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The Pronoun Wars Continue


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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

In my view, the people who are demanding - rather than requesting - compliance with "preferred pronouns."

Jordan Peterson isn't trying to punish people who disagree with him about the use of pronouns.

Why is he refusing to call people by their requested pronouns? Is there a good reason or is he just a jerk?

He didn't start the fight.  It was brought to his door step via legislation in Canada.

You live in the US, right? It's a whole different country.

I see a difference between A) a person declining to engage in speech with which he disagrees, and B) other persons who work to destroy the livelihood of the first guy because he does not want to say the things that they want him to say.

The guy just wanted a cake. The baker's refusal to sell him one instigated the problem.

And a pretty big difference it is.

Mr. Phillips didn't threaten anyone.  He's the one under attack.  He's the one being threatened.

And the couple could have just gone to another bakery and gotten the symbolic cake they wanted.  Which, in fact, they did.  But they then proceeded to try to destroy Mr. Phillips' livelihood and reputation anyway.

We should really return to separate but equal services in the US. Would you agree?

Who is the aggressor in this narrative?  Are you seriously suggesting it was Mr. Phillips?

Oh.  That's how morality works, is it?  You presume to tell Mr. Phillips what his religion means to him?

And what about Free Speech?

I'm all for it. What about the free and legal use of the legal system?

How do you know?

I've previously commented on this argument here:

Well?  Are you willing to grant to Mr. Phillips the same right to control his speech that is claimed by Elton John?  Queen?  Twisted Sister?  If not, why not?

Wildly, flagrantly untrue.  He was the defendant.  He was the one sued.  It was the couple that started the "battle," not him.

Malarky.

Dude...language.

It's not just about going "overboard."  There are plenty of types of speech that are not "overboard," but which shouldn't be compelled, either.

IMO this "war" is being started by people who are demanding that others capitulate in terms of speech, religion, social mores, and other important aspects of life.  And if that capitulation doesn't come, then comes the lawfare.  Then comes insults and accusations ("phobia" being a favorite - as you demonstrate here).

Mr. Phillips was sued, but he's the aggressor.  

Mr. Phillips was sued, but he started the war.

Yes. Now you're getting it. He was the aggressor which is why he was sued.

And what about when that craziness makes inroads into two of the largest jurisdictions in the United States (California and New York)?

When does an "outlier" become something that merits attention, concern and rebuttal?

Compelled speech is not harmful?

Are you sure?

Is there any situation in which you would find compelled speech problematic?

Thanks,

-Smac

 

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7 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Why is he refusing to call people by their requested pronouns? Is there a good reason or is he just a jerk?

Would you call a man a woman just because that man told you he wanted to be called a woman, and treated as a woman, and have you think of him as a woman, even when he clearly is not a woman?

Neh.  Scratch that.  You probably would, cream puff that you are.  But I wouldn't because a man is not a woman even if he thinks he is.

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12 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Would you call a man a woman just because that man told you he wanted to be called a woman, and treated as a woman, and have you think of him as a woman, even when he clearly is not a woman?

Neh.  Scratch that.  You probably would, cream puff that you are.  But I wouldn't because a man is not a woman even if he thinks he is.

Yes. I would. If a transgender person asks me to call them by a certain pronoun I will do my best to do that. Why? Because it would be totally rude and hostile to call him something she doesn't like. 

Even though I may not fully understand what it means or how it feels to be transgender, I would do my best to help that person feel accepted and respected.

The question is, why wouldn't you? What do you gain by refusing to call the person by their preferred pronoun? 

 

And regarding your "cream puff" comment... Give this a watch :) 

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?view=detail&mid=F27270BEA89EE90EE762F27270BEA89EE90EE762&q=modern+family+cream+puff&shtp=GetUrl&shid=6f61918a-a651-40dd-bf2a-7550c59b3adc&shtk=Q3JlYW1wdWZmIFNuZWFrIDktMjMgLSBNb2Rlcm4gRmFtaWx5&shdk=Q2FtZXJvbiBhbmQgTWl0Y2hlbGwgYnJpbmcgdGhlaXIgbmV3IGFkb3B0ZWQgY2hpbGQgaG9tZSBmcm9tIFZpZXRuYW0uIEZvciBtb3JlIHZpZGVvLCB2aXNpdCBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFiYy5jb20%3D&shhk=Pv0GVN8XKsM0HtbAIS2WSodcqLFq9eeKMBD90Wt4zPQ%3D&form=VDSHOT&shth=OSH.y%2BORUDHptb8R2izLSIxQkw

 

Edited by HappyJackWagon
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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Some folks can reasonably feel that perpetuating a faleshood, or a mental illness, may not be either "compassion{ate}" or "reasonable."

And the government punishing me for resisting compelled speech is certainly not a "request."

When time permits, I would recommend reading through the following two articles:

The first one is an opinion piece by First Amendment Ninja Eugene Volokh (of Volokh Conspiracy fame), and the latter is a blog entry by Josh Blackman - both of which were prompted by incidents similar to those referenced in your OP but about events taking place here in the States.

 

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1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Yes. I would. If a transgender person asks me to call them by a certain pronoun I will do my best to do that. Why? Because it would be totally rude and hostile to call him something she doesn't like. 

Even though I may not fully understand what it means or how it feels to be transgender, I would do my best to help that person feel accepted and respected.

The question is, why wouldn't you? What do you gain by refusing to call the person by their preferred pronoun? 

I already told you why I wouldn't call a man a woman.  Because a man is not a woman.  And transgender is a made-up word for a man who thinks he is a woman or a woman who thinks she is a man.

By calling a man a man and a woman a woman I keep my own integrity in tact rather than bending to the will of other people who want me to go against what I know is right by calling things that are what they are not..

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Just now, Ahab said:

I already told you why I wouldn't call a man a woman.  Because a man is not a woman.  And transgender is a made-up word for a man who thinks he is a woman or a woman who thinks she is a man.

By calling a man a man and a woman a woman I keep my own integrity in tact rather than bending to the will of other people who want me to go against what I know is right by calling things that are what they are not..

Your integrity is inspiring.

It actually sounds like you're just trying to be openly hostile because you don't understand transgender people and you're afraid of what you don't understand so you have to show how tough and masculine you are. If you feel that's necessary, go for it ;) 

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Just now, HappyJackWagon said:

Your integrity is inspiring.

It actually sounds like you're just trying to be openly hostile because you don't understand transgender people and you're afraid of what you don't understand so you have to show how tough and masculine you are. If you feel that's necessary, go for it ;) 

I am not hostile but I do not like all of this type of silliness in this world.  Silliness that isn't funny, anymore, even though at one time I thought it was or could be.  Now I see it as the stupid and pathetic silliness that it is.  And this is just me being honest.

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13 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I am not hostile but I do not like all of this type of silliness in this world.  Silliness that isn't funny, anymore, even though at one time I thought it was or could be.  Now I see it as the stupid and pathetic silliness that it is.  And this is just me being honest.

I hate to break it to you but what you are saying sounds quite hostile.

For individuals who are transgender this is a big and important deal. Can you imagine what it might feel like if you were transgender and then heard people referring to it as "silliness, stupid and pathetic"? 

Edited by HappyJackWagon
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8 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I hate to break it to you but what you are saying sounds quite hostile.

For individuals who are transgender this is a big and important deal. Can you imagine what it might feel like if you were transgender and then heard people referring to it as "silliness, stupid and pathetic"? 

You sound coercive.

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5 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I hate to break it to you but what you are saying sounds quite hostile.

For individuals who are transgender this is a big and important deal. Can you imagine what it might feel like if you were transgender and then heard people referring to it as "silliness, stupid and pathetic"? 

Sometimes maybe it is better not to tell others how I really feel, or how you really feel, or what you think, or how you see things.  Keeping one's own thoughts to one's self, and God, and maybe sometimes a spouse.

Would that make you feel better?  Would you rather just not know how I feel or what I think when I think of a man who wants to be called a woman, or a woman wants to be called a man?

I am not going to change how I feel or what I think just because someone else doesn't like what I feel or think.  My mind would be flip-flopping all over the place if I tried to do that, because we are not all in agreement and we still wouldn't be even if all of us kept changing our minds depending on who we are talking to at a particular moment.  So I just stick with what I know and what I think and how I feel, depending on God for my guidance while sometimes, a lot of the time actually, talking things out with my spouse.

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8 minutes ago, longview said:

You sound coercive.

Only if he was persuasive.  I see him as just another person sharing his own perspective, right or wrong.  And I recognize the fact that we are all entitled to our own opinions and perspectives.

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5 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Sometimes maybe it is better not to tell others how I really feel, or how you really feel, or what you think, or how you see things.  Keeping one's own thoughts to one's self, and God, and maybe sometimes a spouse.

Would that make you feel better?  Would you rather just not know how I feel or what I think when I think of a man who wants to be called a woman, or a woman wants to be called a man?

I am not going to change how I feel or what I think just because someone else doesn't like what I feel or think.  My mind would be flip-flopping all over the place if I tried to do that, because we are not all in agreement and we still wouldn't be even if all of us kept changing our minds depending on who we are talking to at a particular moment.  So I just stick with what I know and what I think and how I feel, depending on God for my guidance while sometimes, a lot of the time actually, talking things out with my spouse.

It's true that sometimes it's best to keep our opinions to ourselves. No one needs to know how I feel about every issue. But sometimes its good to share. I have no problem with you sharing. I find it useful.

But being aware of how our words and action affect others is useful too. Knowing that others may find an opinion or statement to be hostile could be very informative and be the impetus for some self-reflection, whether that leads to a change of opinion and actions, or not. A lot of people feel the way you do so you are definitely not alone in that. I used to feel the same way but I Have changed how I feel and think because upon self-reflection I found that a change would be a good thing.

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31 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I hate to break it to you but what you are saying sounds quite hostile.

For individuals who are transgender this is a big and important deal. Can you imagine what it might feel like if you were transgender and then heard people referring to it as "silliness, stupid and pathetic"? 

Okay, I tried the not tell you approach but now I feel like I want to tell you.

If I was a man, which I am, but I thought I was a woman, which I am not, and I heard people referring to this conundrum as "silliness, stupid, and pathetic" I would give it some serious consideration and then I would decide how I thought I should feel.

...

and now after giving it some serious consideration I think I might feel silly.

Edited by Ahab
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21 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Okay, I tried the not tell you approach but now I feel like I want to tell you.

If I was a man, which I am, but I thought I was a woman, which I am not, and I heard people referring to this conundrum as "silliness, stupid, and pathetic" I would give it some serious consideration and then I would decide how I thought I should feel.

...

and now after giving it some serious consideration I think I might feel silly.

Developing some empathy is a sign of strength.

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16 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

How so?

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

 

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

In what way?  Serious question. 

There has been a steady insistent drumbeat of social engineering for many decades.  Some are good (such as overthrowing Jim Crow laws, etc).  But too many are attempts to "collectivize" society and to diminish the family by shifting more control to the government.  Each change that is slowly accepted always to leads to further attempts to ratchet upwards more radical and subversive "innovations".

We see it in the overwhelming presence of staunch Bolshevik professors in colleges and universities (mainly in social science, journalism, various "studies" programs and so on).  There is definitely coercion occurring in the classroom as conservative students are threatened or ridiculed.  The dominant media have become more brazen in its propaganda and outright lies (they soft-pedal mis-truths when they are called on it).

Now they are pressing for elimination of revered terms of family, mom, dad, son, daughter, etc.  It will get progressively worse with the dialogue sounding more and more deranged.

54 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Only if he was persuasive.  I see him as just another person sharing his own perspective, right or wrong.  And I recognize the fact that we are all entitled to our own opinions and perspectives.

Happy continues to try browbeat you into submission.  He and others are using shaming, peer pressure, victimhood outrages, contempt, and a whole array of propaganda tools of the left against any that refuse to "knuckle under" or capitulate.

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1 minute ago, longview said:

Happy continues to try browbeat you into submission.  He and others are using shaming, peer pressure, victimhood outrages, contempt, and a whole array of propaganda tools of the left against any that refuse to "knuckle under" or capitulate.

Understanding does not automatically mean capitulating. Someone taking issues seriously enough to study them just might be less likely to change their mind when pressured than someone with a shallow understanding.

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3 minutes ago, longview said:

Happy continues to try browbeat you into submission.  He and others are using shaming, peer pressure, victimhood outrages, contempt, and a whole array of propaganda tools of the left against any that refuse to "knuckle under" or capitulate.

Oh really.  I thought maybe but then I thought, nah, he's just telling me what he thinks.  People do that, you know.  They just say what they think and how they feel.  Doesn't mean they're trying to get us to think what they think, I don't think.  Just understand them.

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2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

In my view, the people who are demanding - rather than requesting - compliance with "preferred pronouns."

Jordan Peterson isn't trying to punish people who disagree with him about the use of pronouns.

Why is he refusing to call people by their requested pronouns? Is there a good reason or is he just a jerk?

Doesn't matter.  The point is that the government should not be compelling him to speak, or punishing him for failing to speak words the government wants to compel him to speak.

As I recall, he said he uses preferred pronouns generally, but at his discretion.

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

He didn't start the fight.  It was brought to his door step via legislation in Canada.

You live in the US, right? It's a whole different country.

I do live in the U.S., which presently has at least two states that are already compelling "pronoun" speech in limited contexts.  I think such things will continue to expand.

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I see a difference between A) a person declining to engage in speech with which he disagrees, and B) other persons who work to destroy the livelihood of the first guy because he does not want to say the things that they want him to say.

The guy just wanted a cake. The baker's refusal to sell him one instigated the problem.

The couple that sued Mr. Phillips because he declined to speak things he did not want to speak, because he exercised of his constitutional rights to Free Speech and Free Exercise, are the ones who "instigated the problem."

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

And a pretty big difference it is.

Mr. Phillips didn't threaten anyone.  He's the one under attack.  He's the one being threatened.

And the couple could have just gone to another bakery and gotten the symbolic cake they wanted.  Which, in fact, they did.  But they then proceeded to try to destroy Mr. Phillips' livelihood and reputation anyway.

We should really return to separate but equal services in the US. Would you agree?

No need to return from a place we're already at.

We should really return to Free Speech and Free Exercise in the US.  Would you agree.

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Who is the aggressor in this narrative?  Are you seriously suggesting it was Mr. Phillips?

Oh.  That's how morality works, is it?  You presume to tell Mr. Phillips what his religion means to him?

And what about Free Speech?

I'm all for it. What about the free and legal use of the legal system?

The same legal system that punished the Christian baker for declining to speak things he did not want to speak, but then allowed three homosexual bakers to decline to speak things they did not want to speak?

That legal system?  The execrable "Colorado 'Civil Rights' Commission?"

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

How do you know?

I've previously commented on this argument here:

Well?  Are you willing to grant to Mr. Phillips the same right to control his speech that is claimed by Elton John?  Queen?  Twisted Sister?  If not, why not?

Wildly, flagrantly untrue.  He was the defendant.  He was the one sued.  It was the couple that started the "battle," not him.

Malarky.

Dude...language.

Piffle. ;) 

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It's not just about going "overboard."  There are plenty of types of speech that are not "overboard," but which shouldn't be compelled, either.

IMO this "war" is being started by people who are demanding that others capitulate in terms of speech, religion, social mores, and other important aspects of life.  And if that capitulation doesn't come, then comes the lawfare.  Then comes insults and accusations ("phobia" being a favorite - as you demonstrate here).

Mr. Phillips was sued, but he's the aggressor.  

Mr. Phillips was sued, but he started the war.

Yes. Now you're getting it. He was the aggressor which is why he was sued.

No, I'm not getting it.  He was not the aggressor.  He was the defendant.  The aggressors were the couple that sued him for not speaking in ways that they wanted him to speak.

Thanks,

-Smac

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7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Perhaps it is the direction you are shelling it out that might need some modifying. 

Nah.  If you feel comfortable saying things like that to me then I think I am doing okay to say what I say. Just sharing what I think and how I think as honestly as I know how.

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8 minutes ago, longview said:

 

There has been a steady insistent drumbeat of social engineering for many decades.  Some are good (such as overthrowing Jim Crow laws, etc).  But too many are attempts to "collectivize" society and to diminish the family by shifting more control to the government.  Each change that is slowly accepted always to leads to further attempts to ratchet upwards more radical and subversive "innovations".

We see it in the overwhelming presence of staunch Bolshevik professors in colleges and universities (mainly in social science, journalism, various "studies" programs and so on).  There is definitely coercion occurring in the classroom as conservative students are threatened or ridiculed.  The dominant media have become more brazen in its propaganda and outright lies (they soft-pedal mis-truths when they are called on it).

Now they are pressing for elimination of revered terms of family, mom, dad, son, daughter, etc.  It will get progressively worse with the dialogue sounding more and more deranged.

Happy continues to try browbeat you into submission.  He and others are using shaming, peer pressure, victimhood outrages, contempt, and a whole array of propaganda tools of the left against any that refuse to "knuckle under" or capitulate.

They are using “victimhood outrages” - Guy insisting we will soon all be jailed over pronouns based on manipulated stories.

Irony is dead. On the bright side Jim Crow is making a comeback so maybe your tactics can work.

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3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

They are using “victimhood outrages” - Guy insisting we will soon all be jailed over pronouns based on manipulated stories.

Irony is dead. On the bright side Jim Crow is making a comeback so maybe your tactics can work.

Irony is actually not dead although some people may think it may be.  Every person on this planet is simply sharing what they think and how they feel.  Even the people who think what they say should be taken seriously.

It's things like this that help to make being alive a good thing.

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