Olmec Donald Posted November 2, 2021 Posted November 2, 2021 14 hours ago, Maestrophil said: Interesting thought - so it might mean eternities of wandering - but all will eventually cone home? Is that the meat of this train of thought? My opinion is that "all will eventually come home", but I could be wrong. I am aware of scriptures that say otherwise. Here are some concepts which give me hope: What is Christ's job? "To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Will He fail? "The works and the designs and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught." Wouldn't it still be a success if He only lost a few souls? "The worth of souls is great in the sight of God." Well then, wouldn't He be okay with losing just one? "What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?" So by this line of thinking, if all one hundred and eight billion of us have "made it", and there is just one son of perdition left, he'd have one hundred and eight billion souls, for whom time does not exist, doing whatever it takes to find him and bring him home. And then we'd have one epic party, because we are all so deeply connected that: "We without them cannot be made perfect." But I could be wrong. 1
Calm Posted November 2, 2021 Posted November 2, 2021 (edited) On 11/1/2021 at 11:27 PM, Olmec Donald said: My opinion is that "all will eventually come home", but I could be wrong. I am aware of scriptures that say otherwise. Here are some concepts which give me hope: What is Christ's job? "To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Will He fail? "The works and the designs and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught." Wouldn't it still be a success if He only lost a few souls? "The worth of souls is great in the sight of God." Well then, wouldn't He be okay with losing just one? "What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?" So by this line of thinking, if all one hundred and eight billion of us have "made it", and there is just one son of perdition left, he'd have one hundred and eight billion souls, for whom time does not exist, doing whatever it takes to find him and bring him home. And then we'd have one epic party, because we are all so deeply connected that: "We without them cannot be made perfect." But I could be wrong. I believe if this is possible without violating the principle of agency, that this is the likely end result of God’s work. My only concern with accepting it as the most likely truth of our future existence is the issue of agency. God had the eternity that preexisted before the rebellion of his spirit children to set up the most transcendent loving environment and learning experience and yet a significant part of his children still chose rebellion at that time if we are interpreting scripture correctly. What will be so different in postmortality from premortality that will eventually remove any and all desire to rebel from the hearts of God’s children and lead all instead to desire to align themselves with God in love and obedience? I can’t really think of anything that might be significantly different besides having the actual experience of living with the consequences of rebellion and eventually accepting that such is ultimately stupid, that rebellion towards God prevents us from being free and in control of our own lives and is exceedingly dull and boring rather than whatever end was seen as so desirable by those who rebelled or still do. Edited November 5, 2021 by Calm 3
Olmec Donald Posted November 2, 2021 Posted November 2, 2021 (edited) 13 hours ago, Calm said: I believe if this is possible without violating the principle of agency, that this is the likely end result of God’s work. My only concern with accepting it as the most likely truth of our future existence is the issue of agency. I think agency is what it takes for the captives to become free, so I think agency is on our side. I speculate that "all of these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good" is also an eternal principle. And quoting the prophet Nehor (I couldn't find the reference but it's in Kenngo1969's signature): "Devils are boring creatures with minds of gritty yuckiness. They are banal." So not only "wickedness never was happiness", but also eventually it becomes boring as hell. As long as a person can change their mind - that is, as long as they have agency - they can choose again. Which bring us to another imo eternal principle that God wanted to get out to a wider audience than the LDS church has, and none of the bigger religions are accepting revelation right now, so he used Robert Plant: "Yes there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run, there's still time to change the road you're on." So suppose two people in hell fall in love, and now each wants happiness for the other. They have just obeyed the Second Great Commandment. How can that NOT move them towards the light? I bet that Beatles song - "All you need is love" - is banned in hell. Then there are missionary efforts, beings of greater light who go down incognito to teach (illustrated in the instructional part of the endowment ceremony), even rumors of a King who disguises himself as the least among us. And behind the scenes an incredibly smart and incredibly loving Father, who created us in His image, moving the chess pieces. So no, it's not guaranteed, but I think there are enough pathways for light and love to get through that they will win out in the end. "In my Father's toolbox are many tools". Or something like that. 13 hours ago, Calm said: God had the eternity that preexisted before the rebellion of his spirit children to set up the most transcendent loving environment and learning experience and yet a significant part of his children still chose rebellion at that time if we are interpreting scripture correctly. What will be so different in postmortality from premortality that will eventually remove desire to rebel from the hearts of God’s children and lead all to desire to align themselves with God in love and obedience? Experience is one thing that will be different. Those who chose to learn the hard way will have been given that opportunity in abundance. 13 hours ago, Calm said: I can’t really think of anything that might be different besides having the experience of living with the consequences of rebellion and eventually accepting that such is ultimately stupid, that rebellion towards God prevents us from being free and in control of our own lives and is exceedingly dull and boring rather than whatever end was seen as so desirable by those who rebelled or still do. I think we're pretty much on the same page, and if I'm erring on the side of optimism, I assure you THAT is not my worst mistake! Edited November 2, 2021 by Olmec Donald 1
mfbukowski Posted November 2, 2021 Posted November 2, 2021 On 10/26/2021 at 3:37 PM, The Nehor said: *steps up to podium to deliver sermon/rant* I’d just like to say… *glances down, sighs, and balls up notes and throw them away* What is the point? Yeah, that was my point in my post. I mean there are just plain parts of the gospel no one has constructed a paradigm for yet that have not yet been revealed by the Holy Ghost. I dont mean to imply that revelation is not real- I have experienced it myself- but that the process is 1- study it out in your mind and then 2- get confirmation from the HG. So the two processes are interlocked. The less complicated answer is "we don't know how it works. " I know my personal patriarchal blessing was revealed though. But hypothetical answers about the complexities of how the sealing machine works are just silly to worry about. We keep concentrating on how the machine works without thinking about why there is a machine there in the first place. Stick to the big picture is my motto. 2
mfbukowski Posted November 2, 2021 Posted November 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Olmec Donald said: I think agency is what it takes for the captives to become free, so I think agency is on our side. I speculate that "all of these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good" is also an eternal principle. And quoting the prophet Nehor (I couldn't find the reference but it's in Kenngo1969's signature): "Devils are boring creatures with minds of gritty yuckiness. They are banal." So not only "wickedness never was happiness", but also eventually it becomes boring as hell. As long as a person can change their mind - that is, as long as they have agency - they can choose again. Which bring us to another imo eternal principle that God wanted to get out to a wider audience than the LDS church has, and none of the bigger religions are accepting revelation right now, so he used Robert Plant: "Yes there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run, there's still time to change the road you're on." So suppose two people in hell fall in love, and now each wants happiness for the other. They have just obeyed the Second Great Commandment. How can that NOT move them towards the light? I bet that Beatles song - "All you need is love" - is banned in hell. Then there are missionary efforts, beings of greater light who go down incognito to teach (illustrated in the instructional part of the endowment ceremony), even rumors of a King who disguises himself as the least among us. And behind the scenes an incredibly smart and incredibly loving Father, who created us in His image, moving the chess pieces. So no, it's not guaranteed, but I think there are enough pathways for light and love to get through that they will win out in the end. "In my Father's toolbox are many tools". Or something like that. Experience is one thing that will be different. Those who chose to learn the hard way will have been given that opportunity in abundance. I think we're pretty much on the same page, and if I'm erring on the side of optimism, I assure you THAT is not my worst mistake! Dang ya. You keep stealing my responses before I even think of them! As for rock-n-roll theology, specifically in epistemology- I love the Moody Blues- Graham Edge: Quote "Cold hearted orb that rules the night Removes the colors from our sight Red is grey and yellow whte, yet we decide which is right And which IS an "illusion"" That is the whole point of epistemology right there. We have experiences and we decide which is "right" and which is an "illusion". THAT is the theory of Everything- in my book. Direct experience IS what is real and interpretations are not. But the problem is, our brain interprets everything. Our eyes can't even distinguish what is CALLED yellow when the lighting is unusual. We can never see "reality" for what it is, so we construct our paradigms and know that sometimes that experience is called "yellow" and sometimes we call it "white". And then we beings who cannot possibly know what is "real" decide to make up stories about God!! Oh well, if they work, they are fine I guess until a better one comes along! My new campaign is to change the standard testimony by adding two little words. " I know WHAT the church TEACHES is true" That means "I've tried it and I like it' And the missionary slogan should be "Try it- you'll like it". And if you don't, make up your own story!! 3
Islander Posted November 13, 2021 Posted November 13, 2021 On 10/25/2021 at 8:32 AM, bluebell said: I'm referring to these two quotes: “The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.” “When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother.” Last night I was reading in 2 Nephi chapter 4 and verse five struck me because it didn't really make any sense. In it Lehi declares (to the children of Laman) that if they were brought up in the way they should go that they would not depart from it. That sounds good in theory but Lehi himself has first hand knowledge that it's not actually true, since he brought up Laman and Lemuel in the way that they should go and they very much departed from it. Contemplating that verse led me to thinking about JS's similar teachings on the subject and now I'm wondering, where did JS get this idea from? Do we know? I've always wrestled with it because it seems to deny personal agency as well as choice and accountability. He was obviously mistaken. There are many instances in the scriptures where the children of many great faithful saints went astray. You have at play that great dichotomy between free will and the sovereignty of God. Te sons of Lehi are a perfect example.
Lemuel Posted November 13, 2021 Posted November 13, 2021 On 10/25/2021 at 10:32 AM, bluebell said: I'm referring to these two quotes: “The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.” “When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother.” Last night I was reading in 2 Nephi chapter 4 and verse five struck me because it didn't really make any sense. In it Lehi declares (to the children of Laman) that if they were brought up in the way they should go that they would not depart from it. That sounds good in theory but Lehi himself has first hand knowledge that it's not actually true, since he brought up Laman and Lemuel in the way that they should go and they very much departed from it. Contemplating that verse led me to thinking about JS's similar teachings on the subject and now I'm wondering, where did JS get this idea from? Do we know? I've always wrestled with it because it seems to deny personal agency as well as choice and accountability. Perhaps "seal" had a different meaning for Joseph than it does for us today.
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