Tools of the devil

[AtlanticMike]

7 hours ago, juliann said:

Chocolate..

I'm sure the person who had to clean this up agrees with you😁

 

Edited June 13, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[Kenngo1969]

I think, when we talk about the "evils" of the Word of Wisdom, that, often, we're approaching the problem from the wrong end: It's not that users are evil for using, even though many of them do horrible things when they are under the influence of alcohol or drugs; it's that many of the purveyors of the substances are evil (or at least, they have done evil) by doing the things they have done to promote use of their products.

As an example, in the case of tobacco, consider the case of Jeffrey Wigand, whom his employer reportedly (according to him) harassed for his blowing the whistle on the company's efforts to increase the addictiveness of cigarettes:  Here's what Wikipedia has to say about Dr. Wigand.  Here's the 1996 Vanity Fair article about him that inspired the film Inside Man.  And more information about the film is available here, here, and here. 

Could similar tales be told about the efforts to promote the use of alcohol and of certain other (also-legal) drugs?  You betcha.  And if those kind of tales can be told about efforts to promote the use of legal drugs, can they also be told about efforts to promote the use of illegal drugs?  Yes.  In spades.  "[E]vils and designs that do and will exist in the hearts of men in the last days," indeed (Doctrine and Covenants 89:4).

—

[Stargazer]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

Please PM me on this because I am going to forget before I am in a space I can do something about it.

Done

[Stargazer]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

Next time  , use it to barter for food.

[Facepalm!] Why didn't I think of that at the time? 40 years too late....

[Stargazer]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

We have a lot of immigrants here in LA and so there are "water" stores everywhere. That's all they sell!

They run the tap water through a filter and then sell it as if it is "bottled water " at relatively expensive prices.  The newbies have no idea that tap water is safe as is

Flint, Michigan.

[AtlanticMike]

20 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

it's that many of the purveyors of the substances are evil (or at least, they have done evil) by doing the things they have done to promote use of their products.

So like I said, I thought about what you said yesterday, about the people who promote the use of their products have done evil. 

    Here's what I can't understand with what you're saying. Through the lense of Mormonism, we believe Heavenly Father has given Satan permission to tempt us while we're here on Earth, correct? If so, is Satan is using what God has given him to work with? Who made the cannabis plant, shrooms, and so on? I agree that people taking advantage of others by selling crack or meth is evil, but ultimately it's our decision to partake of any substance we put in our body. 

    As Mormons, do we consider the Budweiser corparstion  evil, how bout Jim Beam, the guy who makes beer in his garage, Brigham Young selling alcohol, and so on. Where do you draw the line on what purveyors are evil and who isn't?

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Thank you Robert! But it wasn't always fun sometimes he let me have it. I think I've already told this story on here but I'll tell it again because it's funny and the same bishop was involved.

    On one of our bigger camping trips, I think there were like 15 boys that went and I had the great idea to take a couple chickens and right before dinner I let them loose and had the boys chase them and of course kill them so we could eat them for dinner. At the time it seemed like a great idea, I mean, I butcher chickens all the time. But after dropping the boys off in the church parking lot Saturday night after camping,  about 3 hours or so later the bishop called me and said all's he's been doing for the past hour is talking to irate, pissed off mom's that couldn't believe their precious little boys killed chickens for dinner 😂😂. I tell you what, that Sunday at church I had some mad mom's come up to me and give me an earful, man!! I remained calm and just kept saying, yes ma'am yes ma'am, it will never happen again. All the while, inside, I was laughing my butt off😁. That bishop was mad for a while, he got over it though.

I was the Blazer Scout leader in our ward for a time. I am also an Army veteran who knows his way around maps and compasses. I took my Scouts out to a scout reservation, and gave them instruction on land navigation, including measuring distance travelled using paces, how to measure the width of a river and the height of trees, and so on, and how to use a magnetic compass. I had previously sited a case of MREs in a large prairie, and then gave them instructions as a group to walk certain distances on compass headings, and had them follow the directions to find their lunch. They enjoyed the heck out it.

The next day at church one of the boys' fathers complained to me that I had forced him to find his lunch! I don't know what this brother was on about, because his son was one of the most enthusiastic boys I had, and loved the search for food. Overprotective parents. 

 

[AtlanticMike]

18 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I was the Blazer Scout leader in our ward for a time. I am also an Army veteran who knows his way around maps and compasses. I took my Scouts out to a scout reservation, and gave them instruction on land navigation, including measuring distance travelled using paces, how to measure the width of a river and the height of trees, and so on, and how to use a magnetic compass. I had previously sited a case of MREs in a large prairie, and then gave them instructions as a group to walk certain distances on compass headings, and had them follow the directions to find their lunch. They enjoyed the heck out it.

The next day at church one of the boys' fathers complained to me that I had forced him to find his lunch! I don't know what this brother was on about, because his son was one of the most enthusiastic boys I had, and loved the search for food. Overprotective parents. 

 

Kids all around the world go days without food and we have people here that get mad if little Timmy goes till 2:30 without a nutritious meal! We're doomed I tell ya, were doomed😂.

[jkwilliams]

9 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Besides, it tamped down the amebic dissentary . 😰

I wish. 

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

... I agree that people taking advantage of others by selling crack or meth is evil, but ultimately it's our decision to partake of any substance we put in our body.

Even if addiction has taken away our free will?  Yes, every addiction starts with a choice, but the reason why addiction is so pernicious, and one reason why we are counseled (commanded) to avoid addictive substances is because, once addicted, we become slaves to our "desires, appetites, and passions."  Seeking out ways to obtain what was once the "drug of choice" comes, more and more, to dominate our thoughts and our efforts, and, often, leads us to take advantage of, to betray, and otherwise to mistreat those closest to us.

Quote

 

    As Mormons, do we consider the Budweiser corparstion  evil, how bout Jim Beam, the guy who makes beer in his garage, Brigham Young selling alcohol, and so on. Where do you draw the line on what purveyors are evil and who isn't?

"Evil," per se?  For the responsible consumer who partakes in moderation because s/he is not under covenant to avoid such substances, perhaps not, but, where, in former times, perhaps one was better off consuming beer than s/he was consuming unsanitary water, today, when sanitary water is plentiful in many parts of the world (and, where it is not, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is hard at work with our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters and others in efforts to ameliorate that situation) that is no longer the case. 

Given the fact that alcohol is at the root of so much crime, family dysfunction, interpersonal conflict, lack of work and societal productivity, and traffic accidents that cause such widespread injury, misery, and death, Where do I draw the line?  I "draw the line" at not partaking of substances of which that I have covenanted, both at baptism and when I was endowed, not to partake.  Where would I encourage someone else who has not made such covenants to draw the line if s/he cannot partake in moderation and, if, therefore, alcohol has an obvious, evident, serious deleterious effect on his or her life and on the lives of those around him or her?  For the good of society, for the good of his or her family, friends, bosses, and coworkers, and for his or her own good, I would encourage him or her to not partake even though s/he is not under covenant to avoid such substances.  Having said all of that, again, don't forget that I place at least some of the blame for the deleterious effects of these substances on society on those who purvey them rather than on those who use or abuse them.

Brigham Young hasn't been Prophet, Seer, Revelator, and President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for 144 years.  He was not under covenant to avoid such substances.  I am.  That was then, this is now.  Vive le difference!  God has revealed "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little" information to Brother Brigham's successors, and, thence, from them to me, "further light and knowledge" that he did not have.  Hallelujah!

Edited June 13, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

That's evil, I tell ya!  Eeeeee-vuhl!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[strappinglad]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I wish. 

Coca Cola was the first line if defense. If it didn't work , get ye to the farmacia for some diodoquin (sp) . If that didn't work , get ye to the ER cause you are in trouble buddy. 

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Coca Cola was the first line if defense. If it didn't work , get ye to the farmacia for some diodoquin (sp) . If that didn't work , get ye to the ER cause you are in trouble buddy. 

Coke does nothing for intestinal worms or other parasites. And of course, there weren’t readily available medical resources in my mission. 

[Bernard Gui]

On 6/12/2021 at 7:00 AM, secondclasscitizen said:

On the night of the martyrdom Joseph smith sent for some wine, pipes and some papers of tobacco. We know for sure they drank the wine to bring up their spirits. I don’t recall if they smoked the pipes but they (Richards, hyrum, taylor and Joseph) did pass the bottle around. 
 

You did the right thing. The bishop should have been slapped for being so insufferable. 

Nope.

 

[Bernard Gui]

20 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Besides, it tamped down the amebic dissentary . 😰

That and the dreaded gambu. That’s what we believed in Central America, but our mission President,a licensed pharmacist, debunked the myth. He knew some medications that were effective, but even with those some elders ended up in the hospital. Still, it was one of the few things we could safely drink. That was not an issue with the president. Ever get the bad burps?

Edited June 14, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[poptart]

18 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

They’re gateway drugs. 😂

Most LDS I know don’t consider them tools of the devil, per se, just substances God has told us not to ingest. 

So, how does that work?  I mean, coffee isn't nearly as bad as say coke/pepsi yet you guys drink the later more than the former.  

18 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You clearly made the right call on that issue, and you certainly helped that bishop be a better man.  On occasion I have had to take a stand or ask a question, only to find that others who were more timid came up to me later and thanked me.

Among Jews, I have occasionally run across someone who had an ancestor who took a vow a couple of generation earlier -- a vow which was promised to last for a certain number of generations:  A deal made with the Lord, that, if you will protect me in this situation, I and my descendents will not eat fish for 7 generations.  That may sound silly to someone not from the orthodox Jewish world, but they take it very seriously.  Same applies to Nazirite vows not to drink alcohol nor to cut one's hair.  They are sacred vows.  Jesus drank wine, and so did Joseph Smith, and the Word of Wisdom was originally only meant as advisement.  Today it has become a kind of Nazirite vow for the entire LDS Church.  Access to the temple is denied to those who cannot abide by its rules (whatever they are supposed to be).

Had no idea people still did that, interesting.  Thanks for sharing, as always you make insightful posts.  BTW, been meaning to ask, your icon, what does it mean?  

18 hours ago, Calm said:

Since we are discussing being careful...it is not “all it takes”, but I agree with the sentiment behind the phrase...just not the phrase...we need to be careful to not add to the complex of causes, the overall vulnerability of the individual.

As someone who still has triggers, I agree with you.  

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The Word of Wisdom suggests that there are some jerks out there using them to harm people. Tools of the devil might be a bit of a stretch.

Wish we could add pharma to the list.  I think people like to blame the devil a bit too much, it's the devil in the mirror not the one with the pitchfork and red PJ's who cause most of the problems in the world I think.

15 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think they can be considered as such "In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days," otherwise they can be used for good, or are simply plant byproducts sitting on a shelf (like a lot of Bibles).

>Like a lot of Bibles.

Wow, now that's insightful.  I inherited a ton of bibles when the clergy relatives I had passed away.  Outside of the King James ones and the other translations the gems are the the Orthodox ones, those get to sit next to the altar bible and Catholic one I have.  Think they've seen more use from me than they did the decades they were sitting on the shelves neglected.  It's interesting, so many people of faith either just leave the things on display as a show piece or go to church, run their mouths off but miss the point.  

14 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Around 50 years ago, the President's Council on Drug Abuse declared that alcohol was the most dangerous drug in America, and we read regularly about entire families wiped out by DUI drivers heedless of anything other than their own addiction.  The cost of excessive alcohol use in the U.S. was almost a quarter trillion dollars in 2010.  Excessive alcohol use is known to kill more than 95,000 people in the United States each year (2010).  in 2018, more than half of the US adult population drank alcohol in the past 30 days. About 16% of the adult population reported binge drinking, and 7% reported heavy drinking.  Utah has the lowest cost per capita from drinking.  https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/data-stats.htm .  Nearly every film made by Hollywood features heavy drinking by the male and female leads.

We had 49,860 opioid overdose deaths in 2019 out of a total of 70,630 general drug overdose deaths for 2019 (many more than we lost in the ten year Vietnam War).  The so-called "War on Drugs" in America, which has been going on for the last half-century, has been a total failure.  Yet no one in politics or law enforcement is willing to admit that failure.  Nor are they willing to admit that Mexico is now run by the Drug cartels.

The simple truth is that one should not use drugs, and that includes marijuana, nicotine, and alcohol.  Young people need to be told on no uncertain terms what awaits them when they exercise poor judgment -- premature death and general unhappiness..

Have sources for that?  I would really love to see what the LDS church has.  As someone who got to spend all of yesterday in the ER after mom gave herself some insulin without checking her blood sugar I had time to talk to all the nurses and doctors visiting us about a lot of things, career advice, care for mom and what not.  One of the last things I asked before mom was let out (thank God) was about how many more alcohol and substance related things they've seen in the ER, response from the nurse was a ton.  This is outside of Denver proper.  Scary times.   

 

14 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I don't anymore but growing up I sure did. Also cussing, I had a couple cousins that said "oh my god" all the time, and I knew for sure they were going to hell. I've had to work hard over the years to not judge. I finally realized, my judging, was probably 10 times worse than what they were doing. Once I figured that out, made life more enjoyable because I could accept people for who they are at that very moment and not worry about what I thought God might want them to be.

You really are one of the cool Mormons.  Going to see a few cousins in a month, hoping to meet some of the LDS ones.  One of them had their kids sent home early from their mission, poor guy caught covid I think.  Beer is ok but geez it stinks.  I sometimes make my own mead mostly because it gives me an excuse to play hippie pagan music while I put honey, yeast and other things in gallon jugs then leave them to ferment.  

 

 

Edited June 13, 2021 by poptart

[jkwilliams]

11 minutes ago, poptart said:

So, how does that work?  I mean, coffee isn't nearly as bad as say coke/pepsi yet you guys drink the later more than the former.  

I think the LDS response is that God proscribed coffee, not Coke or Pepsi. 

[The Nehor]

33 minutes ago, poptart said:

Wish we could add pharma to the list.  I think people like to blame the devil a bit too much, it's the devil in the mirror not the one with the pitchfork and red PJ's who cause most of the problems in the world I think.

There is the saying that usually God answers prayers through other people. The devil does the same thing.

[secondclasscitizen]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Nope.

 

Ok I’ll mark one down for no. Thanks 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, poptart said:

...................., your icon, what does it mean?  

Hebrew for "Holiness to the Lord."

2 hours ago, poptart said:

..........................................

Have sources for that? ...............

Check that CDC source I provided.

[jkwilliams]

If there is a devil, his most effective tools are judgmentalism, tribalism, intolerance, and selfishness. 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I think the LDS response is that God proscribed coffee, not Coke or Pepsi. 

My mother loved Coca Cola, while my late wife was hooked on Pepsi (she'd get a headache if she didn't get her daily dose).

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

My mother loved Coca Cola, while my late wife was hooked on Pepsi (she'd get a headache if she didn't get her daily dose).

I didn’t realize you had lost your wife. I’m sorry to hear that. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

I didn’t realize you had lost your wife. I’m sorry to hear that. 

Thanks.  She was only 71.

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

If there is a devil, his most effective tools are judgmentalism, tribalism, intolerance, and selfishness. 

Having had firsthand experience with the devastation of addiction, I would not put many things above it in terms of evil and destruction.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Bernard Gui