The Pronoun Wars Continue

[Meadowchik]

2 minutes ago, longview said:

Your points are very disjointed.  You and I and everybody on this board know there are a wide variety of views of all kinds.  I am using the term "enforcer" along the same line as a mob crime family where the Godfather runs a large operation with his soldiers who enforce their ill-gotten gains by punishing insiders that stray from strict obedience to the mob and hurting or murdering outsiders that threaten their conspiracy.  This description is very applicable to every communist dictatorship throughout history (some of them even make themselves out to be god).

As for the Church, many leaders have warned against the ever increasing encroachments of socialism and communism.  A few of the prophets have specifically warned of combinations that work for the enslavement of the world.  Some, like President Marion G Romney have counseled against the "narcotic of socialism" (gullible gulls) - - - read https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1984/06/the-celestial-nature-of-self-reliance?lang=eng

Who gets to decide? Not the radical professors.  Not the social engineers.  Not the judges that legislate from the bench.  Not the paid street thugs.  Not the cronyism that subvert the will of the people.  Not those that sneer at the Constitution and make end runs around it (even while sometimes paying lip service to it).

The church literally requested people to stop using a common moniker that was previously encouraged by the church. So is that Orwellian or not?

 

[Kenngo1969]

36 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

That is ridiculous. I didn’t even use the word “Rightthink”. I am getting sick of all the Orwell references from people who I keep suspecting have never actually read Orwell. It is also odd that they want to pull Orwell in as a kind of supporter when Orwell would have despised their own politics.

Oh, noes! 

Oh, noes!! 

We're making The Nehor

sick! 

Gaaaaah!!

[longview]

5 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

The church literally requested people to stop using a common moniker that was previously encouraged by the church. So is that Orwellian or not?

 

You mean the term "mormon" ?  In what way could it be Orwellian?  The Church is simply making a gentle polite request of people of good will to use the formal name.  Something that leaders in the past has spoken about but now Pres. Nelson has strongly encouraged the members to make that extra effort.  Your argument is pointless.

[The Nehor]

39 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

"The people who paid his salary"?  Who are they?

Presumably the students paying their tuition which has risen disproportionately with inflation for years.

37 minutes ago, longview said:

You are squirming in the hot seat.

No, I am sitting in the catbird seat.

That is what I call my hammock. It is nice out here today.

[The Nehor]

31 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Oh, noes! 

Oh, noes!! 

We're making The Nehor

sick! 

Gaaaaah!!

[longview]

31 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

"The people who paid his salary"?  Who are they?

Presumably the students paying their tuition which has risen disproportionately with inflation for years.

Only a socialist would think like this.  Tuition did not merely rise with inflation.  It sky-rocketed above the rate of inflation.  Because of government involvement with grants and scholarships, the market has been grossly distorted.  College/university administrators are relishing the gravy train.  Professors are making six figures but only teach a few hours per week.

[carbon dioxide]

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Do you expect people to refer to you by your legal or preferred name? Or do you allow people to refer to you by name they deem appropriate for you?

I really don't care.  If someone wants to call me Bob, Steve, Larry, Moe, or Curly it does not matter.  I have a co worker who constantly refers to me as El Chapo even though I am not short, Mexican, or a drug dealer.  He does it in fun so it does not bother me.   I believe in freedom of speech.  My problem is government or corporation deciding for me what words I can and can't use.  If someone wants to call Caitlyn Jenner by that name, that is their right.  For me, I don't use that name.  For me, I will not be changing my pronouns for transgenders because that would in principle show my acceptance to the whole thing. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by carbon dioxide

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, longview said:

Professors are making six figures but only teach a few hours per week.

My brother is a professor, makes six figures, and doesn't teach at all.

Then again, he was hired as a research professor and brings in multi-million dollar grants.

My father was a professor. Teaching was only about 1/3 of his contractual responsibility (the rest was research and some cooperative extension service).

Teaching is usually not the prime responsibility, as in over 50%, for professors.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, longview said:

Only a socialist would think like this.  Tuition did not merely rise with inflation.  It sky-rocketed above the rate of inflation.  Because of government involvement with grants and scholarships, the market has been grossly distorted.  College/university administrators are relishing the gravy train.  Professors are making six figures but only teach a few hours per week.

I said it rose disproportionately. By that I meant that are not rising equally. By that i meant tuition has skyrocketed. I guess I am not a socialist?

Edited March 27, 2021 by The Nehor

[longview]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

My brother is a professor, makes six figures, and doesn't teach at all.

Then again, he was hired as a research professor and brings in multi-million dollar grants.

My father was a professor. Teaching was only about 1/3 of his contractual responsibility (the rest was research and some cooperative extension service).

Teaching is usually not the prime responsibility, as in over 50%, for professors.

Good to hear!

[longview]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I said it rose disproportionately. By that I meant that are not rising equally. By that i meant tuition has skyrocketed. I guess I am not a socialist?

Well, ok, take your word for it.  My first thoughts were you were glossing over it.

[The Nehor]

21 minutes ago, longview said:

Well, ok, take your word for it.  My first thoughts were you were glossing over it.

If you check my post history I have complained about tuition a lot.

[longview]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If you check my post history I have complained about tuition a lot.

Would you agree that government intervention in education is causing MANY problems:

• serious distortion of tuition and scholarships
• disempowering parents from accountability in the classrooms
• indoctrination of students to become compliant drones in a socialist state
• destabilizing families and engendering more dependence on government
• dumbing down math, science, history, etc
• demonizing the Constitutional Republic
• creating artificial divisions among many segments of the population

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, longview said:

Would you agree that government intervention in education is causing MANY problems:

• serious distortion of tuition and scholarships
• disempowering parents from accountability in the classrooms
• indoctrination of students to become compliant drones in a socialist state
• destabilizing families and engendering more dependence on government
• dumbing down math, science, history, etc
• demonizing the Constitutional Republic
• creating artificial divisions among many segments of the population

I think the main problem is that you can (almost) never discharge student loan debts via bankruptcy which leads to a surplus of available loan money.

Some of these I have no idea what you mean

Disempowering parents from accountability in the classroom? Are we holding parents accountable for what happens in classrooms?

The compliant drones thing is seen differently in other nations. They think it is cultish that we do the “Pledge of Allegiance” so no on that.

Schools are destabilizing families? What? Government sponsored daycare is destabilizing families how?

I don’t think most subjects have been dumbed down. I have been helping my niece and nephew with their virtual learning and I haven’t seen them dumbing things down. The only rationale I have heard for that is that they are changing how they teach some things which causes people to be up in arms for some reason.

The Constitutional Republic is perfect. To say it has done wrong is to poison the children against it. Yeah, no. The Book of Mormon is our holy book and it spends most of the time ragging on the people of the nation for all their faults. We are not collectively better than the Nephites. We need to learn from and correct our mistakes. Pretending they are not there is a recipe for disaster.

Artificial divisions? We have the largest wealth gap in US history, racism and Jim Crow are making serious comebacks, a large portion of the nation needs two wage earners to have a livable lifestyle, and we have political leaders who aren’t even pretending they are interested in representing everyone they are supposed to. And you want me to believe the differences are artificial?

[Meadowchik]

19 hours ago, longview said:

You mean the term "mormon" ?  In what way could it be Orwellian?  The Church is simply making a gentle polite request of people of good will to use the formal name.  Something that leaders in the past has spoken about but now Pres. Nelson has strongly encouraged the members to make that extra effort.  Your argument is pointless.

It's not pointless at all. It is a simple matter of respect to call someone by their name. They get to decide how to be addressed. 

If a business expects its employees to honor that etiquette as well, that is the business's right. 

[Meadowchik]

17 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

I really don't care.  If someone wants to call me Bob, Steve, Larry, Moe, or Curly it does not matter.  I have a co worker who constantly refers to me as El Chapo even though I am not short, Mexican, or a drug dealer.  He does it in fun so it does not bother me.   I believe in freedom of speech.  My problem is government or corporation deciding for me what words I can and can't use.  If someone wants to call Caitlyn Jenner by that name, that is their right.  For me, I don't use that name.  For me, I will not be changing my pronouns for transgenders because that would in principle show my acceptance to the whole thing. 

So since you don't care what others call you, you are going to assume that people who do care how you address them should not care? You won't care about how they want to be addressed?

[longview]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I think the main problem is that you can (almost) never discharge student loan debts via bankruptcy which leads to a surplus of available loan money.

This is a symptom, NOT the cause.  It was a huge mistake for the government to get involved in education to begin with.  The bureaucracy never stops with inserting more and more regulations and mandating ever greater social engineering (sometimes incentives with funds).  It literally flooded the "market" by encouraging too many people to enroll in college and providing generous scholarships.  Naturally educational institutions could easily raise tuition.  If "real market forces" had not been subverted, kids would not be getting 80K dollar loans for enrolling in some bizarre "studies" programs that have zero economic credibility.

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Disempowering parents from accountability in the classroom? Are we holding parents accountable for what happens in classrooms?

I could have worded this a lot better.  I am saying that parents used to be heavily involved many areas of education (schools, classrooms, even districts).  PTAs had a lot more teeth in the old days.  Incompetent teachers were not allowed remain entrenched.  Teachers unions have too much power (the taxpayers are too easily bypassed in fundings and negotiations).  Often parents not notified about dicey sex education presentations and abortion counseling for minors and transgender recruiting and concomitant propaganda.

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The compliant drones thing is seen differently in other nations. They think it is cultish that we do the “Pledge of Allegiance” so no on that.

A huge chasm between you and me.  You are oblivious about the indoctrination for collectivization.  The allegiance promotes greater unity among the citizenry.

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Schools are destabilizing families? What? Government sponsored daycare is destabilizing families how?

Misdirection.

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t think most subjects have been dumbed down.

I suppose you are perfectly happy with how "common core" math is being taught?

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The Constitutional Republic is perfect.

Sadly it is NOT perfect.  Dred Scott decision was a tragedy.  Unconstitutional.  Roe v. Wade was/is BAD law.  You remain oblivious to real history.  But in spite of all the mistakes, the Republic is WORTH fighting for.

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Artificial divisions? We have the largest wealth gap in US history

Only a dyed in the wool socialist would say this.

[The Nehor]

19 minutes ago, longview said:

This is a symptom, NOT the cause.  It was a huge mistake for the government to get involved in education to begin with.  The bureaucracy never stops with inserting more and more regulations and mandating ever greater social engineering (sometimes incentives with funds).  It literally flooded the "market" by encouraging too many people to enroll in college and providing generous scholarships.  Naturally educational institutions could easily raise tuition.  If "real market forces" had not been subverted, kids would not be getting 80K dollar loans for enrolling in some bizarre "studies" programs that have zero economic credibility.

I could have worded this a lot better.  I am saying that parents used to be heavily involved many areas of education (schools, classrooms, even districts).  PTAs had a lot more teeth in the old days.  Incompetent teachers were not allowed remain entrenched.  Teachers unions have too much power (the taxpayers are too easily bypassed in fundings and negotiations).  Often parents not notified about dicey sex education presentations and abortion counseling for minors and transgender recruiting and concomitant propaganda.

A huge chasm between you and me.  You are oblivious about the indoctrination for collectivization.  The allegiance promotes greater unity among the citizenry.

Misdirection.

I suppose you are perfectly happy with how "common core" math is being taught?

Sadly it is NOT perfect.  Dred Scott decision was a tragedy.  Unconstitutional.  Roe v. Wade was/is BAD law.  You remain oblivious to real history.  But in spite of all the mistakes, the Republic is WORTH fighting for.

Only a dyed in the wool socialist would say this.

It is not just a symptom. It is what has caused the problem. The easy availability of loans due to the low risk has spiked upwards the number of people going to school. As to useless study degrees it is a relatively recent phenomenon that caused a degree to be a ticket to economic success. I was reading some sermons given by Brigham Young yesterday and reread one where he talks about how useless a formal education is in securing the necessities of life but that knowledge should be sought for its own sake. We are doing education wrong.

I am personally a little tired of people complaining about teachers agitating for better wages and working conditions. The job has systematically been turned into an underpaid job compared to the number of hours worked and parents too often will take any ‘scandal’ in a teacher’s personal life to be proof they should not work at a school. Then the parents are surprised that the job is too often filled by mediocrities. Unions were a hallmark of the golden age of American capitalism. Complaining they are the doom of everything now is a denial of history.

So the schools do unify us with the pledge but collectivization is bad? Unity or no?

Not misdirection. A reality of what the public school system is.

I have a few minor complaints about common core but in general it is a good intuitive way to learn math. Most of the complaints I hear about it are parents whining that is not exactly the same way they learned it. Okay, learn something new then. It helps that may of the ways they teach math now are “tricks” I taught myself when doing math. It is not foreign to me. Furthermore I have it on good authority that the weirdos who are truly obsessed with math use similar techniques. Teaching it that way is more likely to get us more of these math geniuses who can push the boundaries of knowledge. I think that is worth a bit of parental angst over math being taught a little differently.

Our Democratic Republic is worth fighting for (I worry, possibly needlessly, about why you chose to exclude the first part of that term) but you aren’t going to convince people of that with a call for stasis. The United States is a beautiful experiment. It was an attempt to create a nation without explicit ethnic ties to each other. It was flawed by the horrors of slavery and the dream at first only (barely) belonging to Caucasian Europeans but we got better. Slowly it started to expand and we did away with some evils. I am alarmed by calls that others are not sufficiently “American” and even blatant calls for this to be a white Christian nation. It reminds me of the Israelites calling for a king so they can be like other nations. They want to kill the experiment. I do not intend to go quietly while they do it. I want the United States to meet its potential and to see it fulfill its highest ideals. I have doubts it can be done but I still hope.

A “dyed in the wool socialist” is the only one who can be alarmed at wealth gaps? You are a deluded ideologue. It is a fact. That my belief in that fact can only be explained by my supposed economic views is intellectually bankrupt Bulverism.

Quote

You must show that a man is wrong before you start explaining why he is wrong.

The modern method is to assume without discussion that he is wrong and then distract his attention from this (the only real issue) by busily explaining how he became so silly.

In the course of the last fifteen years I have found this vice so common that I have had to invent a name for it. I call it “Bulverism.” Some day I am going to write the biography of its imaginary inventor, Ezekiel Bulver, whose destiny was determined at the age of five when he heard his mother say to his father — who had been maintaining that two sides of a triangle were together greater than a third — “Oh you say that because you are a man.” “At that moment,” E. Bulver assures us, “there flashed across my opening mind the great truth that refutation is no necessary part of argument. Assume that your opponent is wrong, and explain his error, and the world will be at your feet. Attempt to prove that he is wrong or (worse still) try to find out whether he is wrong or right, and the national dynamism of our age will thrust you to the wall.”

-C.S. Lewis

[smac97]

On 3/26/2021 at 7:00 PM, smac97 said:

Breaking news from the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals:

Boy, there are days I love being an American!

Thanks,

-Smac

Here's another bit of good news:

Quote

A student who was suspended from his public university’s education program for an Instagram video in which he stated “a man is a man and a woman is a woman” has been reinstated by administrators.

Owen Stevens confirmed Wednesday to The College Fix that SUNY-Geneseo has allowed him to continue his education.

“Universities should be a market place of ideas, not an assembly line for one type of thought,” he told The College Fix via email. “Instead of policing speech on social media platforms, they should be engaging in educating future world leaders.”

SUNY-Geneseo media affairs division did not respond to repeated emails and phone calls Wednesday and Thursday from The College Fix seeking comment.

The crux of the controversy centers on a one-minute November 22, 2020, Instagram video in which Stevens stated in part:

“A man is a man. A woman is a woman. A man is not a woman. And a woman is not a man. A man cannot become a woman and a woman cannot become a man. If I am a man and I think I am a woman, I am still a man. If I am woman who thinks I’m a man, I am still a woman. Regardless of what you feel on the inside is irrelevant to your biological status. It doesn’t change the biology.”

In response, the president of the university sent a memo to the campus community pledging allegiance to promoting social justice.
...
According to a suspension letter subsequently sent to Stevens, reported by the Daily Wire, it was stated that Stevens — who is studying to become a teacher — can’t protect the “mental and emotional well-being of all” students in his classes, adding:

You continue to maintain, “I do not recognize the gender that they claim to be if they are not biologically that gender.” This public position is in conflict with the Dignity for All Students Act requiring teachers to maintain a classroom environment protecting the mental and emotional well-being of all students.

Stevens was blocked from continuing his coursework until he took down his Instagram videos, toned down his social media presence, and attend school-sanctioned training, the Wire reported.

I think it is manipulative and specious and pretextual to characterize social media posts as a threat to "the mental and emotional well-being of all students."  The school was out to punish him for the content of his speech.

I think we need to resist such efforts to stifle speech based on viewpoint, because otherwise both the right to Free Speech and the individual's underlying viewpoint (including personal religious beliefs) are at risk.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

On 3/24/2021 at 11:26 AM, Calm said:

Quote

So Stefoknee can be a perpetual six-year-old girl?

I am just saying it is inaccurate to speak of labels in terms of absolutes when they actually may change depending on a culture. 

I don't understand.  What "absolutes" are you referencing here?

And I still don't understand your perspective on whether Stefoknee can be a perpetual six-year-old girl.

Can he "become" a female?  Certainly large portions of our society are saying "Yes, a person can change his gender."

Well, okay then.  Can he "become" a six-year-old female?  If a person can "change his gender," can he also change his age?  And if not, why not?

Can he "become" a perennial six-year-old female?

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

6 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

So since you don't care what others call you, you are going to assume that people who do care how you address them should not care? You won't care about how they want to be addressed?

I care about these things as a matter of A) basic decorum and civility, and B) fact and reality.

I also care about these things to the extent the government is getting involved to punish people, to compel speech, and so on.

Thanks,

-Smac

[3DOP]

 

On 3/26/2021 at 4:36 PM, longview said:

 

There has been a steady insistent drumbeat of social engineering for many decades.  Some are good (such as overthrowing Jim Crow laws, etc).  But too many are attempts to "collectivize" society and to diminish the family by shifting more control to the government.  Each change that is slowly accepted always to leads to further attempts to ratchet upwards more radical and subversive "innovations".

We see it in the overwhelming presence of staunch Bolshevik professors in colleges and universities (mainly in social science, journalism, various "studies" programs and so on).  There is definitely coercion occurring in the classroom as conservative students are threatened or ridiculed.  The dominant media have become more brazen in its propaganda and outright lies (they soft-pedal mis-truths when they are called on it).

Now they are pressing for elimination of revered terms of family, mom, dad, son, daughter, etc.  It will get progressively worse with the dialogue sounding more and more deranged.

Happy continues to try browbeat you into submission.  He and others are using shaming, peer pressure, victimhood outrages, contempt, and a whole array of propaganda tools of the left against any that refuse to "knuckle under" or capitulate.

I could not resist an upvote for  "Bolshevik professors".

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

What "absolutes" are you referencing here?

“Two genders” is not really an absolute given when many other cultures have more.

At this point my opinion on the overall issue is there should be compromise from all sides, recognition of a greater spectrum while allowing for a relatively simple and safe way of referring to others. 

Quote

And I still don't understand your perspective on whether Stefoknee can be a perpetual six-year-old girl.

I don’t have one.  I don’t know him sufficiently to make that determination, but he doesn’t even appear to see himself as a six year old consistently.  He is not talking like a six year old, he works, he cares for himself like an adult at times. 
 

Whether or not he can become something depends on what he wants to become. He seems to recognize the experience of living somewhat like a six year old as play therapy.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Calm

[3DOP]

On 3/27/2021 at 11:58 AM, Meadowchik said:

The church literally requested people to stop using a common moniker that was previously encouraged by the church. So is that Orwellian or not?

 

Not Orwellian. I have tried to refrain from using "Mormon" since I heard about it. But when I forget, nobody says a word. It just seems like an encouragement for members to use the most accurate terminology.

I do not think they would want the gov't to enforce their preferred terminology, on LDS or non-LDS. Your Church members seem very tolerant of those like me who forget sometimes. 

 

[Meadowchik]

23 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Not Orwellian. I have tried to refrain from using "Mormon" since I heard about it. But when I forget, nobody says a word. It just seems like an encouragement for members to use the most accurate terminology.

I do not think they would want the gov't to enforce their preferred terminology, on LDS or non-LDS. Your Church members seem very tolerant of those like me who forget sometimes. 

 

I agree it is not Orwellian. But then neither is an employee being penalised/ fired for not honouring the company's etiquette.

Referenced post: