The Priesthood and Arabs

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I am pretty sure that trying to debunk your false facts and insistence upon US being the biggest baddest wolf in all this is going to be a waste of time and bandwidth. The links I provided show clearly that most of what you're saying here is little more than pathetic chest-beating "mea culpa! mea culpa!" Did you read any of what I linked to? It was advance CFR for all that I wrote.

And if you insist upon tarring the US with the race-centricness of slavery, as if we invented it, I will simply direct your attention to the Japanese and Chinese, who still now regard outsiders as racially inferior. 

And by the way, I've visited and lived in the Southern states both during the mid-stages of the Civil Rights era and in more modern times, and believe me, things are far better now than they ever were. Of course they could be better, don't doubt that, but they will get better if people don't constantly continue to stir things up like they've been doing recently.

All your links were just to wikipedia.

I did not suggest that the US invented slavery. Slavery has probably existed for almost as long as humanity has had the ability to implement it. I suggested that the US hung on to it much longer and perpetuated and fed it with a lot of racist dogma that is still plaguing us to this day.

Things may be far better but they are not 'good enough'. I see things as currently getting worse with a regressive backlash. I hope it subsides. I want the United States to be the nation its most pragmatic yet idealistic dreamers could envision.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Yes, and no.  But paying a price is not necessarily an atonement. Consider a man who murders another man and who is put to death himself. He has paid a price, but he has not atoned in the eternal sense.  This is because God will not consider his earthly punishment as sufficient. If he cannot repent, he will suffer in an eternal sense - and that suffering will be far, far beyond what he suffered in mortality.

I say that Nations cannot atone, because a Nation is not a person. Only persons can atone, and only for their individual acts. Thus, Germany cannot atone for having started WW2, simply because Germany didn't start it. It was started by evil men (and one man in particular), and evil acts were committed in connection with it, and those acts were committed by individuals, not by any country. But though they did not start the war, the German people did suffer for it.  My late wife's family lived in what was then Lithuania when Hitler was elected Chancellor of Germany in 1933, so they could not vote for him. Neither my father-in-law nor my mother-in-law were involved in any acts of evil committed during that war -- my father-in-law was a non-combatant who worked as a machinist in a German factory. But both of them suffered as a result of the war; and my father-in-law died in Soviet captivity at war's end. They had nothing to atone for in connection with the war Germany started, but they suffered nonetheless.

 

In giving a message of comfort during recent events Arnold Schwarzenegger posted a video where he talked about seeing the fallout of fascist Germany and how it twisted so many people. It was very interesting to hear how he saw the weight of their sins (though he didn't use those words) on those involved in the horrible conflict.

He gets the bit about how swords are forged a bit wrong but what is behind the analogy is good.

Edited to add: He does talk about being abused as a child. He handles it carefully and well but be advised before clicking.

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by The Nehor

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On 2/14/2021 at 9:05 PM, Tacenda said:

I didn't say all whites, just those that are out right racist, I'm allowed.

You are allowed to say most anything. As I pointed out, “there were women in that group”, are you also ashamed of being a woman? “There was all at least one from Utah”, are you ashamed of being from Utah? Everyone there were not posing any threat, they just got caught up in the moment and the crowd. One woman was “trampled to death”. One unarmed woman was shot to death, by A Capital Police Officer. There was also media there, trying to catch it all on camera. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Everyone there were not posing any threat,

Do you mean “not everyone there was posing a threat”?  Iow, some were there expecting to simply protest with no intent to trespass or do anything criminal or harmful to anyone?

[Tacenda]

23 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

You are allowed to say most anything. As I pointed out, “there were women in that group”, are you also ashamed of being a woman? “There was all at least one from Utah”, are you ashamed of being from Utah? Everyone there were not posing any threat, they just got caught up in the moment and the crowd. One woman was “trampled to death”. One unarmed woman was shot to death, by A Capital Police Officer. There was also media there, trying to catch it all on camera. 

Of course I'm not ashamed of being a woman, but that doesn't mean I'm not ashamed of their behavior. Have you heard of the expression, "shame on you"? (I'm sure you have)

My former neighbor actually protested at the Utah capitol during all the hoopla, I think the weekend before January 6th, she and I spoke at a baby shower. My daughter's friends marched on the day the US capitol had the insurrection happen. Many of my friends and even my family are supportive of some of these groups that think Trump was robbed. I'm surrounded by them, my own children as well, so I'm a lonely person at times. I don't think they are racists. But there were out right racists that stormed the capitol. In the article below it discusses those groups. And IMO, these groups will take on others and recruit them. That's my worry.

https://theconversation.com/white-supremacists-who-stormed-us-capitol-are-only-the-most-visible-product-of-racism-152295

[Calm]

We got way off topic, maybe Mark would like us to get back on.

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

We got way off topic, maybe Mark would like us to get back on.

I was thinking the same thing. But had to respond to Papa, or felt the need to.

[Stargazer]

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

All your links were just to wikipedia.

You have a problem with this? "just to wikipedia"? You want to be directed to the sites that wikipedia references? Most significant articles in Wiki are footnoted heavily to reliable sources. Very much including the articles I referred you to.

Wikipedia is encyclopedic. It collects information from multiple sources, and if I were to try to link you to all the sources that Wiki references would this be any better.

How reliable is Wikipedia?

 "In 2005, the peer-reviewed journal Nature asked scientists to compare Wikipedia's scientific articles to those in Encyclopaedia Britannica—"the most scholarly of encyclopedias," according to its own Wiki page. The comparison resulted in a tie; both references contained four serious errors among the 42 articles analyzed by experts. And last year, a study published in the Journal of Clinical Oncology found that Wikipedia had the same level of accuracy and depth in its articles about 10 types of cancer as the Physician Data Query, a professionally edited database maintained by the National Cancer Institute. The self-described "free encyclopedia that anyone can edit" has fared similarly well in most other studies comparing its accuracy to conventional encyclopedias, including studies by The Guardian, PC Pro, Library Journal, the Canadian Library Association, and several peer-reviewed academic studies. "

Wikipedia is a collector of information. Of course it is not gospel-perfect, no human thing can be. But if Nature magazine has a good opinion of it, perhaps you can give it some credence, too.

Jimmy Wales' Wikipedia comes close to Britannica in terms of the accuracy of its science entries, a Nature investigation finds.

Of course it's reliability varies. The same can be said for Britannica.

Quote

I did not suggest that the US invented slavery. Slavery has probably existed for almost as long as humanity has had the ability to implement it. I suggested that the US hung on to it much longer and perpetuated and fed it with a lot of racist dogma that is still plaguing us to this day.

Of course you didn't suggest the US invented it. Did I say that? 

Because you didn't bother to read the article on "Slavery in the 21st century" because apparently, Wikipedia (gasp), you didn't notice that:

"The International Labour Organization[6] estimates that, by their definitions, over 40 million people are in some form of slavery today. 24.9 million people are in forced labor, of whom 16 million people are exploited in the private sector such as domestic work, construction or agriculture; 4.8 million persons in forced sexual exploitation, and 4 million persons in forced labor imposed by state authorities."

That little [6] footnote goes to the ILO itself: https://www.ilo.org/global/publications/books/WCMS_575479/lang--en/index.htm

The US dumped slavery in 1865. That's over 150 years ago. The US hung on to it? It's still out there. In huge numbers.  European countries that had outlawed slavery long before Columbus were just fine with conducting slave trading. They delivered practically all the slaves taken from Africa for hundreds of years. I think their outlawing slavery is pretty darned hollow.

Why do you find it so necessary to castigate the US for it when so many other countries hung on to it to this day?

Never mind.

 

Quote

Things may be far better but they are not 'good enough'. I see things as currently getting worse with a regressive backlash. I hope it subsides. I want the United States to be the nation its most pragmatic yet idealistic dreamers could envision.

How many slaves are there in the United States, compared with other countries?  Oh, yes, there's a regressive backlash in many countries. No question of that. 

Pragmatically, what should the US do about slavery worldwide? 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Stargazer

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

We got way off topic, maybe Mark would like us to get back on.

You are right, I have tried to redirect a few times, but others can let go. Sometimes I hope I can use reply’s to redirect, I have even suggested the same, and asked that it stop. Most of my posts have been entirely on topic, only to be ignored. I will bow out, it it will help.  

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/11/2021 at 11:09 AM, Tacenda said:

All I can say is I'm ashamed of my white race, especially after watching the impeachment trial, with so many white nationalists that stormed the capitol. 

How can you possibly feel guilty for the actions of a few misguided people regardless their color?

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

You are allowed to say most anything. As I pointed out, “there were women in that group”, are you also ashamed of being a woman? “There was all at least one from Utah”, are you ashamed of being from Utah? Everyone there were not posing any threat, they just got caught up in the moment and the crowd. One woman was “trampled to death”. One unarmed woman was shot to death, by A Capital Police Officer. There was also media there, trying to catch it all on camera. 

The unarmed woman who was shot was a QAnon believer convinced that the Democratic Party and the "deep state" are a cabal of satanic pedophiles bent on destroying America. She was outside the Speaker's lobby, an area then occupied by members of Congress and Capitol police officers defending them. The door had been barricaded to keep the violent mob out. One of the glass panels in the door was smashed and she was trying to crawl through to get in.

There was a definite threat. Some were chanting slogans about murdering the Vice-President and the captured dialogue reveals they were looking for members of Congress to kill.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Because you didn't bother to read the article on "Slavery in the 21st century" because apparently, Wikipedia (gasp), you didn't notice that:

"The International Labour Organization[6] estimates that, by their definitions, over 40 million people are in some form of slavery today. 24.9 million people are in forced labor, of whom 16 million people are exploited in the private sector such as domestic work, construction or agriculture; 4.8 million persons in forced sexual exploitation, and 4 million persons in forced labor imposed by state authorities."

That little [6] footnote goes to the ILO itself: https://www.ilo.org/global/publications/books/WCMS_575479/lang--en/index.htm

Modern slavery is largely of a different kind. It is abhorrent.

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The US dumped slavery in 1865. That's over 150 years ago. The US hung on to it? It's still out there. In huge numbers.  European countries that had outlawed slavery long before Columbus were just fine with conducting slave trading. They delivered practically all the slaves taken from Africa for hundreds of years. I think their outlawing slavery is pretty darned hollow.

Yes, the US has hung onto it. Why do you think so many still wave the Confederate battle flag? Why do so many try to paint the South as a noble cause? It also didn't end in 1865. Note that the amendment had an exception and it was used extensively to re- enslave the liberated.

You see the Europeans abandonment of slavery as hollow but hold up the US abandonment as somehow vindicating. Why? Yeah, European ships transported a lot of slaves but why? Because there was a market for it. Also, Europe had most of the transatlantic-capable ships so of course they were transporting most of the slaves. They were also transporting more of almost everything else.

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Why do you find it so necessary to castigate the US for it when so many other countries hung on to it to this day?

Because it is still destroying us.

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

How many slaves are there in the United States, compared with other countries?  Oh, yes, there's a regressive backlash in many countries. No question of that. 

Pragmatically, what should the US do about slavery worldwide? 

When I talk about the legacy of slavery tainting the US I am not talking about the continuation of chattel slavery.

As horrific as it would be both during and after the conflict we should probably invade/liberate North Korea.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

16 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The unarmed woman who was shot was a QAnon believer convinced that the Democratic Party and the "deep state" are a cabal of satanic pedophiles bent on destroying America. She was outside the Speaker's lobby, an area then occupied by members of Congress and Capitol police officers defending them. The door had been barricaded to keep the violent mob out. One of the glass panels in the door was smashed and she was trying to crawl through to get in.

There was a definite threat. Some were chanting slogans about murdering the Vice-President and the captured dialogue reveals they were looking for members of Congress to kill.

Sorry, I promised to bow out of any other debate, except it be on the topic of the thread. If you want to discuss that, then I am game, but no more about politics, white guilt, white nationalism, nor what happened in the U.S. Capital. I have given my word, and will abide by it. 

[MiserereNobis]

On 2/15/2021 at 1:49 PM, Stargazer said:

pathetic chest-beating "mea culpa! mea culpa!"

I personally like this part of the Mass, when I confess that my sins are my fault stemming from my own disordered heart. It puts me in a place of humility, where the grace and love of God shine like a miracle.

[Stargazer]

15 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I personally like this part of the Mass, when I confess that my sins are my fault stemming from my own disordered heart. It puts me in a place of humility, where the grace and love of God shine like a miracle.

Well, I would, too.

Wasn't what I was trying to express, though. Only attended Mass once, many years ago, and there was so much newness to see and hear that I remember little of it. I was going from what my high school Latin teacher used to say when he made a mistake: "Me culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!"

[MiserereNobis]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Well, I would, too.

Wasn't what I was trying to express, though. Only attended Mass once, many years ago, and there was so much newness to see and hear that I remember little of it. I was going from what my high school Latin teacher used to say when he made a mistake: "Me culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!"

Yep. And he got that from Mass   (including tapping your chest with your hand while saying it)

Edited February 18, 2021 by MiserereNobis

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Yep. And he got that from Mass   (including tapping your chest with your hand while saying it)

He might have been Catholic, in fact. He was of Czech origin (referred to himself as a cancelled Czech a couple of times -- this was in Canada, btw), and since pre-Communist Czechoslovakia was 2/3rds Roman Catholic, it was probably likely. But he was also a Latin teacher, so might have been familiar with the wording of the Mass in any case.