Sexual harassment and tax problems for dehlin or not?

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

A sexual act does not have to involve intercourse and I never made that claim. 

Yes, I believe they have both admitted that the affair was sexual. 

[2BizE]

Let me throw my thoughts into the ring.

1) I like John D.  I think he is doing great work with his Mormon Stories podcasts. I listen to many of them and I appreciate the different perspectives

2) I’m not worried about the donations he receives. I think he has been quite transparent. It’s not like he is hiding and hoarding $100 Billion in donated blessings.

3) I don’t like the sexual impropriety.  I think it is wrong. There was discussion on it being consensual. I don’t think each of their spouses consented to this dirty, nasty scrape.

4) There was a pretty good discussion about this on Mormonism Live with Bill Reel and RFM.

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

A sexual act does not have to involve intercourse and I never made that claim. 

Glad we agree there. 

[Calm]

Natasha Helfer, Dehlin’s proxy defender on Reel’s podcast and a sex therapist described it as an affair. I am going with her usage as well as the descriptions of RB of what they did (meet in hotel room, etc) that Dehlin appears to either confirm or not deny (I realize they are not the same, but Dehlin or his Reps are comfortable denying plenty).

https://dearjohndehlin.wordpress.com/2021/04/30/john-dehlin-doxxes-rosebud-via-bill-ree-confirming-her-relationship-allegations/

Edited May 19, 2021 by Calm

[smac97]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Quote

Quote

I doubt the board would have had a problem with a "supervisor" having a relationship with a "subordinate".

Are you sure?  Nepotism/favoritism/cronyism would not be a concern?

I use words like “I doubt” and literally “I’m not sure” and yet you ask this twice.

"I doubt" and "I'm not sure" are typically meant as a soft-pedaled version of "I don't think that..."  And I was going for civil disagreement, that's all.

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

When your interpretation / reading comprehension is this poor I’m not sure a productive conversation is possible. Thanks -John

As you like.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Teancum]

12 hours ago, bluebell said:

It all comes down to whether or not a post is reported. Nemesis reacts equally to believers and critics, when he’s aware of the post.

That’s the rub. 

So getting locked out of a thread is because someone reported or complained about a post?  I don't even know how to do that.

[Teancum]

12 hours ago, bluebell said:

Didn’t JD also get money for things like groceries?

I have to think he was simply paid a salary and then paid for personal expenses out of that. You would have to be pretty dumb to have a NFP you are running directly pay personal expenses like groceries. I would also think/hope that Dehlin engaged a competent tax advisor regarding all of this. 

[Fair Dinkum]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

Natasha Helfer, Dehlin’s proxy defender on Reel’s podcast and a sex therapist described it as an affair. I am going with her usage as well as the descriptions of RB of what they did (meet in hotel room, etc) that Dehlin appears to either confirm or not deny (I realize they are not the same, but Dehlin or his Reps are comfortable denying plenty).

https://dearjohndehlin.wordpress.com/2021/04/30/john-dehlin-doxxes-rosebud-via-bill-ree-confirming-her-relationship-allegations/

Quote

From your link: By her own account, this involved limited sexual contact that did not include intercourse, though it did involve groping.

This sounds more like foreplay or petting and I again state that none of us really know what took place

Edited May 19, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

So getting locked out of a thread is because someone reported or complained about a post?  I don't even know how to do that.

The mods have often said that they seldom read the threads, so they only know about problems when people report posts.  Click on the three dots at the right top side of any post and it will give you the option of reporting it and giving a reason why.

Obviously the mods won't find all reported posts problematic, but if you want to get their attention that's how.

[Teancum]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

Are you a tax expert or giving your nonprofessional opinion?  Just so everyone can place the context of your comment.

I am not sure of the point of your post in relation to anything I have asked or stated. As far as I know GA’s don’t go public asking people to donate money to pay for stuff for them personally in addition to what is contracted to be paid already by the Church.  Since my question in regards to JD’s income has to do with whether JD asking for donations to go directly to his own expenses and whether or not that qualifies as inurement as RB claims, not seeing the relevance of that GAs are paid.  
 

Just to be clear, I am not claiming it was immoral or anything. Dehlin wasn’t hiding he was taking the money as far as I can tell. Just curious about whether it is actually a tax issue or not. 

as noted I would assume that the personal expenses were paid out of a salary.  A salary and reimbursements for business related out of pocket expenses is typically quite fine.

[ttribe]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

I have to think he was simply paid a salary and then paid for personal expenses out of that. You would have to be pretty dumb to have a NFP you are running directly pay personal expenses like groceries. I would also think/hope that Dehlin engaged a competent tax advisor regarding all of this. 

Never underestimate the power of dumb.

[Teancum]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

Natasha Helfer, Dehlin’s proxy defender on Reel’s podcast and a sex therapist described it as an affair. I am going with her usage as well as the descriptions of RB of what they did (meet in hotel room, etc) that Dehlin appears to either confirm or not deny (I realize they are not the same, but Dehlin or his Reps are comfortable denying plenty).

https://dearjohndehlin.wordpress.com/2021/04/30/john-dehlin-doxxes-rosebud-via-bill-ree-confirming-her-relationship-allegations/

Why the passive aggressive slight against Helfer?  

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Why the passive aggressive slight against Helfer?  

How is describing Helfer-Parker as "Dehlin's proxy defender" a "slight?"

I think Calm's point is that Helfer-Parker is aligned with Dehlin, and even she has described Dehlin's relationship with Rosebud as an affair.  So "affair" seems to be an apt descriptor if even his most visible supporter is using it.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Tacenda]

deleted

Edited May 19, 2021 by Tacenda

[ttribe]

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

How is describing Helfer-Parker as "Dehlin's proxy defender" a "slight?"

I think Calm's point is that Helfer-Parker is aligned with Dehlin, and even she has described Dehlin's relationship with Rosebud as an affair.  So "affair" seems to be an apt descriptor if even his most visible supporter is using it.

Thanks,

-Smac

'Affair' is the correct term; not sure why there's any controversy on that.  In fact, I've witnessed a social media discussion about this matter between someone I know and Mr. Dehlin in which the term was used several times and Mr. Dehlin made no objection to its use.

[ttribe]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Listened to the podcast mentioned, or some of it, and Rosebud's real name was announced. Went to her FB and yep that's her. Do I have permission to say the name, it may help with the discussion. She apparently is out and speaks her mind on FB.

Despite the fact that she has repeatedly put her real name out there on this over the years, she has also said asked that it not be used.  I realize that's in direct conflict with her own actions and more than a little crazy, but I choose to respect her request for preserving what little morsel of anonymity she might have left.

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, ttribe said:

'Affair' is the correct term; not sure why there's any controversy on that.  

The subject came up when Fair Dinkum rejected the use of the term "affair" as a valid description of what happened between RB and JD.

[JamesBYoung]

I do know that Rosebud has attacked Dehlin, Lindsay Hansen Park, and others when she gets questioned as to the correctness and propriety of her own roles or to her attacks on others and their roles.

She really is not worth the time to argue about.

ps: My take, otoh, is that yes it was an affair and not an improper advance by JD.

Edited May 19, 2021 by JamesBYoung

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Despite the fact that she has repeatedly put her real name out there on this over the years, she has also said asked that it not be used.  I realize that's in direct conflict with her own actions and more than a little crazy, but I choose to respect her request for preserving what little morsel of anonymity she might have left.

Understand and deleting my comment pronto.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

16 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Despite the fact that she has repeatedly put her real name out there on this over the years, she has also said asked that it not be used.  I realize that's in direct conflict with her own actions and more than a little crazy, but I choose to respect her request for preserving what little morsel of anonymity she might have left.

Maybe delete my comment, since I deleted it. 

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

I do know that Rosebud has attacked Dehlin, Lindsay Hansen Park, and others when she gets questioned as to the correctness and propriety of her own roles or to her attacks on others and their roles.

She really is not worth the time to argue about.

ps: My take, otoh, is that yes it was an affair and not an improper advance by JD.

It was an affair and it was also an improper advance by JD.  Because they were both married every advance, by both of them, was improper.

I agree RB sounds like a real mess.  And JD seems to be an equal mess (and huge jerk).  It probably makes sense that they were attracted to each other and I guess they can thank karma for the huge mess that they've both created and get to suffer through.

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It was an affair and it was also an improper advance by JD.  Because they were both married every advance, by both of them, was improper.

I agree RB sounds like a real mess.  And JD seems to be an equal mess (and huge jerk).  It probably makes sense that they were attracted to each other and I guess they can thank karma for the huge mess that they've both created and get to suffer through.

After listening to her interview, he sure is a jerk. If what she says is correct. But him doing things to her sexually as if it's sex therapy is hideous, if true. And if he indeed is for the cause of the LGBTQ and for women's concerns, he seems fake, if what she said is true. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Tacenda

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, ttribe said:

'Affair' is the correct term; not sure why there's any controversy on that.  

I think it terms like "affair" and "admitted adulterer" are going to be hard for Dehlin's admirers to accept, despite their accuracy.

When all is said and done, adultery is one of the few topics about which vestigial notions of morality continue to have broad social support (in the U.S., anyway).  See, e.g., here (from 2013) :

Quote

Americans condemn adultery, but many Europeans don’t — and probably never will

By 

Rick Noack

May 17, 2016 at 3:00 a.m. MDT

In some regards, Americans and Europeans could not be more different. Germans are known for their nudist beaches, which will be crowded in the coming months, for instance. In the United States, nudity is less welcome, to say the least. Nearly all Europeans are also okay with premarital sex, but every third American thinks it is unacceptable.

 

And then there's a big one: adultery.

While 84 percent of Americans surveyed believe that adultery is unacceptable, only 47 percent of all French and 60 percent of all Germans think so. 

And here (also from 2013) :

Quote

How Marital Infidelity Became America's Last Sexual Taboo

As Americans increasingly embrace a range of behaviors, they're less and less permissive of cheating.

HUGO SCHWYZER

MAY 29, 2013

Having an affair is one of the most immoral things you can do, according to a new Gallup poll. As Eleanor Barkhorn reported last week, a survey of 1,535 American adults found that 91 percent considered extramarital infidelity to be morally wrong, a higher percentage than objected to human cloning, suicide, and polygamy. The poll aside, it's difficult to think of any other relatively common and technically legal (adulterous affairs are no longer subject to criminal sanction) practice of which more of us disapprove.

And here (from 2018) :

Quote

World Agrees: Adultery, While Prevalent, Is Wrong

Media reports highlight adultery among political leaders and celebrities, and such visibility could erode moral objections

Joseph Chamie

Thursday, April 12, 2018

 

NEW YORK: Adultery, despite near universal disapproval, has become more visible and prevalent worldwide, challenging established morals of acceptable behavior. Daily news headlines list extramarital affairs of heads of state, government officials, celebrities and other elites. In many instances, extramarital affairs among high-level officials are open secrets, tolerated until other corruption or crimes are uncovered. In addition, social media, technology, and modern lifestyles facilitate adultery.

...

While religious doctrines still condemn adultery, social norms and laws have changed. Adultery continues to be strictly prohibited in some countries like Pakistan, Philippines, Saudi Arabia and Somalia, yet is decriminalized in nearly all industrial societies. A notable exception to decriminalization of adultery among developed countries is the United States, where it remains a criminal offense in 21 states: Various forms of adultery are a misdemeanor in Florida, New York and Utah and a felony in Massachusetts, Michigan and Wisconsin. Prosecutions are rare.

While severe punishments for adultery have by and large disappeared, the majorities of the general public in virtually every country still view adultery as immoral. A global survey across 40 countries, covering three-fourths of the world’s population, found 78 percent suggesting that married people having an affair was morally unacceptable. The study’s notable exception was France, where 47 percent said an extramarital affair was morally suspect.

I think this is a prime motivator in trying to characterize Joseph Smith as an adulterer, as it would taint his morality and authority.

I think some people who leave the Church have simply switched out one set of leaders (the General Authorities) for another of their choosing (John Dehlin, Denver Snuffer, etc.).  I also think some of these people have developed a narrative for themselves that leaving the Church is progression.  An evolution above and beyond the absurd and stodgy ethics taught by the Church.  And then John Dehlin is revealed to be a long-term adulterer.  Tom Kimball's sexual abuse has also come to light.  Critics who have built an identity that involves elevating themselves above and beyond the puerile and insipid moral/ethical framework of the Church can run into some big-time cognitive dissonance in such circumstances.

As for the Latter-day Saints, we need to keep our own house in order.  We can't wink at or ignore serious misconduct, even when it involves a prominent member of the Church (particularly when, actually).  

Thanks,

-Smac

[ttribe]

22 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe delete my comment, since I deleted it. 

Oh, I think your comment is okay and I suspect a number of people were thinking the same thing about her real life identity.  Your willingness to not post her name is noteworthy, as well.

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think it terms like "affair" and "admitted adulterer" are going to be hard for Dehlin's admirers to accept, despite their accuracy.

When all is said and done, adultery is one of the few topics about which vestigial notions of morality continue to have broad social support (in the U.S., anyway).  See, e.g., here (from 2013) :

And here (also from 2013) :

And here (from 2018) :

I think this is a prime motivator in trying to characterize Joseph Smith as an adulterer, as it would taint his morality and authority.

I think some people who leave the Church have simply switched out one set of leaders (the General Authorities) for another of their choosing (John Dehlin, Denver Snuffer, etc.).  I also think some of these people have developed a narrative for themselves that leaving the Church is progression.  An evolution above and beyond the absurd and stodgy ethics taught by the Church.  And then John Dehlin is revealed to be a long-term adulterer.  Tom Kimball's sexual abuse has also come to light.  Critics who have built an identity that involves elevating themselves above and beyond the puerile and insipid moral/ethical framework of the Church can run into some big-time cognitive dissonance in such circumstances.

As for the Latter-day Saints, we need to keep our own house in order.  We can't wink at or ignore serious misconduct, even when it involves a prominent member of the Church (particularly when, actually).  

Thanks,

-Smac

You're right. Last night, my husband asked what I was listening to and it was the interview with Rosebud and I told my husband about the affair with JD. And then I told him that I thought it stunk and how leaving the church might precipitate things like that. And then he reminded me of the two second counselors in the bishopric of two previous wards that cheated on their wives. So I did stop and think about that one. Active believing members of the church are not totally exempt or safe from acting badly.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Tacenda