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President oaks on the constitution


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34 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Constitutions are great and all, but they only work if everyone agrees to the terms and conditions. I live abroad. We've gone through six different constitutions (all of them based on the US constitution) since I arrived because politicians always seem to find a way to tip the balances in their favor. The country next door to me has a constitution too, also based on the US Constitution, but people are now being shot dead in the streets because one party got this brilliant idea from somewhere (I dare not say where) that they could simply dispute the elections if they didn't like the results. 

Constitutions might be divinely inspired, but President Oakes seems to be warning us that we shouldn't lean too heavily on a document that doesn't live and adapt right along side of us.

I am in the UK which has no written constitution, that is all right by me.  When people turn wicked paper will not protect you.  

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1 hour ago, Metis_LDS said:

I am in the UK which has no written constitution, that is all right by me.  When people turn wicked paper will not protect you.  

I'm an American living in the UK, and you're right about the wickedness of people. But as unwritten as the UK constitution is, it still exists. And as President Oaks said, the unwritten constitution of the UK helped inspire the US constitution. I do note, however, that as much as the UK constitution is "unwritten", it is nevertheless found in written documents -- including Common Law and the stare decisis of previous decision in the various courts.

An interesting feature of the unwritten law is that I have seen English common law and some decisions of English courts used as authority for some decisions in US courts. In fact, you will find common law to be written into most US state codes (except Louisiana, which uses an evolved Roman civil law). The one most familiar to me, the Washington state code, states that the common law is the rule of decision in state courts (Extent to which common law prevails).

The Book of Mormon actually advocates for a constitution or form of government that entrusts power to the people. As King Mosiah wrote:

Therefore, if it were possible that you could have just men to be your kings, who would establish the laws of God, and judge this people according to his commandments, yea, if ye could have men for your kings who would do even as my father Benjamin did for this people—I say unto you, if this could always be the case then it would be expedient that ye should always have kings to rule over you. [Mosiah 29:13]

Now I say unto you, that because all men are not just it is not expedient that ye should have a king or kings to rule over you. (Mosiah 29:16]

Therefore, choose you by the voice of this people, judges, that ye may be judged according to the claws which have been given you by our fathers, which are correct, and which were given them by the hand of the Lord.
Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law — to do your business by the voice of the people. [
Mosiah 29:25]

But Mosiah warned, as you indicated:

And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land. [Mosiah 29:27]

And indeed, that's exactly what happened, eventually:

For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted. [Helaman 5:2]

BUT, despite the possibility that the voice of the people might (or will, eventually) choose evil over good, this does not militate against the desirability of a constitution, either written or unwritten.

 

Edited by Stargazer
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20 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Srt is a subtitle/captioning format.

Okay, but how did you obtain the text?

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2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

What, please, is an "srt"?

Subtitle file (subrip).

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2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Since the talk still isn't available in text form, here it is after I've meddled with the formatting:

Nice work on that. I think that's beyond what notepad++ is capable of.

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5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Again, it was Peacefully who first used the expression “American exceptionalism” in this thread. But when she obliquely applied that term to President Oaks’s general conference talk, do you really think she was accusing him of standing up for mobs and bigots? I doubt it, but I’ll let you take that up with her. 

You are correct, I was not implying that. I just felt it was a bit of a tone-deaf talk when we seemed to be celebrating our internationalism.

Edited by Peacefully
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9 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I wondered how non-US members felt about the talk, especially after the international morning session. It seemed like one minute we were trumpeting the world-wide Church and the next we were back to American exceptionalism. I was glad he brought it around to people voting their conscience. 

the chatter on FB seems to be it came out of left field like Elder Andersen's talk and "I hope our investigators want to keep investigating" but you're right he brought it back at the end

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Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Thank you for making clear your intended meaning; the Nehor seemed a bit confused. 
 

I would suggest that President Oaks’s talk only seems “tone deaf” if one believes — wrongly, in my view — that we cannot appreciate — even love — other lands and cultures while at the same time believing what the Lord said in the revelations about having raised up “wise men” to established the U.S. Constitution for the protection of “all flesh.”

do you think that was a timely talk on the day when we celebrate the Resurrection of Christ? Why not not celebrate how Christ was raised up? just a thought!

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Duncan said:

do you think that was a timely talk on the day when we celebrate the Resurrection of Christ? Why not not celebrate how Christ was raised up? just a thought!

I think anything that celebrates what the Lord has done for us — including the raising up of wise men to establish a document to safeguard our moral agency against tyranny — is an appropriate topic for Easter Sunday. So, yes. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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8 minutes ago, Duncan said:

the chatter on FB seems to be it came out of left field like Elder Andersen's talk and "I hope our investigators want to keep investigating" but you're right he brought it back at the end

On any given day, there’s a lot of foolish chatter on Facebook. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

I am in the UK which has no written constitution, that is all right by me.  When people turn wicked paper will not protect you.  

We hope that written content might help hinder the majority from turning wicked in the first place. That’s why we have the scriptures. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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53 minutes ago, Chum said:

Nice work on that. I think that's beyond what notepad++ is capable of.

You use notepad++, too? Slick! I use notepad++ for quite a bit of reformatting of text, and even coding sometimes because it does good color markup. But it doesn't do some kinds of bulk search/replace functions, such as where tab or crlf characters are concerned (or, it does do this and I don't know how).

What I did was to fire up MS Word and used the case tool to convert all the text casing to "Sentence" case, then did a few bulk replaces (e.g. "united states" to "United States"), fixing titles and so on. Using Visual Studio I then wrote a Windows app in C# to first replace all crlfs with two spaces, then after manually placing crlfs in appropriate places, had the app place tabs after each crlf. 

As a retired computer programmer I find it fun to dust off old skills and make these little apps to do odd tasks.

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23 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think anything that celebrates what the Lord has done for us — including the raising up of wise men to establish a document to safeguard our moral agency against tyranny — is an appropriate topic for Easter Sunday. So, yes. 

okay, next conference I want to hear a talk about how God raised up Nelson Mandela

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31 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

On any given day, there’s a lot of foolish chatter on Facebook. 

Lots of chatter on Reddit’s faithful board. They dedicated a thread to it yesterday with almost 500 comments. They locked it before it got heated or off-topic which I think means it was getting heated and off-topic:)

Edited by Peacefully
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Just now, Duncan said:

okay, next conference I want to hear a talk about how God raised up Nelson Mandela or William Wallace, Elizabeth Fry would be nice

 

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Duncan said:

okay, next conference I want to hear a talk about how God raised up Nelson Mandela

It would be OK with me. I certainly wouldn’t be upset by it as you obviously are with President Oaks’s talk — and his talk has scriptural backing, with the words of Jesus Christ!

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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13 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Lots of chatter on Reddit’s faithful board. They dedicated a thread to it yesterday with almost 500 comments. They locked it before it got heated or off-topic which I think means it was getting heated and off-topic:)

I don’t frequent Reddit, so I haven’t seen what you’re referring to. But if people are on there publicly disparaging the words of an apostle and member of the First Presidency, I question the descriptor “faithful”. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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Amazing to me an apostle of the Jesus Christ, and a spiritual leader in the community, didn't mention Jesus Christ once in his conference talk. On Easter. This was an "all about me" talk by Oaks, a lesson in bravado and self indulgence by a man. Sad to see the Savior of the world get overshadowed on an important remembrance day.  

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26 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I use notepad++ for quite a bit of reformatting of text, and even coding sometimes because it does good color markup. But it doesn't do some kinds of bulk search/replace functions, such as where tab or crlf characters are concerned

It usually can. \t for tab \r\n for linefeed - search set for extended.

You ever do any Church related coding projects? We could start a thread.

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36 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think anything that celebrates what the Lord has done for us — including the raising up of wise men to establish a document to safeguard our moral agency against tyranny — is an appropriate topic for Easter Sunday. So, yes. 

In consideration of the fact that it’s the atoning sacrifice of our Savior that enables us to have agency and be free, I would say the preservation of our divinely inspired Constitution is indeed an appropriate subject for an Easter Sunday address, especially in light of the fact that our God given rights are being threatened as never before. It’s somewhat akin to asking if it was appropriate for Brigham Young to cancel General Conference so the focus of the Church could be centered on saving the stranded handcart pioneers. 

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7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It would be OK with me. I certainly wouldn’t be upset by it as you obviously are with President Oaks’s talk — and his talk has scriptural backing! 

oh, I am sure someone could figure out how to put all those people in the scriptures too! if you can see Santa Claus in Zechariah 2:6 then Nelson Mandela would be a snap!

"Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD"

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