"Mormon" as a Genetic Ethnicity?

[smac97]

Here:

Quote

Three DNA bombshells upended my life
Samuel Burke

Confusion. Disbelief. Denial.

Those were the emotions cutting through me as I looked at my dad’s DNA results. We come from a small Phoenix Jewish family, but this at-home test was showing a big discovery none of us could explain.

“Dad, it says you’re Mormon.” Words I never thought I’d utter. My father’s response shocked me even more.

“I know,” he said as my eyes widened. “I saw that when the results came in. But it’s so preposterous that I just ignored it.”

You can ignore DNA results, but that doesn’t make them go away. The test classifies my dad (and by extension me) as “Mountain West Mormon Pioneers.” We had no idea a scientific test could tell if someone comes from a relatively-new proselytizing religion like the Church of Latter Day Saints.

I was determined to solve this mystery, but the deeper I dove into it the more I realized our lives would never be the same again. When I finally untangled the web, my heart broke as I watched the DNA test steal a part of my dad and his identity. We’re still Jewish, but my father’s paternal lineage was not at all who or what he’d always believed.

“It changed my whole perspective on who I was,” my dad admitted, referring to his identity in the past tense.

I'm curious as to how this works.  How is "Mountain West Mormon Pioneers" a genetic thing?  Can anyone weigh in?

I can see this is pretty upsetting to someone whose identity is Jewish, which seems to conflate religion and ethnicity to some extent.

More from the article:

Quote

Experts find that as many as 11% of people who take a DNA test discover that one of their parents is not their biological parent, according to the American Journal of Physical Anthropology. This sounded ridiculous to me — until it happened twice in my very own family.

The advertising for DNA testing focuses on positive stories of people who were seeking out answers about their ethnic backgrounds. They don’t spotlight families like mine whose lives are turned upside down by a simple swab of the cheek.

For my family, the DNA test wasn’t just adding a new chapter in our lives. It seemed as though it was rewriting our life story. After my mom sent in her sample, we received a cryptic email from a woman whose family also attended Congregation Beth Israel. As I read the stranger’s email, I realized the woman was insinuating she and my mom are sisters. When I found a picture of the woman, my jaw literally dropped. My mom took one look at the photo and made a blunt proclamation.

“Well, we don’t need a DNA test. She’s obviously my sister,” she said as she stared at her new younger sister in amazement.

I have an acquaintance who encountered something similar.  An adult child of an older couple found out through genetic testing that her father had fathered multiple children with another woman.  She (the adult child) struck up a friendship with these half-siblings, which caused great offense to her mother (who had only recently found out about her husband's prolonged infidelity).  Oi.  

Quote

A third DNA shock brought my family closure to the case of a missing cousin who disappeared in the late ’80s. We believed he had died from AIDS, but learned he had met a different fate.

The DNA test began adding and subtracting the people I called “family” so quickly that I started questioning the very meaning of the word. Are family the people who you are raised with? Or the people you’re related to?

I began documenting my family’s own journey as well as a dozen other families around the world whose lives were torn apart and put back together by DNA testing. Two years of listening in on these families’ roller-coaster journeys is now a podcast called “Suddenly Family.”

Infidelity. Blackmail. Murder mysteries. Kidnapping. Clandestine artificial insemination. These families have experienced it all. Their DNA plots sound more like blockbuster thrillers, but behind that are the emotional firsthand accounts of people who’ve had to pick up the pieces of their lives and start all over again.

Sounds like a fascinating, though also potentially lurid and invasive, podcast.

Thanks,

-Smac

[juliann]

10 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Here:

I'm curious as to how this works.  How is "Mountain West Mormon Pioneers" a genetic thing?  Can anyone weigh in?

 

The DNA thing is stupid but during the Thomas O'Dea years, it was debated whether Mormons should be categorized as an ethnic group because of the high preponderance of English/Danish bloodlines. I would be considered an ethnic Mormon. 

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Here:

I'm curious as to how this works.  How is "Mountain West Mormon Pioneers" a genetic thing?  Can anyone weigh in?

It's a genetic thing because it has to do with ancestors/descendants... who was my Father or Mother?...but it's being called a cultural thing because of the culture/religion of those ancestors.  Simple logic.  But it's not how it really works.

It is interesting to think about when referring to Jewish ancestors, though.  It is common to think that children of Jewish people (Jews) become Jews just like their parents, but that isn't (necessarily) how it really works.  They can choose to be, and we may even be able to say they "usually" choose to accept the same religion/culture as their parents, but that is a cultural/religion thing and not a genetic thing.

 

[Raingirl]

11 minutes ago, Ahab said:

It's a genetic thing because it has to do with ancestors/descendants... who was my Father or Mother?...but it's being called a cultural thing because of the culture/religion of those ancestors.  Simple logic.  But it's not how it really works.

It is interesting to think about when referring to Jewish ancestors, though.  It is common to think that children of Jewish people (Jews) become Jews just like their parents, but that isn't (necessarily) how it really works.  They can choose to be, and we may even be able to say they "usually" choose to accept the same religion/culture as their parents, but that is a cultural/religion thing and not a genetic thing.

 

Per halakah (Jewish law) a person is Jewish if their mother is. The exception to that would be someone who goes through conversion. 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

The DNA thing is stupid but during the Thomas O'Dea years, it was debated whether Mormons should be categorized as an ethnic group because of the high preponderance of English/Danish bloodlines. I would be considered an ethnic Mormon. 

But if "Mormon" ethnicity means "English/Danish," why not just say "English/Danish"?  

And how can "Mormon" (meaning "English/Danish") be an ethnicity given that a substantial number - even a majority, I suspect - of "Mormons" are not of English/Danish extraction?  

Conflating religion with ethnicity seems a bit odd.  Wikipedia has an article about "ethnoreligious groups," and "Mormons" are included.

I guess I have always viewes "ethnicity" as something over which we have no control.  I am of mostly Scottish and English extraction, with a smattering of French and German.  I can't do anything to change these origins.  I didn't choose my ancestry.  But I do choose to be a Latter-day Saint.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

Per halakah (Jewish law) a person is Jewish if their mother is. The exception to that would be someone who goes through conversion. 

Jewish law is a Jewish cultural/religious thing and not a genetic thing.

[katherine the great]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I'm curious as to how this works.  How is "Mountain West Mormon Pioneers" a genetic thing?  Can anyone weigh in?

There must be some kind of (incomplete) DNA database of descendants of prominent early Mormon Pioneer families: Especially the polygamist men who had many offspring. I would imagine descendants of Orson Pratt, Heber Kimball, Brigham Young etc. would be fairly easy to identify and classify as descendants of  “Mountain west Mormon pioneers“.

[Raingirl]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Jewish law is a Jewish cultural/religious thing and not a genetic thing.

You clearly failed to understand my post. As well as a whole lot of other things. 
 

Just go ahead and keep living in your solitary alternate universe. 

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

You clearly failed to understand my post. As well as a whole lot of other things. 
 

Just go ahead and keep living in your solitary alternate universe. 

I think you are a lot like one of my daughters in law.  I don't like her very much either.

And no I did not fail to understand your post.  A whole lot of other things?  Maybe.

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

But if "Mormon" ethnicity means "English/Danish," why not just say "English/Danish"?  

And how can "Mormon" (meaning "English/Danish") be an ethnicity given that a substantial number - even a majority, I suspect - of "Mormons" are not of English/Danish extraction?  

Conflating religion with ethnicity seems a bit odd.  Wikipedia has an article about "ethnoreligious groups," and "Mormons" are included.

I guess I have always viewes "ethnicity" as something over which we have no control.  I am of mostly Scottish and English extraction, with a smattering of French and German.  I can't do anything to change these origins.  I didn't choose my ancestry.  But I do choose to be a Latter-day Saint.

Thanks,

-Smac

Well it certainly isn't referring to multigenerational LDS in, say, England, rather just a particular line most likely developed when Mormons went West to Utah into relative isolation. Sounds like it was long enough to produce a distinguished genetic line. 

[Meadowchik]

27 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

You clearly failed to understand my post. As well as a whole lot of other things. 
 

Just go ahead and keep living in your solitary alternate universe. 

Right. Jewish identity is more than religious. 

[juliann]

 

 

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

But if "Mormon" ethnicity means "English/Danish," why not just say "English/Danish"?  

And how can "Mormon" (meaning "English/Danish") be an ethnicity given that a substantial number - even a majority, I suspect - of "Mormons" are not of English/Danish extraction?  

Conflating religion with ethnicity seems a bit odd.  Wikipedia has an article about "ethnoreligious groups," and "Mormons" are included.

I guess I have always viewes "ethnicity" as something over which we have no control.  I am of mostly Scottish and English extraction, with a smattering of French and German.  I can't do anything to change these origins.  I didn't choose my ancestry.  But I do choose to be a Latter-day Saint.

Thanks,

-Smac

 https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V11N01_46.pdf

Quote

 Several scholars have attempted to squeeze Mormonism in under Ernst Troeltsch's not so capacious church-sect umbrella. The most common designation used for Mormonism by these taxonomists is "sect." Yet, standing alone, that designation has seemed inadequate, and various modifiers have been advocated—such as, "established," "cultic," "many-sided," and "churchly-worldly." Some have described Mormonism in terms of what has come to be understood as a typical evolution from "sect" to "denomination." Other typologists have concluded, however, that Mormonism cannot be confined within the church-sect-denomination scheme at all, and they have suggested other categories instead, such as "independent group," "ethnic group," and "nationality."  

Quote

 

 

[Emily]

I was not aware of a "Mountain West Mormon Pioneers" genetic group previous to reading this post... But it's not surprising that some kind of DNA marker for that geographic area exists.

The Mormon pioneers were a group of people who migrated enmass to the west. They were isolated geographically for a decade or more, then intermarried fairly exclusively within their faith for several generations. The result must be some unique genetic marker(s) that got spread through the population that the genetic test can now detect.

Having the unique marker just means someone has an ancestor that came from what might be called, "Pioneer Stock." It's not an ethnicity, nor is it any indication that a Jewish person is any less Jewish. At any rate, Judaism is hardly a homogeneous genetic group - Jewish people carry DNA from all sorts of ethnic and geographical groups.

Judaism does share some characteristics with the "Pioneer Mormons" however, in that groups of Jews moving around the world tended to settle in one geographic area and they tended to mostly intermarry within their faith. So they created similar unique genetic markers.

For example, DNA can differentiate "Ashkenazi" Jewish settler ancestors from Western Germany and Northern France. "Sephardic" Jews from Spain and Portugal can also be identified with DNA.

All it really takes is a couple of generations of geographic or religious/ideological isolation to produce unique DNA markers. Combine that with good record keeping that shows ancestor geographical movements (aka Family History), coupled with a lot of people donating DNA (aka LDS members passing out DNA kits at Christmas and gleefully sharing their Family History charts with Ancestry.com), and you have the perfect recipe for identifying and correlating the markers with a specific historical group. 

[Emily]

Btw...re: the original article... The writer and his Dad are intellectual lightweights if they really talked that way about the Dad's DNA test. I'm hoping it's just silly hyperbole on the part of the writer, and not how he actually thinks or feels. 

First off, it indicates the father is historically ignorant of the area he lives in, Phoenix Arizona. If he's an older Native Arizona man, descended from other native Arizonans, then the chances of him having a "Mormon Pioneer" in his genetic pool is pretty high.  The Mormons were some of the earliest and best established settlers in Arizona and they had big families. Before the post-air conditioner population explosion, "Mormon" DNA would be the valley norm. 

Second, does any intelligent Jewish person really believe they are "pure" Jew?

And last but not least, would any rational person really feel that it is somehow shameful to have a "Mormon" ancestor?

I've got "Jewish DNA" in my family reports, and none of us felt like our identity had been destroyed.

I'm more amused than offended by his reaction, but someone needs to give the writer a poke in the ear. If that's actually how he feels, what he needs to be ashamed of is himself. Jewish people should know better than to display that kind of blatant religious bigotry.

[Raingirl]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

I think you are a lot like one of my daughters in law.  I don't like her very much either.

And no I did not fail to understand your post.  A whole lot of other things?  Maybe.

Again, you fail miserably when it comes to reading comprehension.  Whether by deliberately choosing to misunderstand my post, or by a genuine lack of intelligence, you fail spectacularly at reading comprehension. This does not surprise anyone who has encountered you here or elsewhere. 
 

You think you insult me with your dislike. Too funny.   
 

My condolences to your daughter-in-law. 
 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

..............

I'm curious as to how this works.  How is "Mountain West Mormon Pioneers" a genetic thing?  Can anyone weigh in?

I can see this is pretty upsetting to someone whose identity is Jewish, which seems to conflate religion and ethnicity to some extent...........................

These people are confusing two very separate matters: (1) DNA only provides information on biological descent.  It does not establish ethnicity.  Those like me who have ancestors who were Mormon pioneers are shown that association in a map of the intermountain West.  That is only DNA ancestry. (2)  Ethnicity is established by the family group one is raised with.  Someone raised Jewish is ethnically Jewish.  Someone raised Mormon is ethnically Mormon.  The two cultures are very different.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Emily said:

Btw...re: the original article... The writer and his Dad are intellectual lightweights if they really talked that way about the Dad's DNA test. I'm hoping it's just silly hyperbole on the part of the writer, and not how he actually thinks or feels. 

First off, it indicates the father is historically ignorant of the area he lives in, Phoenix Arizona. If he's an older Native Arizona man, descended from other native Arizonans, then the chances of him having a "Mormon Pioneer" in his genetic pool is pretty high.  The Mormons were some of the earliest and best established settlers in Arizona and they had big families. Before the post-air conditioner population explosion, "Mormon" DNA would be the valley norm. 

You are right, of course.

2 hours ago, Emily said:

Second, does any intelligent Jewish person really believe they are "pure" Jew?

I can think of one, who was my classmate at UCLA, Mayim Bialik (of TV Blossom fame).  She sent for a DNA test, and turned out to be 100% Jewish.  What is funny is that she married a Mormon, so now her kids are 50% Jewish in DNA, but much more Jewish in ethnicity.

2 hours ago, Emily said:

And last but not least, would any rational person really feel that it is somehow shameful to have a "Mormon" ancestor?

I've got "Jewish DNA" in my family reports, and none of us felt like our identity had been destroyed.

I'm more amused than offended by his reaction, but someone needs to give the writer a poke in the ear. If that's actually how he feels, what he needs to be ashamed of is himself. Jewish people should know better than to display that kind of blatant religious bigotry.

Of course.

[Maureen]

33 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

...I can think of one, who was my classmate at UCLA, Mayim Bialik (of TV Blossom fame)...

She's not just of Blossom fame but also The Big Bang Theory fame and now her new show Call Me Kat. 😊

M.

[Robert F. Smith]

27 minutes ago, Maureen said:

She's not just of Blossom fame but also The Big Bang Theory fame and now her new show Call Me Kat. 😊

M.

When she was my classmate at UCLA, I had never seen "Blossom," and did not know that she was a star.  All I knew then was that she was very smart and compassionate.  She later got her PhD there in neuroscience, which is what she played in the Big Bang Theory -- which I also have not seen.  However, she has personal videos on YouTube which I have enjoyed.

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, smac97 said:

Here:

I'm curious as to how this works.  How is "Mountain West Mormon Pioneers" a genetic thing?  Can anyone weigh in?

I can see this is pretty upsetting to someone whose identity is Jewish, which seems to conflate religion and ethnicity to some extent.

More from the article:

I have an acquaintance who encountered something similar.  An adult child of an older couple found out through genetic testing that her father had fathered multiple children with another woman.  She (the adult child) struck up a friendship with these half-siblings, which caused great offense to her mother (who had only recently found out about her husband's prolonged infidelity).  Oi.  

Sounds like a fascinating, though also potentially lurid and invasive, podcast.

Thanks,

-Smac

You won't like this but many I know consider the religion so far out that it MUST be something to have to be born into to actually believe.   They don't even know we are Christian

Amish anyone?- we are seen about as they are.

That's the way I saw us years ago.

Then I was shocked out of my mind to think that these weird "Amish" people REALLY HAVE the true church of Jesus Christ.

Coulda knocked me over with a wet noodle

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Ahab said:

And no I did not fail to understand your post. 

You are telling her that you know what she wrote/ meant to write BETTER than she did.

A) illogical

B) Insulting by implying you are some sort of mind reader

Oy Vey!

[Scott Lloyd]

12 hours ago, smac97 said:

Here:

I'm curious as to how this works.  How is "Mountain West Mormon Pioneers" a genetic thing?  Can anyone weigh in?

I can see this is pretty upsetting to someone whose identity is Jewish, which seems to conflate religion and ethnicity to some extent.

More from the article:

I have an acquaintance who encountered something similar.  An adult child of an older couple found out through genetic testing that her father had fathered multiple children with another woman.  She (the adult child) struck up a friendship with these half-siblings, which caused great offense to her mother (who had only recently found out about her husband's prolonged infidelity).  Oi.  

Sounds like a fascinating, though also potentially lurid and invasive, podcast.

Thanks,

-Smac

A while back, I started a thread on this board in which I declared that shared ideals are for me a greater measure of kinship than any other factor, including nationality, ethnicity, genealogy, culture, etc. By way of illustration, I said I’m apt to feel more affinity for the most recent devout convert to the Church of Jesus Christ in the area of the world farthest removed from Church headquarters than I am one who lives nearby and who shares my cultural identity, who has the purest of “Mormon pioneer” pedigrees, who in the past has held a string of Church callings, but who now rejects the doctrines and teachings of my faith. 
 

I here reiterate that declaration and stand by it. I would go so far as to reject the notion that there is such a thing as “Mormon” ethnicity. Accepting, embracing and applying the principles of Christ’s restored gospel, regardless of one’s personal history, background or circumstances, are what matters. 
 

Added later: Here’s a link to that thread I referred to. 

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Emily]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You are right, of course.

I can think of one, who was my classmate at UCLA, Mayim Bialik (of TV Blossom fame).  She sent for a DNA test, and turned out to be 100% Jewish.  What is funny is that she married a Mormon, so now her kids are 50% Jewish in DNA, but much more Jewish in ethnicity.

Of course.

Wow. That's really unusual. It would mean her ancestors only married into their faith group, and only in a pretty narrow geographical area.

It could also mean the test wasn't very sensitive or was done early in the genetic testing business when they had only mapped and identified a few known markers.

We get updates every so often on our DNA tests, narrowing down geographic results or finding new ancestral lines. Not that our DNA changes, but they get better at interpreting what it means. 

It helps genetic researchers to have a large sample size of people  whose ancestors were all from a particular geographic area.  This is why you'll see articles about researchers popping over to take samples of 3,000 year old skeletons from a cave, then running out to take DNA samples from members of families who say they've lived in the area for several generations. It's big news when they manage to locate a few people who are directly related to the ancient bones. 

Sharing family history records when you get DNA tested really advances the science.

Some companies are now offering Neanderthal and even Denisova hominins DNA testing, which is kind of humorous, since Neanderthal is found in pretty much everyone with any European ancestors, and Denisova is only found in Southeast Asian populations, so I'm not sure how much it tells you to see it on your report. But the fact that it's offered does indicate how far "consumer price range" testing has advanced in the last few years.

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, Emily said:

Btw...re: the original article... The writer and his Dad are intellectual lightweights if they really talked that way about the Dad's DNA test. I'm hoping it's just silly hyperbole on the part of the writer, and not how he actually thinks or feels. 

First off, it indicates the father is historically ignorant of the area he lives in, Phoenix Arizona. If he's an older Native Arizona man, descended from other native Arizonans, then the chances of him having a "Mormon Pioneer" in his genetic pool is pretty high.  The Mormons were some of the earliest and best established settlers in Arizona and they had big families. Before the post-air conditioner population explosion, "Mormon" DNA would be the valley norm. 

Second, does any intelligent Jewish person really believe they are "pure" Jew?

And last but not least, would any rational person really feel that it is somehow shameful to have a "Mormon" ancestor?

I've got "Jewish DNA" in my family reports, and none of us felt like our identity had been destroyed.

I'm more amused than offended by his reaction, but someone needs to give the writer a poke in the ear. If that's actually how he feels, what he needs to be ashamed of is himself. Jewish people should know better than to display that kind of blatant religious bigotry.

Virtual upvote because you have not been posting here long enough for me to give you a real one. 

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Well it certainly isn't referring to multigenerational LDS in, say, England, rather just a particular line most likely developed when Mormons went West to Utah into relative isolation. Sounds like it was long enough to produce a distinguished genetic line. 

Do you mean a distinctive genetic line? Your sentence is more understandable if you do.