Certain environmentally friendly efforts aren’t that friendly, including recycling and electric cars

[The Nehor]

45 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

And who recycles all the worn-out batteries? How much pollution does making those batteries produce?

No idea. A lot. Electric cars have a  lot of problems to work out before they are viable. Probably shouldn’t forget that we have the same problem with the cars we have now.

I am saying we should keep working on them. Early versions of almost everything are terrible. Regular cars, the first season of the Simpsons, episode 1 of Star Wars, those awful VR rigs they used to show at science museums when I was young, punchcard computers, silent movies, the Articles of Confederation, the list goes on and on. 

 

[strappinglad]

17 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Almost makes a person want to go back to horse and buggy, ice block delivery....

It should be pointed out that thousands died in big cities from diseases caused by horse manure dropped all over the place when there were just horse driven vehicles. 

[Calm]

I hadn’t realized wood stoves could be bad: 
 

https://theconversation.com/blame-wood-burning-stoves-for-winter-air-pollution-and-health-threats-110662

Knew coal could be:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_London

Also look up pea soupers for additional horror stories. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Calm

[strappinglad]

My scariest encounter with pollution was decades ago in Los Angeles on the freeway trapped in an underpass in 6 lanes of traffic going nowhere. We sat there idling and watched as the smog slowly built up around us into a dense yellow fog. We could feel the hot hands of death slowly choking us. 

We survived, in case you were wondering. 

[AtlanticMike]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

I hadn’t realized wood stoves could be bad: 
 

https://theconversation.com/blame-wood-burning-stoves-for-winter-air-pollution-and-health-threats-110662

Knew coal could be:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_London

Also look up pea soupers for additional horror stories. 

I agree with you that some wood stoves can put out alot of chemicals and especially a lot of creosote. Newer stoves like the one we use has  triple burn capability which means in the final burn stage, I think at around 1600 degrees, incinerates 85% of the harmful chemicals exiting the flu pipe. After the initial startup, around 20 minutes, if you go outside you can't even see any smoke because it all been burnt up in the final burn stage. There's days in the fall, winter and spring the only electricity we're using is to wash clothes. 

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I agree with you that some wood stoves can put out alot of chemicals and especially a lot of creosote. Newer stoves like the one we use has  triple burn capability which means in the final burn stage, I think at around 1600 degrees, incinerates 85% of the harmful chemicals exiting the flu pipe. After the initial startup, around 20 minutes, if you go outside you can't even see any smoke because it all been burnt up in the final burn stage. There's days in the fall, winter and spring the only electricity we're using is to wash clothes. 

Glad to hear you have a safe setup.  It would be a shame if your family had difficulties when trying to live prudent lives.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Calm

[AtlanticMike]

 

Delete

Edited March 17, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[BlueDreams]

On 3/16/2021 at 9:38 PM, strappinglad said:

My scariest encounter with pollution was decades ago in Los Angeles on the freeway trapped in an underpass in 6 lanes of traffic going nowhere. We sat there idling and watched as the smog slowly built up around us into a dense yellow fog. We could feel the hot hands of death slowly choking us. 

We survived, in case you were wondering. 

In order of nastiness, mine goes Beijing, Mexico City (the first time I went....second and third were far better), SLC. Beijing’s was other worldly in both it’s size and intensity, even on a relatively “good day.” Utah’s is seasonal. It hits hard in winter especially in SL valley...I can some days see the line of different air between UT county and SL county. Not that UT county doesn’t have bad days too...they do. 
all three have a similar problem of geography that leads to inversion. Of course that’s ignoring fire season. Ugh! 
 

[Stargazer]

On 3/17/2021 at 3:38 AM, strappinglad said:

My scariest encounter with pollution was decades ago in Los Angeles on the freeway trapped in an underpass in 6 lanes of traffic going nowhere. We sat there idling and watched as the smog slowly built up around us into a dense yellow fog. We could feel the hot hands of death slowly choking us. 

We survived, in case you were wondering. 

Reminds me of when I returned to Orange County, California after several years in Canada and England - would have been around 1972. I was at my parents' house, and decided to walk all over the old neighborhood to see all the old and new things. By the time I returned home my lungs and throat were sore from all the air pollution.

[rodheadlee]

On 3/16/2021 at 8:38 PM, strappinglad said:

My scariest encounter with pollution was decades ago in Los Angeles on the freeway trapped in an underpass in 6 lanes of traffic going nowhere. We sat there idling and watched as the smog slowly built up around us into a dense yellow fog. We could feel the hot hands of death slowly choking us. 

We survived, in case you were wondering. 

 

On 4/13/2021 at 3:08 PM, Stargazer said:

Reminds me of when I returned to Orange County, California after several years in Canada and England - would have been around 1972. I was at my parents' house, and decided to walk all over the old neighborhood to see all the old and new things. By the time I returned home my lungs and throat were sore from all the air pollution.

 

 

Well smog devices have changed everything. The smog is substantially less now than it was back then. I would say the smog peaked in the early 1990s.

 

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[InCognitus]

On 3/15/2021 at 9:30 PM, Tacenda said:

Almost makes a person want to go back to horse and buggy, ice block delivery....

No!   Can you imagine the manure cleanup (and air pollution) and other environmental issues that would occur if the majority of the people in our current population used horse transportation?  Just think of the parking lots alone, and the watering and feed fees required while your horse is tied up at the airport when you need to go on a business trip.   

 

[AtlanticMike]

4 hours ago, InCognitus said:

 Can you imagine the manure cleanup (and air pollution) and other environmental issues that would occur if the majority of the people in our current population used horse transportation? 

Your looking at it the wrong way. You could make a "crap" ton of money collecting and selling horse manure to people for their gardens😁. 

[Calm]

Possible recycling plastics breakthrough...

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jun/15/scientists-convert-used-plastic-bottles-into-vanilla-flavouring?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-1

[Tacenda]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

Possible recycling plastics breakthrough...

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jun/15/scientists-convert-used-plastic-bottles-into-vanilla-flavouring?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-1

Just skimmed the article, so may have missed something but I just can't get my head around using plastic to make vanilla. But I'd like to know the plastic I recycle actually does get recycled, since the article said only 14% actually gets recycled. Several years ago in a new build of a home, I picked recycled plastic bottles turned carpet. And you'd never know that it was made from plastic bottles. 

 

[InCognitus]

And then there's this problem with electric cars:

Federal regulators warn of risks to firefighters from electrical vehicle fires

Lithium-ion batteries pose a unique threat, and most first responders are not prepared.

Quote

It’s the kind of blaze that veteran Chief Palmer Buck of The Woodlands Township Fire Department in suburban Houston compared to “a trick birthday candle.”

On April 17, when firefighters responded to a 911 call at around 9:30 p.m., they came upon a Tesla Model S that had crashed, killing two people, and was now on fire.

They extinguished it, but then a small flare shot out of the bottom of the charred hulk. Firefighters quickly put out those flames. Not long after, the car reignited for a third time.

“What the heck? How do we make this stop?’” Buck asked his team. They quickly consulted Tesla’s first responder guide and realized that it would take far more personnel and water than they could have imagined. Eight firefighters ultimately spent seven hours putting out the fire. They also used up 28,000 gallons of water — an amount the department normally uses in a month. That same volume of water serves an average American home for nearly two years.

From further down in the article:

Quote

Recent discovery

While the first Tesla vehicles hit American streets in 2008, the National Transportation Safety Board did not investigate its first electric-vehicle battery fires until after an Aug. 25, 2017, crash of a Tesla Model X. That car was driving an estimated 70 mph or more down a residential street in Lake Forest, California, about an hour’s drive southeast of downtown Los Angeles.

According to the NTSB, the driver lost control of the car, crossed a sidewalk, traveled down a drainage ditch, hit a culvert and a property wall, and finally zoomed into an open garage and collided with a parked BMW, narrowly missing a man inside.

The Tesla caught fire, which spread to the BMW, then the garage and the house itself.

While Orange County Fire Authority’s firefighters put out most of the fire within 20 minutes, they found that a fire continued to burn in the attic above the fire, fueled by the burning Tesla. It took another 30 minutes for them to get the Tesla out of the garage, after which it reignited.

But 45 minutes after the flames on the Tesla were extinguished, it reignited again. Firefighters began hosing it down with copious amounts of water, up to 200 gallons per minute, but “that did not extinguish the flames,” according to the NTSB. At approximately 9:13 p.m., nearly three hours after the first alarm was received, firefighters had to pour out more than 600 gallons of water per minute. In the end, two firefighters sustained minor smoke inhalation-related injuries, and the agency used 20,000 gallons of water.

This may contribute to the current water shortage in the western United States.  The moral of the story?  If you have an electric car, don't crash.