dissatisfaction among Protestant clergy

[poptart]

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/nov/16/pulpit-panic-1-2-mainline-protestant-clerics-looki/

Thoughts on this? Thanks!

[rpn]

It is hard to be a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ right now.   There is so much division, particularly among those who resent/rebuke covid precautions and those who are gobsmacked at that.  And in Churches where what comes in the plate each week, pays pastors, there isn't enough for pastoring to be a full time occupation.   The world needs people of faith for sure, as much or more than ever.   But that isn't an easy full time gig, if it ever was.

[poptart]

2 hours ago, rpn said:

It is hard to be a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ right now.   There is so much division, particularly among those who resent/rebuke covid precautions and those who are gobsmacked at that.  And in Churches where what comes in the plate each week, pays pastors, there isn't enough for pastoring to be a full time occupation.   The world needs people of faith for sure, as much or more than ever.   But that isn't an easy full time gig, if it ever was.

Im starting to wonder just how Christian the USA used to be.   A Sunday School teacher I know said it best, as a people Americans have been more about Mammon than Christ.  It's always been hard but then again so is life.  Think of what Christ, God himself went through and it makes our lives look easy.  Then again, this is the USA, things always find ways of becoming commercial goods here somehow.  What gets me, you hear people complaining about how society is yet expect everyone else to fix it while they do nothing. 

Expression I heard long ago, when man rejects Christ's grace, he leaves man to ruin himself till he chooses to repent.  Fun fact, Protestantism is all about that, people her tend to get that wrong.  While people may argue about works vs faith, at the end of the day good works are still necessary, they are the fruit of a good. Christian life. 

Something I wonder about, do many of those who chose to treat Christianity as a commodity understand the consequences them and their children will face.  People take for granted how Christianity made this country possible, if that element of society does die, people aren't going to like what takes its place.  Guess we'll see.

Edited November 17, 2021 by poptart

[Robert F. Smith]

 

[poptart]

20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

Saved for later.  Ever heard of Alpha? 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

Alpha looks good.  Do you think that the LDS Church should go and do likewise?

[Stargazer]

On 11/17/2021 at 6:02 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

 

Very interesting. And very well spoken. But when he talks about heaven, he seems actually to be talking about the Millennium. Heaven, to him, is perfected living, immortally, on a perfected earth.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Very interesting. And very well spoken. But when he talks about heaven, he seems actually to be talking about the Millennium. Heaven, to him, is perfected living, immortally, on a perfected earth.

Yes, I thought so too.  However, he does seem to understand heaven as very embodied and real.  I can hear Orson Pratt saying something about the absurdities of immaterialism, and I can hear the Jews saying that Isaiah intended exactly that in 2:2-4 (NIV),

Quote

In the last days

the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
    as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
    and all nations will stream to it.

Many peoples will come and say,

“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
    to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
    so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
    the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
He will judge between the nations
    and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
    and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
    nor will they train for war anymore.

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Robert F. Smith

[poptart]

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Alpha looks good.  Do you think that the LDS Church should go and do likewise?

Why not?  I say go for it if it helps.  Thing is, why would you need to?  You have more than enough at your disposal to come up with something that works for your org structure.  Bring back ward luaus, I missed out on those.  I used to hear stories about those from mom, heard em again when we went to SLC to visit her old BYUH classmate.  Also, basketball, in ward functions, geez you guys have literally everything you need already, just find a way to market it and i'd think you would be golden.  BTW, even if you don't get a bunch of people to convert, the good will part alone would be great.  Look at St. Paul, during his ministry those he didn't get to convert were so impressed by the Christians that they would have nothing but good to say.  People forget, it was the Christians who took the nastiest of jobs, helped the poor and cared for the sick during outbreaks, even pagans who were kicked out by family when they caught whatever was going around were helped.  American Christians in general would be wise to remember that and act as their noble Christian ancestors did, would really help their image here.  I know in my line of work people love Latter Day Saints, you're always a pleasure to work with.  Your children care for your elders and visa versa, your missionaries are kind to everyone when they do show up to hospitals/nursing facilities and even in the small day to day interactions, anytime I see a pic of a temple I know I'm quite likely to have a good experience even if I'm just helping a patient get up or getting them a prn med.  You're the good guys, go with it.

Paul’s Usage of Isthmian Games as Illustration | Leon's Message Board (leonmauldin.blog)

[Bob Crockett]

And why trust anything the Washington Times says on this subject.  Known liar. 

[Ragerunner]

On 11/20/2021 at 3:27 AM, Bob Crockett said:

And why trust anything the Washington Times says on this subject.  Known liar. 

I was going to say the same thing. They have lied so much I am not sure they know how to post a truthful article.

[The Nehor]

On 11/16/2021 at 11:14 PM, poptart said:

Im starting to wonder just how Christian the USA used to be.   A Sunday School teacher I know said it best, as a people Americans have been more about Mammon than Christ.  It's always been hard but then again so is life.  Think of what Christ, God himself went through and it makes our lives look easy.  Then again, this is the USA, things always find ways of becoming commercial goods here somehow.  What gets me, you hear people complaining about how society is yet expect everyone else to fix it while they do nothing. 

Expression I heard long ago, when man rejects Christ's grace, he leaves man to ruin himself till he chooses to repent.  Fun fact, Protestantism is all about that, people her tend to get that wrong.  While people may argue about works vs faith, at the end of the day good works are still necessary, they are the fruit of a good. Christian life. 

Something I wonder about, do many of those who chose to treat Christianity as a commodity understand the consequences them and their children will face.  People take for granted how Christianity made this country possible, if that element of society does die, people aren't going to like what takes its place.  Guess we'll see.

The USA has always had a weird relationship with religion. Probably a side effect of taking in all the heretics that were too extreme even for the European Protestant movement.

There is a myth of Christianity being behind everything good in the US started by religious people and trying to ascribe American Protestantism to Deist founders.

[3DOP]

On 11/20/2021 at 2:27 AM, Bob Crockett said:

And why trust anything the Washington Times says on this subject.  Known liar. 

One doesn't have to "trust" that some individual or a news organization always tells the truth in order to have a meaningful discussion about what might be said.

For instance:

Rather than showing your disdain in an apparent attempt to thwart discussion, you could explain why the "known liar" would lie about "this subject" in particular. 

 

[Bob Crockett]

1 hour ago, 3DOP said:

One doesn't have to "trust" that some individual or a news organization always tells the truth in order to have a meaningful discussion about what might be said.

For instance:

Rather than showing your disdain in an apparent attempt to thwart discussion, you could explain why the "known liar" would lie about "this subject" in particular. 

 

Why isn't it obvious.  

[2BizE]

This sounds like a good barometer reading for religion in the United States.  I bet LDS leaders have similar feelings.  The stress of dealing with people during this pandemic is real. You have the sick to deal with as well as the squabbling of anti-vax mad hatters who want to kick against the pricks and those who want to comply and have faith in science and want to do their part to end this pandemic.  It is an immense struggle for leaders.

[poptart]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The USA has always had a weird relationship with religion. Probably a side effect of taking in all the heretics that were too extreme even for the European Protestant movement.

There is a myth of Christianity being behind everything good in the US started by religious people and trying to ascribe American Protestantism to Deist founders.

Oh I know, Europe sent us their trouble makers.  The early Protestant Reformation produced some not so nice people.  Think that was one of the few times Lutherans and Catholics got along back in the day, kicking them out.  It's interesting when you see how they've acted here over the centuries as well as the stuff they pull now.  That's one of the reasons why I started to like Joseph Smith, while I never felt anything either way the guy was trying to do right when he was checking out the various churches in his area.  Even then it was hard to find a solid congregation, with the 2nd great awakening in full swing all kinds of crazy stuff was going on, he had to see it, many others did.  What's really interesting for me is how all that played out post WWII.  A lot of people in the Baptist and Evangelical camp jumped on the post war boom bandwagon, you really saw it after Vietnam.  If you ever want an interesting read check this out.

Seminex - Wikipedia

The Rise and Fall of Martin Stephan - Leben

Martin Stephan (lutheranmuseum.com)

This is something a bit more from my world, this gave a lot of the other Protestant bodies a shock.  Needless to say, it's been non stop petty bickering/infighting since.  It's like I said to Rory when it came up, I identify as Lutheran but it's mostly political.   Lutheranism here really didn't get organized until later on, from the beginning it was a mess.  The Catholic church is awesome but here stateside i'm no fan of the politics on the conservative end.  At least with Lutherans here you can opt for the ELCA and just dodge most of the politics.  Times like this makes me love you guys, I know no ones perfect but geez the things your leadership has done the past few years with LGBTQ and social justice is just awesome.  Helps so many saints are outdoorsy and alcohol free.  Older I get more I despise alcohol culture here, at least as it is now.  

Edited November 22, 2021 by poptart

[Orthodox Christian]

It seems that many of those Protestant ministers are suffering from several things, but disillusionment might also be one of them. Churches have had to abandon absolutes in order to appear Liberal, politically correct in order to keep congregations. Things like the sanctity of marriage and life, Conservative views on homosexuality have had to move over in favour of divorce, same sex marriage, acceptance of homosexual practice etc. Many pastors who grew up with those Conservative Christian values, maybe just don't know where or how they fit in anymore. How can they preach on the Scriptures that have been swept away by a tide of wordliness, which is exactly what we are not called to be. I feel sorry for them.