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New Book on Polygamy


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8 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

For me or anyone else and I have explained my reasons why.

When you say that the book is not for "anyone else" are you speaking as a prophet?  If not then I'm not sure I should believe you :)

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36 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

When you say that the book is not for "anyone else" are you speaking as a prophet?  If not then I'm not sure I should believe you :)

Tip:  Never ask anyone but God if a man is speaking as a prophet because he could tell a lie and say Yes when he really is not.  If he is speaking as a prophet then of course you should believe him.

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1 hour ago, bOObOO said:

Tip:  Never ask anyone but God if a man is speaking as a prophet because he could tell a lie and say Yes when he really is not.  If he is speaking as a prophet then of course you should believe him.

One consistent think in your posts is that you often mention asking God about something. When you do that, how does He answer you? I hope you don't mind the question.

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Living where I do, I am very interested in the history of polygyny in the COJCOLDS. I have read everything I could get my hands on. I especially appreciate B Carmon Hardy's and Jesse Embry's work. She was my editor at he Journal of Mormon History. I value her as a good friend and incredibly wise woman.

I don't know about the rest of the church, but I can say with a low degree of uncertainty that the LDS folks here are by in large uncomfortable about talking about their connections with the fundamentalist Mormon groups in Utah, Arizona, and here in Mexico. This was highlighted right after the tragic murders of the women and children over in Sonora in November 2019. The press from all over the world flooded our area asking questions, probing into connections between LDS and fundamentalist folks. Folks were clearly officially discouraged from discussing the subject, especially with the press. We have two stakes here and the public relations representatives of the two stakes were concerned. It became an issue that I thought warranted more study so I proposed and was invited to give a talk on the issue at the June 2020 MHA conference in Rochester. That conference was subsequently cancelled. It was a fascinating study. I was able to visit the remaining fundamentalist colonies here and even some that no longer exist. I have thought about expanding the study into a book on the subject. I just have to finish my dissertation first!

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14 minutes ago, Navidad said:

One consistent think in your posts is that you often mention asking God about something. When you do that, how does He answer you? I hope you don't mind the question.

He answers me by sharing his ideas and feelings with me to let me know what he thinks and feels about what I have asked him.  Sometimes I get very strong impressions and other times it is more subtle.  Very seldom a voice I hear with my ears.

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On 7/30/2021 at 8:23 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

Have you ever showed her my response to one of your, "My wife, Wendy" posts of, "President Nelson, is that you?" ;) :D

Her interest in this forum approaches zero, as it turns out.

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Also speaking for myself, I don't find those kinds of experiences trustworthy.   I was once in a sacrament meeting where a woman with a beautiful voice sang Amazing Grace.  It was so touching.  I thought it made the whole sacrament meeting.

But later that day I was talking to the bishop about something--a great man--and it came out that he had told her she couldn't sing that song in church.  He commented on how the spirit instantly left the meeting when she started singing it.

FYI, “Amazing Grace” was left out of the current hymn book because it was felt it too closely taught the protestant doctrine of salvation by grace alone.  I got that from the son of one of the then committee members.  

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

It's not just in our heritage though.  It's currently being practiced in the temple, and every latter-day saint wife who is married in the temple has to face the idea that, should she die before her husband, she could end up in a polygamous relationship for eternity.  Obviously we know that God would not force anyone into any kind of relationship, but if a beloved husband gets sealed to another woman, that puts the first wife in a spot to either lose him and those blessings, or face the idea of something she might really loath right now.

Then again, every married man in the Church has to face the idea that should he die before his wife, his wife may remarry and have the sealing done (whether in her life or posthumously) and then “choose” to spend eternity in the company of her second husband.

Because of the intimacy of the relationships involved, marriage—whether monogamous, polygynous, or polyandrous; whether eternal or temporary in nature—compels those who participate in the institution to face some very harsh realities and possibilities.  I think most of these concerns tend to resolve themselves if the parties are able to fully trust their partners.  A woman who perseverates on the fear of being sucked into eternal polygamy by an insensitive husband, like a man who perseverates on the fear of being eternally abandoned by his remarried wife, may well have some legitimate issues to resolve with the Church’s theology on marriage; but that person probably also has some deeper issues to address regarding the dynamics within their own marriage and (in)ability to fully trust in a romantic partner.  

Edited by mgy401
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12 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

FYI, “Amazing Grace” was left out of the current hymn book because it was felt it too closely taught the protestant doctrine of salvation by grace alone.  I got that from the son of one of the then committee members.  

Well, this is not the way we LDS usually talk about grace.

Was Grace that taught my heart to fear
And Grace, my fears relieved
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.”

I’m not aware of any LDS hymn that is popular in other denominations. Why not use the talents and efforts of LDS composers and poets?

Edited by Bernard Gui
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25 minutes ago, mgy401 said:

Then again, every married man in the Church has to face the idea that should he die before his wife, his wife may remarry and have the sealing done (whether in her life or posthumously) and then “choose” to spend eternity in the company of her second husband.

 

This would seem to speak to our lack of understanding of a loving Father in Heaven and His plan.

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1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

FYI, “Amazing Grace” was left out of the current hymn book because it was felt it too closely taught the protestant doctrine of salvation by grace alone.  I got that from the son of one of the then committee members.  

I’m sure that’s why he told her no. I’m holding out hope it makes it into the next one. 

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1 hour ago, mgy401 said:

Then again, every married man in the Church has to face the idea that should he die before his wife, his wife may remarry and have the sealing done (whether in her life or posthumously) and then “choose” to spend eternity in the company of her second husband.

Because of the intimacy of the relationships involved, marriage—whether monogamous, polygynous, or polyandrous; whether eternal or temporary in nature—compels those who participate in the institution to face some very harsh realities and possibilities.  I think most of these concerns tend to resolve themselves if the parties are able to fully trust their partners.  A woman who perseverates on the fear of being sucked into eternal polygamy by an insensitive husband, like a man who perseverates on the fear of being eternally abandoned by his remarried wife, may well have some legitimate issues to resolve with the Church’s theology on marriage; but that person probably also has some deeper issues to address regarding the dynamics within their own marriage and (in)ability to fully trust in a romantic partner.  

I’m not sure what the “men might be abandoned in the eternities” has to do with the doctrine of polygamy. 

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On 7/30/2021 at 1:19 PM, bOObOO said:

For me or anyone else and I have explained my reasons why.

So you wouldn’t read a book about the events of the Civil War because everyone who said anything at the time might have been lying? There may not have even been a war. Maybe they just made empanadas and had a party!

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12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I’m not sure what the “men might be abandoned in the eternities” has to do with the doctrine of polygamy. 

It has to do with the fact that our teaching of eternal marriage renders both a husband and a wife “vulnerable” in the event of their own premature deaths, if they believe their widow(er)’s devotion to themselves to be less than absolute.  

Frankly, I’m not sure what being in a Heaven where other people might be practicing polygamy in the eternities has to do with any particular monogamous woman’s own marriage, if she is confident of her husband’s love for and devotion to her. 

Edited by mgy401
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1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Well, this is not the way we LDS usually talk about grace.

Was Grace that taught my heart to fear
And Grace, my fears relieved
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.”

I’m not aware of any LDS hymn that is popular in other denominations. Why not use the talents and efforts of LDS composers and poets?

We have a number of hymns that are common to other sects.

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8 minutes ago, mgy401 said:

It has to do with the fact that our teaching of eternal marriage renders both a husband and a wife “vulnerable” in the event of their own premature deaths, if they believe their widow(er)’s devotion to themselves to be less than absolute.  

Frankly, I’m not sure what being in a Heaven where other people might be practicing polygamy in the eternities has to do with any particular monogamous woman’s own marriage, if she is confident of her husband’s love for and devotion to her. 

You just have to realize that there is probably no jealousy in the celestial realms so these kinds of problems will not……

“And it shall come to pass that they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and am a jealous God,” - Mosiah 11:22

Oh…..never mind.

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9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I’m not sure what the “men might be abandoned in the eternities” has to do with the doctrine of polygamy. 

You'd be surprised.

President John Taylor gave a long discourse on this in 1853 General Conference:

"What would be the position of a man who would take a course to rob his neighbor, or take advantage of him in the case of his legitimacy, which you have heard of this morning? Such a man must be a greater fool than the other. For instance, a good man dies, who has served God in righteousness all hisd ays; the weary wheels of life stand still, and he goes to the world of spirits. He believed in the principles of justice, equity, righteousness, and truth, and that his rights would be held sacred to him by his brethren after he was gone. But some professed man of God comes to his widow, and wants to steal her away from him; he would rob the dead with impunity, under the ostensible garb of justice to her and her dead husband; he will tell her he is doing it out of pure love to them both, and he is going to exalt them in the kingdom of God. We read of the kingdom of God suffering violence; if violence is ever attempted, it is in a case of this kind. It is bad enough to steal from a man his earthly property, his oxen, his cow, his horse, his harness, his wagon wheels, and other paraphernalia; but what think you of a man that would rob the dead of a treasure which he holds the most dear, and prized as the most precious thing he possessed on earth—his affectionate wife! Such a person will assuredly miss his figure.You will find in the ancient laws of Israel, there were proper rules in relation to these matters; one was, that if a man died without a child, his brother or the nearest relation of the husband should take the widow; and raise up seed to her husband, that his name might be continued in Israel, and not be blotted out. Where did these laws come from? We are told they came from God. But instead of doing this, suppose he should try to steal this woman away, and rob his brother—how would he get along, I wonder, with such a case against him, at the bar of justice?

We shall know that we have a claim upon our own in the first resurrection; we shall know that our wives and our children will be there to join us, justice will be administered, and we shall have a claim upon them in the eternal world, and that no unprincipled scoundrel will be permitted to set his foot on another, or rob him of his just claims. Why is a woman sealed to a man for time and all eternity? Because there is legitimate power on earth to do it. This power will bind on earth and in heaven; it can loose on earth, and it is loosed in heaven; it can seal on earth, and it is sealed in heaven. There is a legitimate, authorized agent of God upon earth; this sealing power is regulated by him; hence what is done by that, is done right, and is recorded. When the books are opened, everyone will find his proper mate, and have those that belong to him, and everyone will be deprived of that which is surreptitiously obtained."

 

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3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You'd be surprised.

President John Taylor gave a long discourse on this in 1853 General Conference:

"What would be the position of a man who would take a course to rob his neighbor, or take advantage of him in the case of his legitimacy, which you have heard of this morning? Such a man must be a greater fool than the other. For instance, a good man dies, who has served God in righteousness all hisd ays; the weary wheels of life stand still, and he goes to the world of spirits. He believed in the principles of justice, equity, righteousness, and truth, and that his rights would be held sacred to him by his brethren after he was gone. But some professed man of God comes to his widow, and wants to steal her away from him; he would rob the dead with impunity, under the ostensible garb of justice to her and her dead husband; he will tell her he is doing it out of pure love to them both, and he is going to exalt them in the kingdom of God. We read of the kingdom of God suffering violence; if violence is ever attempted, it is in a case of this kind. It is bad enough to steal from a man his earthly property, his oxen, his cow, his horse, his harness, his wagon wheels, and other paraphernalia; but what think you of a man that would rob the dead of a treasure which he holds the most dear, and prized as the most precious thing he possessed on earth—his affectionate wife! Such a person will assuredly miss his figure.You will find in the ancient laws of Israel, there were proper rules in relation to these matters; one was, that if a man died without a child, his brother or the nearest relation of the husband should take the widow; and raise up seed to her husband, that his name might be continued in Israel, and not be blotted out. Where did these laws come from? We are told they came from God. But instead of doing this, suppose he should try to steal this woman away, and rob his brother—how would he get along, I wonder, with such a case against him, at the bar of justice?

We shall know that we have a claim upon our own in the first resurrection; we shall know that our wives and our children will be there to join us, justice will be administered, and we shall have a claim upon them in the eternal world, and that no unprincipled scoundrel will be permitted to set his foot on another, or rob him of his just claims. Why is a woman sealed to a man for time and all eternity? Because there is legitimate power on earth to do it. This power will bind on earth and in heaven; it can loose on earth, and it is loosed in heaven; it can seal on earth, and it is sealed in heaven. There is a legitimate, authorized agent of God upon earth; this sealing power is regulated by him; hence what is done by that, is done right, and is recorded. When the books are opened, everyone will find his proper mate, and have those that belong to him, and everyone will be deprived of that which is surreptitiously obtained."

 

So my friend who told me I could marry his wife if he died………is a sinner or a saint?

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5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So my friend who told me I could marry his wife if he died………is a sinner or a saint?

Well back when we did sealings for time that came with the covenant that new offspring would belong to the deceased husband you'd have been fine.

Just like the one Hyrum Smith made when he married Mercy Thompson.  And Brigham made when he married Zina.

That's how it used to be.  As Pres Taylor said, you can't rob the dead.

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3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Well back when we did sealings for time that came with the covenant that new offspring would belong to the deceased husband you'd have been fine.

Just like the one Hyrum Smith made when he married Mercy Thompson.  And Brigham made when he married Zina.

That's how it used to be.  As Pres Taylor said, you can't rob the dead.

Well, my friend didn’t end up dying like there was a pretty good chance he would.

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4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Those kinds of talks, where the man is the be-all, end-all and women are treated as possessions, are really really hard for a lot of women in the church. 

I can understand why that would be.  And that's all I'll say about it.  🤐😉

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