"Mormon" as a Genetic Ethnicity?

[Emily]

So I looked further into this article, and unsurprisingly, it's specifically worded as clickbait for the author's podcast. Hence the over-emotive choice of terms. I went ahead and listened to the relevant episode of the  podcast.

The story in the podcast is quite different. The family isn't religious and it doesn't sound like they identify culturally with the Jewish community.  There was no shock or consternation over "Mormon" ancestors on the initial test results, just a puzzled reaction because the test results were different from what the father expected.

His mother was Ashkanazi Jew and his father was Dutch. However, his DNA report said he was half Jewish / half Swedish/Netherlands. In the podcast, they didn't even pay attention to the report's "community note",  which mentioned the Mormon Pioneer ancestry, until after they'd already determined they had blood relatives in Utah.

Further research revealed the Dad and his brother were the product of artificial insemination (both from the same donor) of a Utah man who had moved to Phoenix in the fifties. 

With typical 1950s reticence, their mother had only ever told the brothers they were the product of a "medical miracle", without giving them details. They'd always assumed the man who had raised them was their biological father. Hence their surprise in finding out they weren't Dutch.

Both of the author's grandparents were dead by the time his father got a DNA report, and the donor was dead as well, so they have a lot of unanswered questions, and a large bunch of Utah relatives they aren't quite sure what to do with. The results of the test were upsetting, but only because the men felt like their parents had deceived them - not because they were upset to find out they were "Mormon".

 

[Emily]

5 minutes ago, Emily said:

. However, his DNA report said he was half Jewish / half Swedish/Netherlands

Maybe it was Netherlands/ Scandanavian or Swedish/Scandanavian. I didn't take notes. 😄  Anyway, it wasn't Dutch.

My husband is part of that whole "Pioneer-crossed the plains-got sent to Arizona by Brigham Young" community. I should see if his report has been updated recently with a community note to that effect. It sounds like it was added in the last couple of years.

[Calm]

57 minutes ago, Emily said:

Both of the author's grandparents were dead by the time his father got a DNA report, and the donor was dead as well, so they have a lot of unanswered questions, and a large bunch of Utah relatives they aren't quite sure what to do with. The results of the test were upsetting, but only because the men felt like their parents had deceived them - not because they were upset to find out they were "Mormon".

Thank you for taking the time to get more info. Given the other examples they used, I was thinking the shock was likely due to finding out a parent or grandparent wasn’t a biological relative after all and they had been deceived by someone.  I was also thinking they were being vague due to discretion (didn’t want to say the father’s mom or grandmother was an adulterer...probably wouldn’t have been so upsetting if it was an ancestor they hadn’t personally known), which was strange given the choice to broadcast the info in such an emotional, attention grabbing way.  That it was presented as “I am Mormon!?!?” as opposed to “what the hell, my dad isn’t my dad!” (or grandpa) when the second is so much more important surely came across as storytelling to me rather than reality. 
 

However, it being a promo for a podcast clears up why the author chose to present it that way. If he had explained it was a case of artificial insemination that had been obscurely explained (“modern miracle”) with a not unexpected for the time Victorian reluctance, that tells the story enough that I am guessing that most would not be curious enough to click on the podcast.  Instead the lurid, emotional prose with the ‘murder, mayhem, marital betrayal’ cliffhanger (which was it?!?) brings in the ‘clickbait factor, as you said. 
 

Quote

Infidelity. Blackmail. Murder mysteries. Kidnapping. Clandestine artificial insemination. These families have experienced it all. Their DNA plots sound more like blockbuster thrillers, but behind that are the emotional firsthand accounts of people who’ve had to pick up the pieces of their lives and start all over again.

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Calm

[Ahab]

16 hours ago, Raingirl said:

Again, you fail miserably when it comes to reading comprehension.  Whether by deliberately choosing to misunderstand my post, or by a genuine lack of intelligence, you fail spectacularly at reading comprehension. This does not surprise anyone who has encountered you here or elsewhere. 
 

You think you insult me with your dislike. Too funny.   
 

My condolences to your daughter-in-law. 
 

 

More of you to not like.  And Calm liked your post which shows she likes seeing people who talk to me the way you did.  

Carry on, Mormon girl.  You can believe whatever you want to believe.

[Ahab]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You are telling her that you know what she wrote/ meant to write BETTER than she did.

A) illogical

B) Insulting by implying you are some sort of mind reader

Oy Vey!

She said something about Jewish law and I said Jewish law is a cultural/religious thing not a genetic thing.  You can agree with whoever you want to agree with.

[BlueDreams]

23 hours ago, smac97 said:

I'm curious as to how this works.  How is "Mountain West Mormon Pioneers" a genetic thing?  Can anyone weigh in?

The way most the genetic tests work is through population correlations. As in your genes have similar small divergences with certain other groups endemic to a specific area. I’ve watched a few where they would name a certain group that’s say apart of an enclave community in the US from the 1800’s or something. Early mormon pioneers would fit that bill. A specific population moved in bulk to the mountain west and started breeding almost entirely with each other, making their dna over time minutely distinctive from surrounding pops and even their original homelands. Which is why I almost always have shared ancestors with someone in the church who has pioneer ancestry when we compare notes. Obviously that’s not all the church and only the subsection tied to the mountain west. But it wouldn’t surprise me that that could be a thing. 
 

 With luv, 

BD 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

She said something about Jewish law and I said Jewish law is a cultural/religious thing not a genetic thing.  You can agree with whoever you want to agree with.

I think you are not grokking the words before you

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I think you are not grokking the words before you

It is obvious to me that you think so.

[Stargazer]

On 2/25/2021 at 9:43 PM, smac97 said:

But if "Mormon" ethnicity means "English/Danish," why not just say "English/Danish"?  

And how can "Mormon" (meaning "English/Danish") be an ethnicity given that a substantial number - even a majority, I suspect - of "Mormons" are not of English/Danish extraction?  

Conflating religion with ethnicity seems a bit odd.  Wikipedia has an article about "ethnoreligious groups," and "Mormons" are included.

I guess I have always viewes "ethnicity" as something over which we have no control.  I am of mostly Scottish and English extraction, with a smattering of French and German.  I can't do anything to change these origins.  I didn't choose my ancestry.  But I do choose to be a Latter-day Saint.

Thanks,

-Smac

Under the circumstances, I don't think it's odd to have a genetic class identified as Mormon, since it clearly refers to Mormon pioneers. It's not an ethnicity, per se, but if their research shows that certain genetic grouping show up as LDS pioneers, then if they see it again with subsequent subscribers, then they can apply the classification to them as well. It can also be a "false positive" in the case of someone whose family split off into part member family groups. Say the parents and the younger children joined the Church somewhere in Scandinavia and immigrated to Zion, but the oldest child did not convert and stayed in the mother country, perhaps migrating later or maybe not. The descendants of that exception person could very well get identified as of Mormon pioneer stock, if they eventually migrated themselves.

I signed up for Ancestry's DNA program, and part of my heritage is listed as Southwestern Quebec, New York & Vermont French Settlers. This is not an "ethnic group" is it. It is a geographic origin group. And in the case, it describes part of my heritage that I already knew about, so no surprise. 

[Stargazer]

18 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I can think of one, who was my classmate at UCLA, Mayim Bialik (of TV Blossom fame).  She sent for a DNA test, and turned out to be 100% Jewish.  What is funny is that she married a Mormon, so now her kids are 50% Jewish in DNA, but much more Jewish in ethnicity.

Wow! But surely you mean "of Big Bang Theory" fame!

According to Wiki, she and her children's father divorced in 2012. I always assumed he was Jewish as well, since his surname is Stone (a common Jewish surname).  Of course, he could be Jewish AND Mormon. 

ETA: and I see that someone else brought up BBT before I did. Typical

By the way, I've never watched a complete episode of Big Bang Theory, but through YouTube have watched a few scenes. It can be quite funny and even clever at times. My wife loves the show. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Stargazer
added detail

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Under the circumstances, I don't think it's odd to have a genetic class identified as Mormon, since it clearly refers to Mormon pioneers. It's not an ethnicity, per se, but if their research shows that certain genetic grouping show up as LDS pioneers, then if they see it again with subsequent subscribers, then they can apply the classification to them as well. It can also be a "false positive" in the case of someone whose family split off into part member family groups. Say the parents and the younger children joined the Church somewhere in Scandinavia and immigrated to Zion, but the oldest child did not convert and stayed in the mother country, perhaps migrating later or maybe not. The descendants of that exception person could very well get identified as of Mormon pioneer stock, if they eventually migrated themselves.

I signed up for Ancestry's DNA program, and part of my heritage is listed as Southwestern Quebec, New York & Vermont French Settlers. This is not an "ethnic group" is it. It is a geographic origin group. And in the case, it describes part of my heritage that I already knew about, so no surprise. 

It's just more evidence of how whacky things are and are getting in this world now.

Used to be that when someone said they were an Israelite, that meant they were a descendant of a man named Israel.  Now when anyone lives in an area where a lot of Israelites once lived, that was also named Israel, they get to be called an Israelite.

Doesn't matter one bit, these days, whether or not those people are descendants of that man named Israel.  All; that matters is where they live or lived.

I may just have to write to my Congress man or woman to complain about this, fat lot of good that will do.  WHEN WILL THIS MADNESS END ?!?!?

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Under the circumstances, I don't think it's odd to have a genetic class identified as Mormon, since it clearly refers to Mormon pioneers. It's not an ethnicity, per se, but if their research shows that certain genetic grouping show up as LDS pioneers, then if they see it again with subsequent subscribers, then they can apply the classification to them as well. It can also be a "false positive" in the case of someone whose family split off into part member family groups. Say the parents and the younger children joined the Church somewhere in Scandinavia and immigrated to Zion, but the oldest child did not convert and stayed in the mother country, perhaps migrating later or maybe not. The descendants of that exception person could very well get identified as of Mormon pioneer stock, if they eventually migrated themselves.

I signed up for Ancestry's DNA program, and part of my heritage is listed as Southwestern Quebec, New York & Vermont French Settlers. This is not an "ethnic group" is it. It is a geographic origin group. And in the case, it describes part of my heritage that I already knew about, so no surprise. 

I guess it's sort of like saying something is in your blood, like the Idiom. Or like "Mormonism is in my blood". 

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Wow! But surely you mean "of Big Bang Theory" fame!...............

Her UCLA years were between "Blossom" and "BBT," neither of which I have ever watched.

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Under the circumstances, I don't think it's odd to have a genetic class identified as Mormon, since it clearly refers to Mormon pioneers. It's not an ethnicity, per se, but if their research shows that certain genetic grouping show up as LDS pioneers, then if they see it again with subsequent subscribers, then they can apply the classification to them as well. It can also be a "false positive" in the case of someone whose family split off into part member family groups. Say the parents and the younger children joined the Church somewhere in Scandinavia and immigrated to Zion, but the oldest child did not convert and stayed in the mother country, perhaps migrating later or maybe not. The descendants of that exception person could very well get identified as of Mormon pioneer stock, if they eventually migrated themselves.

I signed up for Ancestry's DNA program, and part of my heritage is listed as Southwestern Quebec, New York & Vermont French Settlers. This is not an "ethnic group" is it. It is a geographic origin group. And in the case, it describes part of my heritage that I already knew about, so no surprise. 

It's also like the "Great Migration" of millions of Black families from the Deep South to find jobs in the North in the 30s and 40s.  They were intact nuclear families trying to live the American dream, and their DNA can be charted same way as the European pioneers heading for the Great Basin.  One group heading to SLC, and the other going to MoTown.

[Emily]

On 2/26/2021 at 10:03 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

It's also like the "Great Migration" of millions of Black families from the Deep South to find jobs in the North in the 30s and 40s.  They were intact nuclear families trying to live the American dream, and their DNA can be charted same way as the European pioneers heading for the Great Basin.  One group heading to SLC, and the other going to MoTown.

What is the name given to the genetic group that settled in Motown? That would be entirely cool to open your report and find out you were part of the "Motown Pioneer" community. 

[Emily]

On 2/26/2021 at 1:57 AM, Calm said:

Instead the lurid, emotional prose with the ‘murder, mayhem, marital betrayal’ cliffhanger (which was it?!?) brings in the ‘clickbait factor, as you said. 

I didn't listen to all the podcasts, just the one about the Father's DNA test. There may have been murder, mayhem and marital betrayal in some of the others, but that one was pretty mundane. The only salacious thing about the whole podcast was that the Father wanted to get a DNA test specifically to find out if he had any illegitimate children because he was into the sixties "free love" scene in his youth. Ironic that he ended up with a bunch of Mormon cousins instead. 

The author seems to feel that DNA tests should come with warnings about the potential life destroying results.

I'm not sure how they'd word that kind of label though: "Beware, use of this product may be hazardous to your parents marriage." ???

 

[Rajah Manchou]

Saw this in another channel, and though of you all: