Burkas, modesty rhetoric and where do we go from here

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

No, it's not the clothing, it's the idea that the rulers of a country should have the right to determine a dress code for those who live in that country.  That is what does not bother me.  Their country, their dress code. 

Those who don't like the dress code their rulers require should just find new rulers, in that country or some other country, or become their own rulers themselves.  Which is one thing I like about America.  We choose or become our own rulers.

You treat migration as a taste thing and not something that can strangle you in rules and regulations and may be outright prohibited. Your solution is naive.

Most migrants are not Northern Europeans trying to get into the US in the early 1800s.

Edited August 20, 2021 by The Nehor

[katherine the great]

9 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

The dress code thing is not a big deal to me.  Seems to be like a dress code requirement for women to wear a burqa in that country.  If I was a woman and didn't like the burqa requirement then I would just leave that country while wearing a burqa until I crossed the border out of that country.  To be safe, until I could leave.  But when in Rome I would expect to do as Romans are told to do, by Roman law..

Lucky you!  I’m glad it’s so simple for you. Most of us would have to worry about:

How are we going to feed ourselves as we flee?  Where are we going to go? How do we know we won’t get shot and killed along the way?  How will we support ourselves while we’re traveling?  How will we support ourselves once we are there? How will I communicate in a country where I don’t know the language? Do I want to put an open ended (possibly permanent) barrier between myself and my parents? My siblings? My children? 
Most Afghanis simply don’t have the resources to remove themselves and all of their loved ones from the country to get away from the Taliban. If they could, I’m sure a lot more of them would.

[bOObOO]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Sure….just leave. Never mind that it is criminal to walk down the street without a male relative escorting you. You can just leave!

That is sarcasm btw.

No problem.  A woman would just need to find another woman who identifies as a male.

That is sarcasm, too, btw.

[katherine the great]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Sure….just leave. Never mind that it is criminal to walk down the street without a male relative escorting you. You can just leave!

That is sarcasm btw.

I recently read an article about the first Taliban takeover and a woman needed to get to the pharmacy to pick up a prescription. She had no male children so she shaved her daughters head to try to pass her off as a male escort. It didn’t work. Once she had gotten her medicine, the morality police came and whipped her for being out in public without a male escort.  That is the kind of world these women have to look forward to. 

[katherine the great]

4 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

No problem.  A woman would just need to find another woman who identifies as a male.

That is sarcasm, too, btw.

Judge Judy says, “You’re an idiot”. 

[bOObOO]

3 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Lucky you!  I’m glad it’s so simple for you. Most of us would have to worry about:

How are we going to feed ourselves as we flee?  Where are we going to go? How do we know we won’t get shot and killed along the way?  How will we support ourselves while we’re traveling?  How will we support ourselves once we are there? How will I communicate in a country where I don’t know the language? Do I want to put an open ended (possibly permanent) barrier between myself and my parents? My siblings? My children? 
Most Afghanis simply don’t have the resources to remove themselves and all of their loved ones from the country to get away from the Taliban. If they could, I’m sure a lot more of them would.

Not necessarily simple, but that would probably be my solution.  I'd wear a burqa if local law required it until I could leave that country.  Unless I would rather be harassed for not wearing a burqa and then just complain about being harassed.

We, people in general, can usually come up with a solution to solve our problems.  We may need to plan and save and put up with some things we don't like until we can improve our situations, but no problem is unsolvable.  We just need to do whatever it takes.

[katherine the great]

10 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

Not necessarily simple, but that would probably be my solution.  I'd wear a burqa if local law required it until I could leave that country.  Unless I would rather be harassed for not wearing a burqa and then just complain about being harassed.

We, people in general, can usually come up with a solution to solve our problems.  We may need to plan and save and put up with some things we don't like until we can improve our situations, but no problem is unsolvable.  We just need to do whatever it takes.

So naive…You have obviously never identified as an Afghani woman.

[bOObOO]

Just now, katherine the great said:

So naive…You have obviously never identified as an Afghani woman.

I know what I would tell any woman to do to solve that particular problem, and if I were there I would offer to help some of them leave that country if they wanted to leave.  We would be able to work out a solution.  Doubters and naysayers would be ignored.

[Fether]

56 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m not following. What does modesty have to do with bearing another’s burdens?I’m not following. What does modesty have to do with bearing another’s burdens?

It doesn’t, that was my whole point. The best argument, as far as I can tell, for men and women not wearing skimpy clothing is not modesty, but being self aware enough to realize that the way you dress may negatively affect the thoughts of others who struggle with impure thoughts.

[strappinglad]

Rose colored glasses are powerful...  I guess. 

[MustardSeed]

47 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!

Oh boy, not sure if you are pretending to not know to get someone to explain it or you honestly don’t know. In either case:

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!

Ok. 

[MustardSeed]

57 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

This is obviously an interesting topic for me. Another opinion that I have is that it’s absolute nonsense that boys can wear swimsuits to activities and never have one single fart about modesty with regards to their torso, shoulders, breasts, belly button, waist, Back etc. but girls before they are even allowed to show up have to be conscientious about whether or not their waist, torso, shoulders, breasts, belly button, etc. are showing. It’s absolute nonsense and contributes IMO To major insecurities around bodies which in my opinion leads to complications with sexuality etc. this is a much bigger topic than I have time to go into right now. But I did want to share these thoughts

Edited to say I didn’t intend to type “fart”.  I think I meant to say care. 

[katherine the great]

22 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

I know what I would tell any woman to do to solve that particular problem, and if I were there I would offer to help some of them leave that country if they wanted to leave.  We would be able to work out a solution.  Doubters and naysayers would be ignored.

You disrespect them by grossly simplifying their plight. 

[MustardSeed]

7 minutes ago, Fether said:

It doesn’t, that was my whole point. The best argument, as far as I can tell, for men and women not wearing skimpy clothing is not modesty, but being self aware enough to realize that the way you dress may negatively affect the thoughts of others who struggle with impure thoughts.

One of my clients once had a shoe fetish.  It was not my job to wear clodhoppers as a way of managing his addiction.  
 

if a man struggles with impure thoughts, it’s is not my job to manage my wardrobe around his issues.  If so, how am I to assume his fetishes? His preferences? Should I shave my head? Should I wear a mumu? Should I let my armpit hair grow out? Should I gain 50 pounds? Lose 50 pounds? Etc etc. 
 

your concern is antiquated . 

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Edited to say I didn’t intend to type “fart”.  I think I meant to say care. 

I thought fart was a good option.  Almost like the typo was meant to be. 

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Edited to say I didn’t intend to type “fart”.  I think I meant to say care. 

Works either way. 

[Calm]

43 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

One of my clients once had a shoe fetish.  It was not my job to wear clodhoppers as a way of managing his addiction.  
 

if a man struggles with impure thoughts, it’s is not my job to manage my wardrobe around his issues.  If so, how am I to assume his fetishes? His preferences? Should I shave my head? Should I wear a mumu? Should I let my armpit hair grow out? Should I gain 50 pounds? Lose 50 pounds? Etc etc. 
 

your concern is antiquated . 

I recommend armpit and leg hair if Latter-day Saint.   
 

When I was at BYU, one of the psych students did research on what were the most common attributes the male students wanted in a spouse.  The only iirc significant finding was the women had to shave their legs. 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Calm

[bOObOO]

30 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

You disrespect them by grossly simplifying their plight. 

You disrespect me by thinking I don't understand.  And you are wrong.  I know their plight isn't pleasant but there are very simple solutions to all of their problems.  As simple as the gospel is simple. Not always pleasant, but doable, even if a fight unto death.

[katherine the great]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

I recommend armpit and leg hair if Latter-day Saint.   
 

When I was at BYU, one of the psych students did research on what was the most common attributes the male students wanted in a spouse.  The only iirc significant finding was the women had to shave their legs. 

Thanks for the reminder. I was just noticing my legs could use a good shave. 😁

[katherine the great]

1 minute ago, bOObOO said:

You disrespect me by thinking I don't understand.

I’m okay with that. 

[katherine the great]

2 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

I know their plight isn't pleasant but there are very simple solutions to all of their problems.

Um. No. 

[bOObOO]

Just now, katherine the great said:

I’m okay with that. 

LOL.  Yeah I know you are.  Which is how I know disrespecting people is not much of a problem for you.  I still respect you though even when I know you are wrong.

Let's get back on track with burqas now, shall we.

[bsjkki]

51 minutes ago, Fether said:

It doesn’t, that was my whole point. The best argument, as far as I can tell, for men and women not wearing skimpy clothing is not modesty, but being self aware enough to realize that the way you dress may negatively affect the thoughts of others who struggle with impure thoughts.

Worst reason ever!!! My dress does not control your thoughts. I hate this idiotic argument. It needs to die. This is why young men feel empowered to tell young women how to dress. Anything can produce impure thoughts in teenage boys or men. Anything.

[mgy401]

42 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

One of my clients once had a shoe fetish.  It was not my job to wear clodhoppers as a way of managing his addiction.  
 

if a man struggles with impure thoughts, it’s is not my job to manage my wardrobe around his issues.  If so, how am I to assume his fetishes? His preferences? Should I shave my head? Should I wear a mumu? Should I let my armpit hair grow out? Should I gain 50 pounds? Lose 50 pounds? Etc etc. 
 

your concern is antiquated . 

Hmm.  Sometime back, a woman at my workplace went out for three months on maternity leave.  She still collected a paycheck.  I, and a couple of other male coworkers, spent those three months doing her job in addition to our own; and didn’t get any kind of bonus.

The idea of people inconveniencing themselves a little bit in order to help out someone who has a gender-based challenge, is not necessarily oppression.  There are limits, sure; but I think if we’re honest with ourselves we can at least acknowledge that these sorts of discussions are more about the degree of acceptable gender-based accommodation than whether gender-based accommodations should ever be made at all.  Particularly when we are all members of a community in which we (claim to) love each other.

[mgy401]

14 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Worst reason ever!!! My dress does not control your thoughts. I hate this idiotic argument. It needs to die. This is why young men feel empowered to tell young women how to dress. Anything can produce impure thoughts in teenage boys or men. Anything.

Granted, teenaged boys tend to be hypersensitive; but the idea that a teenager boy is going to be as aroused by—say—a paperclip, as by an attractive woman in yoga pants and a sports bra, is just plain silly.

And the above seems to show a lot of animus towards people who are, arguably, victims of their own hormones.  It’s not like teenaged males are the only people who ever demonstrate hormonally-based antisocial behaviors.

Edited August 20, 2021 by mgy401