Tacenda Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: That is just ridiculous, those who attacked the capital were just a tiny fraction of those that came to Washington D.C., what do you have to be ashamed of, were you somehow responsible? Don’t buy into this white guilt nonsense, that the media tries to indict all white people with. I have never done anything in my life for which I should be ashamed of for being white. I have done things a human with all the flaws that all humans suffer from, which includes all races. Or, are you ashamed to being a human being as well. Some women also entered the capital building, are you ashamed of being a woman as well? I believe there is white privilege, and think if we don't acknowledge that it exists, we won't make changes as quickly. https://www.cpt.org/files/Undoing Racism - Understanding White Privilege - Kendall.pdf Edited February 12, 2021 by Tacenda Link to comment
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 21 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I believe there is white privilege, and think if we don't acknowledge that it exists, we won't make changes as quickly. https://www.cpt.org/files/Undoing Racism - Understanding White Privilege - Kendall.pdf Change quickly into what? Why are you privileged, and how do you think you became so? Link to comment
Tacenda Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 Just now, Bill “Papa” Lee said: Change quickly into what? Why are you privileged, and how do you think you became so? Well, maybe you need to read what the article states. I don't deserve anything. Link to comment
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 24 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Well, maybe you need to read what the article states. I don't deserve anything. I have read many of these, and most if not all come out of made-up classes in various universities, created non-degrees that only hurt the students. They are designed “not to show privilege”, but to “instill guilt”, based upon race. Something none us can control, nor govern. It is still “prejudice based upon race”. Such prejudice has always been wrong, so reversing it, does not somehow make it right. Again, what is it you feel we need to “change quickly”? 1 Link to comment
longview Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 On 2/11/2021 at 12:23 PM, Robert F. Smith said: While it is true that the Book of Abraham says that the first King of Egypt was a descendant of Ham and therefore cursed as to the priesthood, Egyptus could not have been the seed of Cain (only the family of Noah survived the Flood), and there is no Scriptural warrant for such a belief. Need clarification here. There is a good chance that none of the wives of Shem, Japheth and Ham were related to their parents (Noah and his wife). How would you declare the lineage of the wives? Link to comment
Tacenda Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: I have read many of these, and most if not all come out of made-up classes in various universities, created non-degrees that only hurt the students. They are designed “not to show privilege”, but to “instill guilt”, based upon race. Something none us can control, nor govern. It is still “prejudice based upon race”. Such prejudice has always been wrong, so reversing it, does not somehow make it right. Again, what is it you feel we need to “change quickly”? Educate white nationalists or white supremists out there. Side note, I'm glad that Biden restored what Trump took away...the ban on diversity and sensitivity training. Also, history is flawed in our education system. And there is a lack of true American Indian History in textbooks. Edited February 13, 2021 by Tacenda Link to comment
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Tacenda said: Educate white nationalists or white supremists out there. Side note, I'm glad that Biden restored what Trump took away...the ban on diversity and sensitivity training. Please, do not post politics, unless you are trying to shut down this discussion. I live in the South, I do not know, nor do I have any friends or acquaintances who are “White Nationalists”. But one thing I can tell you, is those who hate, have no desire to be taught anything. They are raised to hate, or if imprisoned because members of such groups. Sadly, I have had to deal with many who seemed only to hate while in law-enforcement, but that is another matter. They learned this in their homes, not in schools, in fact most who were and are eaten up with hate, seldom get a High School education. But, please do not bring politics into any discussions on this website! Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 On 2/11/2021 at 12:54 PM, rodheadlee said: I stopped believing anything that CNN puts up ever since they got busted filming from a rooftop in Texas when they claimed they were filming from a rooftop in Baghdad. Well you see they had astrally projected themselves from Texas to Baghdad which causes it to shift experientially to "real Baghdad" while retaining the accidents and appearances of Texas. So the substance of the film really was from Baghdad while retaining the appearances of Texas. Boy you just don't know anything about hocus pocus, do you? Cheesh! https://www.gingersoftware.com/content/phrases/hocus-pocus/ 1 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 20 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: Please, do not post politics, unless you are trying to shut down this discussion. I live in the South, I do not know, nor do I have any friends or acquaintances who are “White Nationalists”. But one thing I can tell you, is those who hate, have no desire to be taught anything. They are raised to hate, or if imprisoned because members of such groups. Sadly, I have had to deal with many who seemed only to hate while in law-enforcement, but that is another matter. They learned this in their homes, not in schools, in fact most who were and are eaten up with hate, seldom get a High School education. But, please do not bring politics into any discussions on this website! Sorry about that! Link to comment
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 13 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Sorry about that! No worries, I just don’t want you to get in trouble. Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 7 hours ago, longview said: Need clarification here. There is a good chance that none of the wives of Shem, Japheth and Ham were related to their parents (Noah and his wife). How would you declare the lineage of the wives? Good point. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We have a similar problem with the wives of Cain and Abel. Just because they are unmentioned doesn't mean they weren't there. Maybe they were Neanderthals. Link to comment
Calm Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Good point. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We have a similar problem with the wives of Cain and Abel. Just because they are unmentioned doesn't mean they weren't there. Maybe they were Neanderthals. Even if one of the wives was a descendant of Cain, that would mean all her sons would be cursed if the Curse of Cain was meant to be for his descendants and not just himself. And yet only one son is identified as cursed...because of what his dad did, not because of his mother. Link to comment
Stargazer Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 11 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: Simply not true, the slave trade started long before the United States came into being, it was started by the Dutch, and other European Countries. Also the three sons of Noah were, (or are) attributive to the three primary people’s of the world, in the Old Testament. Of course much of the OT was passed down by “oral traditions”, so who knows what is really true. Well, yes, but also no. The Dutch were just one of those peoples who trafficked in slaves. Way before the Dutch were the North African Arabic people, who raided everywhere for slaves, including white Europe and black sub-Saharan Africa. Slavery itself was (and still is) a human scourge -- it's not tied to any one race, nation or age. And blaming the USA for it, as if the USA invented it, is the most ridiculous perversion of all. The USA was one of the first countries to explicitly outlaw slavery, and fought a huge war with itself to do so. 2 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 15 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: Simply not true, the slave trade started long before the United States came into being, it was started by the Dutch, and other European Countries. Also the three sons of Noah were, (or are) attributive to the three primary people’s of the world, in the Old Testament. Of course much of the OT was passed down by “oral traditions”, so who knows what is really true. I said that the Curse of Cain explanation came from American Protestants. Slavery has been around for millenia though strictly racial slavery is relatively rare historically and came to the forefront in the United States who defended it. 3 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Stargazer said: Well, yes, but also no. The Dutch were just one of those peoples who trafficked in slaves. Way before the Dutch were the North African Arabic people, who raided everywhere for slaves, including white Europe and black sub-Saharan Africa. Slavery itself was (and still is) a human scourge -- it's not tied to any one race, nation or age. And blaming the USA for it, as if the USA invented it, is the most ridiculous perversion of all. The USA was one of the first countries to explicitly outlaw slavery, and fought a huge war with itself to do so. Slavery is old but the US did bring back a widespread market for it and propagated and maintained a strict racial element in their practice of slavery. The US was not one of the first nations to explicitly ban it. Britain and France and many other European nations beat them to it. Admittedly France waffled back and forth but still explicitly banned it first. Most of Europe was turning away from it while a large part of the United States was doubling down on it. We had to fight a war over it because we were not gradually ending it like much of the rest of the world was. US defense of it allowed the institution to survive longer. The American South didn’t want to give up their quasi-feudal society. There were still holdouts with legal slavery (mostly undeveloped nations and tribal societies) but many of them ended it due to League of Nations economic pressure in the interwar period. The last nation on Earth to officially ban slavery was in 1981 but it was rare then. Of course slavery hasn’t ended. It has either gone underground or, in a few nations, occurs with tacit permission while being nominally illegal. Edited February 13, 2021 by The Nehor 2 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, Tacenda said: I believe there is white privilege, and think if we don't acknowledge that it exists, we won't make changes as quickly. https://www.cpt.org/files/Undoing Racism - Understanding White Privilege - Kendall.pdf Recognizing the reality of white privilege is not about feeling shame. It is about recognizing ‘the facts’ and taking steps to change the system to increase equality. Shame is counterproductive unless it is warranted if you are actively supporting unfairness. In fact the whole being ‘ashamed’ thing is seen by many as an expression of privilege. It is a twisted way of ‘making it all about the privileged’ again. Edited February 13, 2021 by The Nehor 2 Link to comment
Calm Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 7 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Britain and France and many other European nations beat them to it. Haiti beat the US. Though it has a massive problem with human trafficking these days. 1 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Calm said: Haiti beat the US. Though it has a massive problem with human trafficking these days. Since they won their freedom from France in a slave revolt it makes sense. If you want some sad reading look into how Protestant groups in Haiti argued that Haiti won their freedom through some kind of demonic or satanic pact. This was trumpeted quite loudly and continues to be repeated amongst American Protestant groups, particularly in the Southern United States. A suspicious person would wonder why foreigners with no ‘skin in the game’ would be so invested in believing a slave revolt (surely one of the most justified kinds of revolts) is literally diabolic. Edited February 13, 2021 by The Nehor 2 Link to comment
Calm Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Since they won their freedom from France in a slave revolt it makes sense. If you want some sad reading look into how Protestant groups in Haiti argued that Haiti won their freedom through some kind of demonic or satanic pact. This was trumpeted quite loudly and continues to be repeated amongst American Protestant groups, particularly in the Southern United States. A suspicious person would wonder why foreigners with no ‘skin in the game’ would be so invested in believing a slave revolt (surely one of the most justified kinds of revolts) as diabolical. That country has been royally shafted since its beginnings. Oh so noble France demanding restitution for its lost ‘property’. It was still being paid off in 1947. Link to comment
Stargazer Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 26 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Slavery is old but the US did bring back a widespread market for it and propagated and maintained a strict racial element in their practice of slavery. The US was not one of the first nations to explicitly ban it. Britain and France and many other European nations beat them to it. Admittedly France waffled back and forth but still explicitly banned it first. Most of Europe was turning away from it while a large part of the United States was doubling down on it. We had to fight a war over it because we were not gradually ending it like much of the rest of the world was. US defense of it. There were still holdouts with legal slavery (mostly undeveloped nations and tribal societies) but many of them ended it due to League of Nations economic pressure in the interwar period. The last nation on Earth to officially ban slavery was in 1981 but it was rare then. Of course slavery hasn’t ended. It has either gone underground or, in a few nations, occurs with tacit permission while being nominally illegal. With respect, like too many others, you have a propensity to blame the US as if it were a somehow one of the principal players worldwide. It wasn't. Not even the racial element present in US slavery was unique. I'd ask for a CFR for the ridiculous claim that "the US did bring back a widespread market for it", but it'd be dragging the thread fully off topic to address it fully. I'll just say that it's poppycock that "the US did bring back a widespread market for it" and leave it at that. You talk as if the US was out there bringing back slavery after it had either levelled off or was in decline. Utter rot. Importation of slaves into the US was illegal starting in 1809, although of course there was smuggling still going on. In other words, the US stopped participating in the slave trade, it didn't re-ignite it. The British were still participating in the Atlantic slave trade until 1807, even though slavery was technically illegal in Britain by then. It's also poppycock that the rest of the world was gradually ending it, and that's why we had to fight a war over it. Even before importation of slaves was illegal in the US, American ships weren't at all major players in the Atlantic slave trade; they were drops in the bucket. The major players were, in order of volume, the Portuguese, the British, the Spanish, the French, the Dutch, and the Danish -- and in every single one of these countries slavery had been illegal even before Columbus, yet they were still pleased as punch to make money off it. And of course, Belgium later went off conquering Africans in Africa and enslaved them where they stood, on into the 20th century. Getting rich from slavery wasn't just a European thing, either. By and large, Europeans were not the ones who were capturing Africans to sell into slavery. Other Africans were complicit, and fully believed that what they were doing was right. In 1840 the King of Dahomey proclaimed "The slave trade is the ruling principle of my people. It is the source and the glory of their wealth ... the mother lulls the child to sleep with notes of triumph over an enemy reduced to slavery." When Britain decided to stop participating in the slave trade, the King of Bonny (now in Nigeria) said "We think this trade must go on. That is the verdict of our oracle and the priests. They say that your country, however great, can never stop a trade ordained by God himself." And well before Europeans were buying slaves in Africa, Africans had been enslaving other Africans for centuries. American shores were the recipients of only 9.7% of the Africans arriving into slavery. If you want to go off at someone, try the Portuguese; they were the slavers par excellance. And most of their "take" went to Brazil. 38% of all slaves in the Atlantic slave trade were taken to Brazil, and let's not even get started about how many Indians in Brazil were enslaved. Brazil didn't abolish slavery until 1888. So please, stop acting like the USA was somehow the Big Bad Country because of slavery. And please stop trying to take the blame, or impugning blame to others, for what was halted 156 years ago in this country. The phrase "one of the first" does not mean "the first". You're a smart man, but your knowledge of this phase of history is woefully stuck in political talking points. You need to educate yourself. Suggestions from Wikipedia: Slavery Timeline of abolition of slavery and serfdom Atlantic slave trade Slavery in the 21st Century 2 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 (edited) 19 hours ago, Calm said: Even if one of the wives was a descendant of Cain, that would mean all her sons would be cursed if the Curse of Cain was meant to be for his descendants and not just himself. And yet only one son is identified as cursed...because of what his dad did, not because of his mother. Yes, and that would be the patrilineal principle at work. Priesthood within the tribe of Levi, for example, is transmitted only from father to son. Edited February 14, 2021 by Robert F. Smith 1 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, The Nehor said: Recognizing the reality of white privilege is not about feeling shame. It is about recognizing ‘the facts’ and taking steps to change the system to increase equality. Shame is counterproductive unless it is warranted if you are actively supporting unfairness. In fact the whole being ‘ashamed’ thing is seen by many as an expression of privilege. It is a twisted way of ‘making it all about the privileged’ again. Thanks for this input! Definitely something to think about. I guess it's like when we say we are sorry for someone's loss, I guess I'm feeling ashamed for the people out there, that are exploding across the nation, people that think their race is being taken away or something, by acknowledging that black lives matter, or affecting their race in some way. We are going to see a huge uprising, none that has ever been seen before, who does that remind you of, but true unless we can get a hold of the deep state of racism and clean out the cancer. Edited February 13, 2021 by Tacenda Link to comment
carbon dioxide Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 (edited) On 2/11/2021 at 12:09 PM, Tacenda said: All I can say is I'm ashamed of my white race, especially after watching the impeachment trial, with so many white nationalists that stormed the capitol. I am not ashamed of my race because there are some dumb whites out there. Should blacks be ashamed of their race because of the barbaric things blacks sometimes do to each other in Africa? Edited February 13, 2021 by carbon dioxide Link to comment
Tacenda Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: I am not ashamed of my race because there are some dumb whites out there. Should blacks be ashamed of their race because of the barbaric things blacks sometimes do to each other in Africa? Touche'! Or not..I'm sure there are plenty of blacks that are ashamed as well, I guess it's different strokes for different folks! Ashamed also means embarrassed, so maybe I should trade the word for that one. Edited February 13, 2021 by Tacenda Link to comment
carbon dioxide Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 (edited) delete, avoiding the politics Edited February 13, 2021 by carbon dioxide Link to comment
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