had tested positive during the first wave, protection against repeat infection was around 80%. However among people aged 65 and older, immunity acquired through past infection was only around 47% effective.

Immunity gained via only two vaccines or infection to earlier COVID variants (like delta or alpha) won't necessarily prevent omicron infection, he said, adding that regardless of whether you've been previously infected or double-vaccinated, a booster is your best defense against reinfection.

The effectiveness of protection against omicron provided by "natural immunity" from other COVID variants may be as low as 19%, according to a study conducted by the Imperial College London COVID-19 response team in late December 2021. 

https://www.dw.com/en/omicron-is-natural-immunity-better-than-a-vaccine/a-60425426

Earlier preliminary lab results from vaccine manufacturers give weight to the results of these studies and real-world results:

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/pfizer-says-booster-dose-vaccine-protects-omicron-variant-rcna7970

Quote

A study to be published in the journal Nature has demonstrated that antibodies induced by two-dose coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) vaccination or natural infection exhibit very low neutralizing activity against the omicron variant of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). However, individuals immunized with three vaccine doses, or COVID-19 recovered patients with double or triple vaccination, exhibit considerable protection against the variant.

The study highlights the importance of a third vaccine dose (booster dose) in inducing robust neutralizing titers against the Omicron variant. Moreover, the study reveals that immunity induced by natural SARS-CoV-2 infection or two-dose COVID-19 vaccination is insufficient to protect against the Omicron variant. 

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20220104/Efficacy-of-antibodies-induced-by-natural-infection-vaccination-or-both-against-SARS-CoV-2-Omicron-and-Beta-variants.aspx

If you notice, 2 doses of vaccine (no booster even( gave 33% protection against Omicron infection in the South Africa study, and natural immunity only gave 19% protection in the dw.com article.  That is showing that even without a booster, vaccination is more effective. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by pogi

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Plus, Delta is history, so his link is kind of moot.  Vaccine with booster is more effective against Omicron than natural immunity from previous infection. 

I have had the vaccine plus the booster, then I got the COVID so now I am triple protected!!!

I'll let you all know when I get it again.

[bsjkki]

34 minutes ago, pogi said:

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

I provided these links previously.  This is the best data that we have so far:

I would argue we don’t have enough data to make conclusive statements . From your link. 
 

[bsjkki]

16 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I have had the vaccine plus the booster, then I got the COVID so now I am triple protected!!!

I'll let you all know when I get it again.

I know a lot of people in this boat.