Where did Joseph Smith get the idea that sealed children would always choose God eventually?

[bluebell]

I'm referring to these two quotes:

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.”

“When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother.”

Last night I was reading in 2 Nephi chapter 4 and verse five struck me because it didn't really make any sense.  In it Lehi declares (to the children of Laman) that if they were brought up in the way they should go that they would not depart from it.  That sounds good in theory but Lehi himself has first hand knowledge that it's not actually true, since he brought up Laman and Lemuel in the way that they should go and they very much departed from it.

Contemplating that verse led me to thinking about JS's similar teachings on the subject and now I'm wondering, where did JS get this idea from?  Do we know?  I've always wrestled with it because it seems to deny personal agency as well as choice and accountability.

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

You may have already seen this, but Elder Bednar attempted to address some of these questions a number of years ago:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2014/03/faithful-parents-and-wayward-children-sustaining-hope-while-overcoming-misunderstanding?lang=eng

 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, DispensatorMysteriorum said:

You may have already seen this, but Elder Bednar attempted to address some of these questions a number of years ago:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2014/03/faithful-parents-and-wayward-children-sustaining-hope-while-overcoming-misunderstanding?lang=eng

 

Thanks!  I'll read it.

[katherine the great]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

This article has some interesting thoughts on this topic:

https://juvenileinstructor.org/elder-bednar-has-it-right-joseph-smiths-august-13-1843-speech/

[mfbukowski]

There is no sense in worrying about it.  It is completely non verifiable- obviously- who knows what spirit now wandering, will or won't come back after 2000 years in the spirit world?

It is a blessing, a hope for things unseen.

Let's talk about how literal patriarchal blessings are instead!?

You won't find the mechanics of heaven in a textbook 

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm referring to these two quotes:

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.”

“When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother.”

Last night I was reading in 2 Nephi chapter 4 and verse five struck me because it didn't really make any sense.  In it Lehi declares (to the children of Laman) that if they were brought up in the way they should go that they would not depart from it.  That sounds good in theory but Lehi himself has first hand knowledge that it's not actually true, since he brought up Laman and Lemuel in the way that they should go and they very much departed from it.

Contemplating that verse led me to thinking about JS's similar teachings on the subject and now I'm wondering, where did JS get this idea from?  Do we know?  I've always wrestled with it because it seems to deny personal agency as well as choice and accountability.

Just because Laman and Lemuel chose the path of faithlessness and disobedience doesn’t necessarily mean that their children would have inevitably and unavoidably followed in their corrupt footsteps. Lehi, being the great prophet he was, may very well may have been given revelatory insight to understand the children of Laman and Lemuel were extraordinarily faithful and valiant in their pre-mortal lives, and that they would have continued faithful in mortality if it hadn’t been for the wickedness, spiritual blindness and manipulative unrighteous dominion of their parents.

In fact, by sending extraordinarily faithful spirit children into the families of Laman and Lemuel the Lord may have established a sacred corrective precedent that the Lamanites’ trajectory toward wickedness was actually perpetuated by many innocent victims who will ultimately receive great measures of mercy in the end. Just as there were extraordinary hidden spiritual giants among the Lamanites at the time of the mission of the sons of Mosiah, the children of Laman and Lemuel may very well have become spiritual giants themselves if it hadn’t been for exceedingly poor examples set by their their spirituality dead fathers.

Edited October 25, 2021 by teddyaware

[Vanguard]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm referring to these two quotes:

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.”

“When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother.”

Last night I was reading in 2 Nephi chapter 4 and verse five struck me because it didn't really make any sense.  In it Lehi declares (to the children of Laman) that if they were brought up in the way they should go that they would not depart from it.  That sounds good in theory but Lehi himself has first hand knowledge that it's not actually true, since he brought up Laman and Lemuel in the way that they should go and they very much departed from it.

Contemplating that verse led me to thinking about JS's similar teachings on the subject and now I'm wondering, where did JS get this idea from?  Do we know?  I've always wrestled with it because it seems to deny personal agency as well as choice and accountability.

It reminds me of President Kimball's similar declaration that if you have FHE faithfully, no parent will lose a wayward child in this way (or some such). Of course, this won't apply to me as a parent because my wife and I deliberately did not conduct FHE on May 15, 2011 so I guess we're out. ; ) JS's declaration specifies 'faithful' parents. Though we are sealed and active, our faith has faltered on a few occasions and so again, it looks like this promise won't apply to us either.

[Vanguard]

4 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Just because Laman and Lemuel chose the path of faithlessness and disobedience doesn’t necessarily mean that their children would have inevitably and unavoidably followed in their corrupt footsteps. Lehi, being the great prophet he was, may very well may have been given revelatory insight to understand the children of Laman and Lemuel were extraordinarily faithful and valiant in their pre-mortal lives, and that they would have continued faithful in mortality if it hadn’t been for the wickedness, spiritual blindness and manipulative unrighteous dominion of their parents.

In fact, by sending extraordinarily faithful spirit children into the families of Laman and Lemuel the Lord may have established a sacred corrective precedent that the Lamanites’ trajectory toward wickedness was actually perpetuated by many innocent victims who will ultimately receive great measures of mercy in the end. Just as there were extraordinary hidden spiritual giants among the Lamanites at the time of the mission of the sons of Mosiah, the children of Laman and Lemuel may very well have become spiritual giants if it hadn’t been for exceedingly por examples set by their their spirituality dead fathers.

We also don't ultimately know what happened to Laman & Lemuel after their mortality. I've harbored a desire/hope that the brothers reconciled in the hereafter and all was well.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm referring to these two quotes:

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.”

“When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother.”

Last night I was reading in 2 Nephi chapter 4 and verse five struck me because it didn't really make any sense.  In it Lehi declares (to the children of Laman) that if they were brought up in the way they should go that they would not depart from it.  That sounds good in theory but Lehi himself has first hand knowledge that it's not actually true, since he brought up Laman and Lemuel in the way that they should go and they very much departed from it.

Contemplating that verse led me to thinking about JS's similar teachings on the subject and now I'm wondering, where did JS get this idea from?  Do we know?  I've always wrestled with it because it seems to deny personal agency as well as choice and accountability.

2 Nephi 4:5 reads, “But behold, my sons and my daughters, I cannot go down to my grave save I should leave a blessing upon you; for behold, I know that if ye are brought up in the way ye should go ye will not depart from it.”

I do not think Lehi is confusing the one-time act of leaving a blessing at the end of his life with years of raising his sons and daughters to follow the covenant path.

I am thinking that “brought up” means elevated spiritually by grace. I believe that grace will attend any failed, good-faith efforts to bring children along in the covenants, eventually, perhaps in this life, perhaps the next. By leaving a blessing, I think he is inviting the Lord’s grace to attend his best efforts. It is still up to recipients to claim their blessing and remain on or return to the covenant path.

 “But behold, my sons and my daughters, I cannot go down to my grave save I should leave a blessing upon you; for behold, I know that if [by grace] ye are brought up in the way ye should go [i.e., strengthened to keep the laws of God] ye will not depart from it [if you have faith to receive it].”

ETA: Here are some Hebrew translations of "brought up" (note the first line, raise, elevate, etc.). I'm also thinking that the Holy Ghost trains, habituates, tutors and educates us and this may be another sense of a one-time blessing leading to long-term effects.

Edited October 25, 2021 by CV75

[Olmec Donald]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

“When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother.”

"Posterity" is a big word.  It includes all of the couple's descendants.

I wonder if Adam and Eve were sealed?

If so, then that same promise applies to all of us, doesn't it?

Edited October 25, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[bluebell]

22 minutes ago, CV75 said:

2 Nephi 4:5 reads, “But behold, my sons and my daughters, I cannot go down to my grave save I should leave a blessing upon you; for behold, I know that if ye are brought up in the way ye should go ye will not depart from it.”

I do not think Lehi is confusing the one-time act of leaving a blessing at the end of his life with years of raising his sons and daughters to follow the covenant path.

I am thinking that “brought up” means elevated spiritually by grace. I believe that grace will attend any failed, good-faith efforts to bring children along in the covenants, eventually, perhaps in this life, perhaps the next. By leaving a blessing, I think he is inviting the Lord’s grace to attend his best efforts. It is still up to recipients to claim their blessing and remain on or return to the covenant path.

 “But behold, my sons and my daughters, I cannot go down to my grave save I should leave a blessing upon you; for behold, I know that if [by grace] ye are brought up in the way ye should go [i.e., strengthened to keep the laws of God] ye will not depart from it [if you have faith to receive it].”

ETA: Here are some Hebrew translations of "brought up" (note the first line, raise, elevate, etc.). I'm also thinking that the Holy Ghost trains, habituates, tutors and educates us and this may be another sense of a one-time blessing leading to long-term effects.

That's an interesting way to look at it.  

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

"Posterity" is a big word.  It includes all of the couple's descendants.

I wonder if Adam and Eve were sealed?

If so, then that same promise applies to all of us, doesn't it?

It could I suppose.

And it's an interesting point because if they were sealed then Adam and Eve's posterity includes anyone who will become a son of perdition.

Edited October 25, 2021 by bluebell

[Olmec Donald]

37 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It could I suppose.

And it's an interesting point because if they were sealed then Adam and Eve's posterity includes anyone who will become a son of perdition.

Excellent point!  I hadn't thought it through that far. 

The parable of the lost sheep comes to mind.

[katherine the great]

47 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It could I suppose.

And it's an interesting point because if they were sealed then Adam and Eve's posterity includes anyone who will become a son of perdition.

From the link I posted:   

“Every spirit can be ferreted out in that world that has not sinned the unpardonable sin neither in this world or in the world of spirits. Every man who has a friend in the eternal world who hath not committed the unpardonable sin you can save him.” 

Joseph Smith presented this ability as applying not just to ones children but friends as well. I think this is compatible with Adam and Eve posterity. Sons of perdition exclude themselves by committing the unpardonable sin.

 

[CV75]

48 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That's an interesting way to look at it.  

Not to overdo it, but "go down to my grave" and "brought up in the way" seem to form a kind of antithetical parallelism, often used on Hebrew poetry.

[juliann]

3 hours ago, DispensatorMysteriorum said:

You may have already seen this, but Elder Bednar attempted to address some of these questions a number of years ago:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2014/03/faithful-parents-and-wayward-children-sustaining-hope-while-overcoming-misunderstanding?lang=eng

 

I don't think Pres. Packer has been gone long enough for Bednar to successfully overrule him and those he quotes. Plus, this idea has lineage. It is going to take a long time, no thanks to Elder Bednar, for us to accept grace. I was still in thrall to our salvation through works thinking when I read this (I think Pres. Packer's talk is one of the greatest of all conference talks). I didn't believe it. So I reread all of the scriptures and it hits you in the face once you stop reading scripture through the lens of works. 

I suppose the thinking is that if we let people think that sealings really mean sealing they will become libertines. But what actually happens is that we can overcome the rather self centered perfectionism that comes along with thinking you must be "worthy" and earn everything. Only then can you stop thinking of yourself all the time and relax enough to start thinking about other's salvation rather than your own. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1992/04/our-moral-environment?lang=eng

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught a more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.” (Orson F. Whitney, in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, p. 110.)

We cannot overemphasize the value of temple marriage, the binding ties of the sealing ordinance, and the standards of worthiness required of them. When parents keep the covenants they have made at the altar of the temple, their children will be forever bound to them. President Brigham Young said:

“Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom, take a righteous course, and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith and prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., 2:90–91.)

[CV75]

56 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

"Posterity" is a big word.  It includes all of the couple's descendants.

I wonder if Adam and Eve were sealed?

If so, then that same promise applies to all of us, doesn't it?

It seems that Lehi was doing what Adam (and subsequent patriarchs) did. Depending on what kinds of keys are used, they can be sealed, blessed by a patriarch, or blessed by a father or other elder.

Just because we are sealed doesn't mean we are exalted; we can be sealed into other kingdoms of lesser glories. We still need to be sealed to be exalted, though.

Everything hinges on our use of agency and our response to the love of God (Christ and His Atonement).

[CV75]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

It could I suppose.

And it's an interesting point because if they were sealed then Adam and Eve's posterity includes anyone who will become a son of perdition.

Yes, a sealing in this sense does not guarantee the recipient will honor its ramifications.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

It reminds me of President Kimball's similar declaration that if you have FHE faithfully, no parent will lose a wayward child in this way (or some such). Of course, this won't apply to me as a parent because my wife and I deliberately did not conduct FHE on May 15, 2011 so I guess we're out. ; ) JS's declaration specifies 'faithful' parents. Though we are sealed and active, our faith has faltered on a few occasions and so again, it looks like this promise won't apply to us either.

It think the promise applies.

The earthly sealing ordinance (including BIC) is part of being brought up in the way. The rest of family (and by extension, community) life has to do with doing all we can to get and keep God’s spirit children on this covenant path. Sometimes we falter but the promises remain and are attainable by grace as we repent.

Focusing on children (this thread), the ideal is that we never give up ministering to children in this life, and do so to the extent they will receive us. We may need to continue to minister to them in the spirit world, and we may be assigned to minister to them after the resurrection if they are in lesser kingdoms, per D&C 76, which touches on the other thread about progression between kingdoms.

I’ve bolded what I think are two very operative words in Joseph Smith’s quote:

“…if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.”

“When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother.”

The virtue of the covenant of their father and mother is really the virtue of the covenant of the Atonement of Christ, the marriage sealing being one, albeit a most important, appendage.  Some children may not choose to pay their debt to justice, suffer for their sins, tread a thorny path, pay the penalty of their transgressions, and be washed clean. Some will shrink from a fulness but still “receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation” by virtue of being born, i.e., the covenant of their father and mother which falls under the virtue of the covenant of the Atonement of Christ.

[Nofear]

4 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

"Posterity" is a big word.  It includes all of the couple's descendants.

I wonder if Adam and Eve were sealed?

If so, then that same promise applies to all of us, doesn't it?

It does. And if we fail, the earth will be utterly wasted (see Malachi). Hence, the grand work of the Redemption of the Dead.

"One of the great tasks of the kingdom of God on the earth is to perform the sealing and saving ordinances of the gospel for the entire human family.  The sealing of the priesthood must become as one unbroken chain from Adam and Eve to the latest generation, and as such will bind the entire human family together.  This can only occur in temples of the Lord, which have been dedicated and consecrated for that divine purpose." --Bryce Hammond (random internet person)
https://www.templestudy.com/2008/03/20/binding-the-human-family-together/

See also https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-20-no-1-2019/line-upon-line-joseph-smiths-growing-understanding-eternal-family

Edited October 25, 2021 by Nofear

[Olmec Donald]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

Just because we are sealed doesn't mean we are exalted...

Not yet!  It's a long, long path. 

Perhaps He who sees all things past present and future has sufficient reason to believe that all his children will eventually return to Him, that the term "sealed" is appropriate, even if it's not always apparent to us.  I think he tasked the Christ with making sure that happens (Moses 1:39).

And perhaps He who created us and loves us has contingency plans we know nothing of, just as the Christian world at large knows nothing of baptism for the dead... which is a most effective contingency plan, wouldn't you say? 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[CV75]

4 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

Not yet!  It's a long, long path. 

Perhaps He who sees all things past present and future has sufficient reason to believe that all his children will eventually return to Him, that the term "sealed" is appropriate, even if it's not always apparent to us.  I think he tasked the Christ wit making sure that happens (Moses 1:39).

And perhaps He who created us and loves us has contingency plans we know nothing of, just as the Christian world at large knows nothing of baptism for the dead... which is a most effective contingency plan, wouldn't you say? 

I do believe Christ has already ensured the exaltation of every spirit child of God born into the earth. I don't think there can be a "contingency plan" for agency that chooses otherwise, so results may vary!

[Olmec Donald]

1 hour ago, Nofear said:

"The sealing of the priesthood must become as one unbroken chain from Adam and Eve to the latest generation, and as such will bind the entire human family together." --Bryce Hammond (random internet person)

I agree.

I'm no longer LDS but one of the things I really like about Mormonism is the little hints here and there that we really are all connected, the worth of souls really is great, nobody gets cheated, nobody gets left out, the lost sheep will be sought out well into the next life, the prodigal sons and daughters will be welcomed home.  

In fact I think there is even justification within the nooks and crannys of Mormonism for the name you have chosen, "Nofear".  The Christian world's concept of salvation leaves plenty of room for fear for the souls of those with different beliefs.   Among western religions, to the best of my knowledge only Mormonism implies that Heaven isn't Heaven without the rest of our extended family (that "one unbroken chain" in your quote)... "we without them cannot be made perfect, neither can they without us be made perfect."

And "no fear" because of Whose job this is:  "For this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

Will He fail?  "The works and the designs and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught."

Edited October 25, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[CV75]

39 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

I agree.

I'm no longer LDS but one of the things I really like about Mormonism is the little hints here and there that we really are all connected, the worth of souls really is great, nobody gets cheated, nobody gets left out, the lost sheep will be sought out well into the next life, the prodigal sons and daughters will be welcomed home.  

In fact I think there is even justification within the nooks and crannys of Mormonism for the name you have chosen, "Nofear".  The Christian world's concept of salvation leaves plenty of room for fear for the souls of those with different beliefs.   Among western religions, to the best of my knowledge only Mormonism implies that Heaven isn't Heaven without the rest of our extended family (that "one unbroken chain" in your quote)... "we without them cannot be made perfect, neither can they without us be made perfect."

And "no fear" because of Whose job this is:  "For this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

Will He fail?  "The works and the designs and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught."

Of course He will not fail. He distinguishes between immortality and eternal life because we already chose immortality by coming into this second estate. Choosing eternal life is proven in this estate. In this way He guarantees for His children the two greatest gifts, their agency and His love.

[Olmec Donald]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I do believe Christ has already ensured the exaltation of every spirit child of God born into the earth. I don't think there can be a "contingency plan" for agency that chooses otherwise, so results may vary!

I totally agree that as long as we choose darkness over light, we cannot and will not progress.  But perhaps we will not always do so.  Perhaps at some point even the least among those created in the image of God will realize that darkness isn't fulfilling, and turn towards the light, sooner or later.  So perhaps there is more variation in "speed" than in ultimate "results".