Scott Lloyd Posted January 15, 2021 Posted January 15, 2021 (edited) We’re helping our daughter with her online seminary homework. She has been assigned to read and study four separate accounts of the First Vision, recognizing that they are compatible, though not identical. I just told her to retain this assignment in memory to steel her against the nefarious designs of anti-Mormons who might try to use the fact of there being more than one account as a means of destroying her faith. Edited January 15, 2021 by Scott Lloyd 1
rpn Posted January 15, 2021 Posted January 15, 2021 did you watch the multi-episode JS papers podcast on all seven versions and how the fit together, published last year? 1
JustAnAustralian Posted January 15, 2021 Posted January 15, 2021 I think it's great the church has this in the gospel library for easy access now (JSPP has done some great work on it too)
Scott Lloyd Posted January 15, 2021 Author Posted January 15, 2021 7 minutes ago, rpn said: did you watch the multi-episode JS papers podcast on all seven versions and how the fit together, published last year? Not yet. Thanks for the notification.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 15, 2021 Author Posted January 15, 2021 Our daughter just had a question that I confess I don’t have a ready answer for: If Satan has been cast out of God’s presence, and presumably has no divine power or abilities, where do the “powers of darkness” come from that Joseph spoke of in his account of the First Vision? Thoughts?
2BizE Posted January 15, 2021 Posted January 15, 2021 20 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Our daughter just had a question that I confess I don’t have a ready answer for: If Satan has been cast out of God’s presence, and presumably has no divine power or abilities, where do the “powers of darkness” come from that Joseph spoke of in his account of the First Vision? Thoughts? It comes from his (Satan’s) power and priesthoods.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 15, 2021 Author Posted January 15, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, 2BizE said: It comes from his (Satan’s) power and priesthoods. That’s begging the question (circular reasoning). His power comes from his power? Huh? Edited January 15, 2021 by Scott Lloyd
2BizE Posted January 15, 2021 Posted January 15, 2021 Just now, Scott Lloyd said: That’s begging the question (circular reasoning). His power comes from his power? What? There isn’t much known or discussed on this topic. We have some info from the Temple endowment which seems to indicate Satan derived his power from his multiple priesthood’s.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 15, 2021 Author Posted January 15, 2021 10 minutes ago, 2BizE said: There isn’t much known or discussed on this topic. We have some info from the Temple endowment which seems to indicate Satan derived his power from his multiple priesthood’s. If you don’t know, just say so. Or say nothing. I don’t need you to get into temple content on my thread.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 15, 2021 Posted January 15, 2021 51 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Our daughter just had a question that I confess I don’t have a ready answer for: If Satan has been cast out of God’s presence, and presumably has no divine power or abilities, where do the “powers of darkness” come from that Joseph spoke of in his account of the First Vision? .................... Satan and his minions clearly have powers, and we see them exercised in the Garden, in Job, and in the NT, as well as in Joseph's First Vision. Probably has something to do with the necessity of opposition in all things, until the End Time, when Satan has his last hurrah. 3
strappinglad Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 It says Satan was cast out, not that he was stripped of all power. At a minimum , he would retain the power to manipulate others and likely be able to enter into human bodies where allowed . 1
provoman Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: We’re helping our daughter with her online seminary homework. Is this covid related online seminary? If so, I hope online seminary remains an option for people in Utah. And great advice about the information.
Kenngo1969 Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 (edited) I don't really know the answer to her question (what the genesis of the power is), but (while I certainly don't know for sure), to say that God allowed Satan to retain any power would be to say (indirectly, at least) that God is responsible for evil, and I don't think that's the case. If it really is true that: (1) there is opposition in all things (see 2 Nephi 2:11), and if (2) there are divine laws, (3) obedience to which endows one with heavenly power, is the opposite of that: (1) since there is opposition in all things (2) there are evil or "devilish" laws, (3) obedience to which endows one with evil power? If God became God by obedience to divine law, did the Adversary become the devil by "obedience" or adherence to evil law? Certainly, we know that we as humans become subject to that power that we "list to obey." Would spirits be any different? Edited January 16, 2021 by Kenngo1969 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 16, 2021 Author Posted January 16, 2021 20 minutes ago, provoman said: Is this covid related online seminary? If so, I hope online seminary remains an option for people in Utah. And great advice about the information. Yes, she’s taking it online as a pandemic mitigation measure. I think she’d be doing the homework anyway, though.
Tacenda Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Yes, she’s taking it online as a pandemic mitigation measure. I think she’d be doing the homework anyway, though. I think youth today, inoculate if they have a smartphone at their fingertips.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 16, 2021 Author Posted January 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I think youth today, inoculate if they have a smartphone at their fingertips. If the youth are left unguided, the smartphone is as apt to be a means of infection as it is a means of inoculation. She asked me, “If people have questions, why don’t they just ask somebody who knows?” I replied that a good many never get around to asking until they’re halfway or almost all the way out the door. Then their questions are more like accusations. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted January 16, 2021 Author Posted January 16, 2021 29 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: I don't really know the answer to her question (what the genesis of the power is), but (while I certainly don't know for sure), to say that God allowed Satan to retain any power would be to say (indirectly, at least) that God is responsible for evil, and I don't think that's the case. If it really is true that: (1) there is opposition in all things (see 2 Nephi 2:11), and if (2) there are divine laws, (3) obedience to which endows one with heavenly power, is the opposite of that that that: (1) since there is opposition in all things (2) there are evil or "devilish" laws, (3) obedience to which endows one with evil power? If God became God by obedience to divine law, did the Adversary become the devil by "obedience" or adherence to evil law? Certainly, we know that we as humans become subject to that power that we "list to obey." Would spirits be any different? Hmm. You’re making my head swim.
JustAnAustralian Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 (edited) Any thoughts I have on the actual source of Satan's powers would just be guessing. A possible thought process: He was important enough to get a say at the grand council so presumably he had advanced a fair bit. Satan was cast out as a spirit and did not go through the veil, so he retains all his knowledge of the pre-existence as well as being able to act spirit to spirit. He knows how to convince spirits of things (he did it to a third of the hosts of heaven). So as a spirit he can directly attempt to influence our spirits in the same way. Edited January 16, 2021 by JustAnAustralian 2
rongo Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 I've never understood how Satan and those who were cast out with him can manipulate matter (they not having bodies), but they can. There is certainly power there, so being cast out didn't strip them of all power.
Kenngo1969 Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 43 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Hmm. You’re making my head swim. I'm not telling you anything you couldn't learn by watching Star Wars.
JustAnAustralian Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, rongo said: I've never understood how Satan and those who were cast out with him can manipulate matter (they not having bodies), but they can. There is certainly power there, so being cast out didn't strip them of all power. That starts getting into the question of whether power to manipulate matter is inherent to intelligences/spirits, or, if it comes from those with it already (such as Elohim), how the delegation works. Edited January 16, 2021 by JustAnAustralian
carbon dioxide Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: We’re helping our daughter with her online seminary homework. She has been assigned to read and study four separate accounts of the First Vision, recognizing that they are compatible, though not identical. I just told her to retain this assignment in memory to steel her against the nefarious designs of anti-Mormons who might try to use the fact of there being more than one account as a means of destroying her faith. Great. When I tell important stories that happen to me in my life, I never tell them exactly the same. Some times I emphasize one part over another. Sometimes I omit things. I suppose I should just accept the reality that none of these events never happened to me as I never retell them exactly the same every time. 2
rongo Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 15 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said: That starts getting into the question of whether power to manipulate matter is inherent to intelligences/spirits, or, if it comes from those with it already (such as Elohim), how the delegation works. Yes, and how the angel/handshake test in D&C works (as I believe it does) if they can manipulate matter at times. My dad and other missionaries had a terrifying experience in the late 1960s. The mission president's wife called the office missionaries in a panic. When they got to the mission home, the cabinets and doors were opening and shutting, over and over. They tied some shut and blocked others, but the string and obstacles were untied and moved before their eyes, and the slamming continued. The mission president came in and cast out the devils with the authority of the priesthood, and it ceased immediately. One wouldn't think that such a thing in the mission home would have been possible in the first place, but the priesthood immediately had the upper hand. It's the matter-manipulation thing that I don't have an answer to. I believe that we who kept our first estate have power over them, especially because we have bodies, unless we allow access and power. But there are sometimes exceptions.
smac97 Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Our daughter just had a question that I confess I don’t have a ready answer for: If Satan has been cast out of God’s presence, and presumably has no divine power or abilities, where do the “powers of darkness” come from that Joseph spoke of in his account of the First Vision? Thoughts? Satan does have some power. Consider this excerpt from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism: Quote Examples of his partial dominion over the earth granted by the Father are his ability to possess the bodies of animals (Matt. 8:28-32) and to use water to destroy people (D&C 61:14-19). Satan gained the power to tempt those who are accountable to do evil (D&C 29:39), to communicate with individuals to teach them things (usually but not always lies), to possess their bodies, to foster illness and disease, and to cause mortal death. He promotes sin, the doing of evil, which brings spiritual death to the sinner and misery to all those affected. In each of these opportunities, Satan's power is limited: He can do only what he has specific permission from God to do (D&C 121:4; Luke 8:30-33). His power may be taken away by individuals as they hearken to God and as they correctly use the holy priesthood to limit his operations (D&C 50:13-35). ... Satan has power on earth only as individual persons give it to him by succumbing to his temptations (TPJS, p. 187). The agency of human beings is to choose righteousness through the Holy Spirit of God or to choose selfishness through the flesh by succumbing to Satan's temptations (2 Ne. 2:26-29). (Human flesh is not evil, but Satan may tempt humans through their flesh.) Individuals who repent in this life are nevertheless tempted by Satan until their death; then Satan has no power over them ever again. Those who die unrepentant are still in Satan's power in the spirit prison (Alma 34:34-35). All except the sons of perdition will eventually accept Christ and obey him, and thereby escape the dominion of Satan (D&C 76:110). Thus is the Father's plan of agency fulfilled. The phrase "power of the devil" is referenced 7 times in the Book of Mormon, and once in the Doctrine & Covenants. Consider Hugh Nibley: Quote God does not fight Satan: a word from him and Satan is silenced and banished. There is no contest there; in fact we are expressly told that all the power which Satan enjoys here on earth is granted him by God. “We will allow Satan, our common enemy, to try man and to tempt him.” It is man’s strength that is being tested—not God’s. Thanks, -Smac Edited January 16, 2021 by smac97 2
Scott Lloyd Posted January 16, 2021 Author Posted January 16, 2021 19 minutes ago, smac97 said: Satan does have some power. Consider this excerpt from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism: The phrase "power of the devil" is referenced 7 times in the Book of Mormon, and once in the Doctrine & Covenants. Consider Hugh Nibley: Thanks, -Smac Much obliged, Smac.
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