Catholic Publisher Accidentally Uses Angel Moroni on Hymnal Cover

[smac97]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

I don't think it's unreasonable for Catholics to be upset about the picture.

I agree.

Quote

It's a symbol from another religion placed on our liturgical books. It's not anti-mormon to be upset about it. I'd be upset about any non-Catholic symbol being used on a liturgical book.

Again, I agree.

Quote

I'm going to add, too, that if it were just an angel (not Moroni), I still wouldn't want it on the books. It doesn't feel Catholic at all. As 3DOP pointed out, it's indicative of the problems with the new Mass -- there's a subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) rejection of the great history and tradition of Catholic liturgy and overall ethos. Gregorian chant? replace it with sappy folk-style music. Elaborate symbolic vestments? nope, just toss a white robe on the priest. Stations of the cross in the Catholic artistic style? nah, we'll put up some felt posters instead. And these are just surface aesthetic issues. There are deeper problems. As 3DOP aptly said, if you pray and worship like a protestant, you'll start to think and believe like a protestant.

Hmm.  I've long valued the "sacred liturgy" in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  My general sense is that we Latter-day Saints are - as compared to most Protestants - generally more formal and and emphatic in our liturgical practices.  This is particularly so for A) the administration of the Sacrament, B) the "laying on of hands" in various contexts (blessings, ordinations, settings apart) and C) temple worship.

However, as compared to our Catholic friends, we seem to be less formal.  The Mass seems substantially more formal/ritualistic/elaborate as compared to our Sacrament Meeting.  Where the Catholic priest wears "elaborate symbolic vestments," the Latter-day Saint bishop just wears a conservative, everyday business suit.  

Quote

So, I hope the publisher replaced the angel Moroni with some actual Catholic art.

Yes, that seems appropriate.

As a Latter-day Saint, I don't have any particular objection to the depiction of angels as having wings.  However, "{a}ngels are typically depicted in Mormon art as having no wings based on a quote from Joseph Smith ('An angel of God never has wings')") (see also here).

Quote

I do think it's interesting that the regular Catholic posters on the board are traditional Catholics. Who would have thought it.

Hmm.  My (admittedly not-very-well-informed) perception is that "traditional Catholics" tend to take their religion seriously, as opposed to it being just a cultural / traditional / salad bar / take-it-or-leave-it kind of thing.  So worship matters to them.  The (Catholic) Church matters to them.  The doctrines matter.  The day-to-day application of Catholic beliefs and practices matter.

Quote

You know, there's a kinda subtle dig at Moroni in the Salt Lake City cathedral. This is painted on the wall:

 

Ah, well.  Such a "dig" pales in comparison to some of the things some Latter-day Saints have said in the past about the Catholic Church.  I'm glad we are doing better.  We Latter-day Saints and you Catholics agree much more than we disagree.

Here's an interesting anecdocate about the Cathedral of the Madeleine:

Quote

A folk legend states that Brigham Young donated the land where the cathedral stands but the facts are this: when the northwest corner of 1st S and 2nd E was purchased in good faith by Fr. Edward Kelly in November 1866 to build a church, the title was not legally clear. As Father Kelly did want to go through litigation, he asked the contestant to su{b}mit to the mediation of BrighamYoung. President Young found that the good faith purchase was valid.

See also here:

Quote

Brigham Young and other LDS leaders have welcomed other denominations to build their religions in Salt Lake City. By the time the transcontinental railroad was completed in Utah 1869 many other churches already had a foothold in Utah to serve non-Mormon mine and railroad workers. The Catholics, Presbyterians, Jews, Episcopalians, and Greek Orthodox all established themselves late in the 19th century and built large stately churches in Salt Lake City.

And here: Mormon-Catholic tolerance goes back to Brigham Young

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited August 28, 2020 by smac97

[3DOP]

22 hours ago, Ahab said:

This is still one of my favorite hymns.

 

I started work today a little before 4 AM. I enjoyed listening to I. Ron Butterfly before I went to work. I am a little ashamed to say I always liked a band with a similar name and sound to that artist. I don't think that hymn stopped playing in my head until at least after sunrise which is pretty late now in Eastern Kansas. Although I am ashamed to be known to have a predilection for I. Ron, I am pleased to say that I have never watched one episode of the Simpsons. But that was clever, Ahab. Maybe I have missed something. Thanks for your contribution to my work day.

Rory

Edited August 28, 2020 by 3DOP

[Damien the Leper]

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I kind of like Ratzinger.  At least he is a real theologian- don't agree with a lot he says but he speaks the language I understand and makes the points he should for his point of view.

I think Leper is also orthodox.

No, I'm RCC. Had my confirmation in June.

[mfbukowski]

17 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

No, I'm RCC. Had my confirmation in June.

Ok- sorry.  You have taken upon yourself a new name, and have been annointed, and receive the Holy Ghost in a more special way.  That is a very significant occasion!  Congratulations, soldier !

Edited August 28, 2020 by mfbukowski

[3DOP]

25 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

No, I'm RCC. Had my confirmation in June.

Oh shoot...too late. I wanted to say it before you, so I rushed off of my recline, (my competitive nature with wounds of original sin). It is good that you "won". Heh. St. Damien of Molokai? You had to be RCC. A very recent addition, St. Damien the Leper, to the venerable saints of the Roman Catholic Church. Excellent choice. Mine is St. Francis deSales. 

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by 3DOP

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, 3DOP said:

I started work today a little before 4 AM. I enjoyed listening to I. Ron Butterfly before I went to work. I am a little ashamed to say I always liked a band with a similar name and sound to that artist. I don't think that hymn stopped playing in my head until at least after sunrise which is pretty late now in Eastern Kansas. Although I am ashamed to be known to have a predilection for I. Ron, I am pleased to say that I have never watched one episode of the Simpsons. But that was clever, Ahab. Maybe I have missed something. Thanks for your contribution to my work day.

Rory

LOL and I ain't kidding!  Laughed Out Loud.  You cracked me up dude!

Ah, the good old days!

17 minutes later!!! 

[mfbukowski]

4 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Oh shoot...too late. I wanted to say it before you, so I rushed off of my recline, (my competitive nature with wounds of original sin). It is good that you "won". Heh. St. Damien of Molokai? You had to be RCC. A very recent addition, St. Damien, chronologically speaking, to the venerable saints of the Roman Catholic Church. Excellent choice. Mine is St. Francis deSales. 

 

Holy cow you are smart!!

I never caught that connection- !!   Dummy me!!

I took the name "Dominic" because I had a lot of Italian friends- totally stupid reason!!

But at least I liked the story of Dominic Savio !

Edited August 28, 2020 by mfbukowski

[MiserereNobis]

7 hours ago, smac97 said:

Hmm.  My (admittedly not-very-well-informed) perception is that "traditional Catholics" tend to take their religion seriously, as opposed to it being just a cultural / traditional / salad bar / take-it-or-leave-it kind of thing.  So worship matters to them.  The (Catholic) Church matters to them.  The doctrines matter.  The day-to-day application of Catholic beliefs and practices matter.

Actually, in the Catholic world, a traditional Catholic is one who participates in the traditional liturgy prior to the 1970 changes promulgated by Pope Paul VI after the 2nd Vatican Council. There is a wide spectrum of traditional Catholics -- some simply prefer the traditional liturgy, some find defects in the new liturgy, and some reject the new liturgy all together (and then you can go further with those who claim that there is currently no valid pope, but I don't consider them Catholic, so I won't call them traditional Catholic).

Here is a sacred moment from the traditional Mass:

Here is the equivalent moment from the new Mass:

 

[alter idem]

I think it's all a tempest in a teapot. Art is very personal to the artist, of course it's going to depict the inner thoughts , impressions, spirituality of the individual artist. It was a lovely depiction of an angel which reflected beautifully and accurately the angel in Revelation. Catholics believe in the new testament so no wonder it was accepted and approved. But some busybody (imo) had to spoil it by insinuating that the artist was depicting Moroni.

And personally, I love Catholic art and imagery, I was in heaven when we went to Italy last year and visited Cathedrals and museums full of great art and architecture which, hate to tell some, has inspired other religions' art and architecture for centuries, including our own. Should we go through and with a critical eye, purge any art that hints of Catholic inspiration or roots?  I don't know about you all, but I'm sick of this particular trend and where it's leading. We get enough of that going on in the world, we don't need it in our Churches. We should be friendly and supportive, not allowing ourselves to be divided by influences that want to keep us at odds, and I see the seeds of this in this silly dust up. Imo.

[marineland]

On 8/26/2020 at 2:22 PM, smac97 said:

Adherents of the Mormon Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) place a statue of Moroni blowing a trumpet atop many of their temples as a symbol of the mission of to preach their gospel to the world.

I have seen some temples without the Moroni statue.  Why is that?

[smac97]

Just now, marineland said:

I have seen some temples without the Moroni statue.  Why is that?

I think the two main reasons are 1) the statue is not a doctrinal requirement, and 2) the statue may not fit with the overall architecture.  Consider the Lai'e, Cartston, Mesa and Lima Peru Los Olivos Temples: 

From this website:

Quote

There are 34 temples that do not have an angel Moroni statue.  They are the St. George Utah Temple, Logan Utah Temple, Manti Utah Temple, Laie Hawaii Temple, Cardston Alberta Temple, Mesa Arizona Temple, Hamilton New Zealand Temple, Oakland California Temple, Hong Kong China Temple, Paris France Temple, Kinshasa Democratic Republic of the Congo Temple, Port-au-Prince Haiti Temple, Yigo Guam Temple, Praia Cabo Verde Temple, San Juan Puerto Rico Temple, Bangkok Thailand Temple, Auckland New Zealand Temple, Alabang Philippines Temple, Lima Peru Los Olivos Temple, Orem Utah Temple, San Pedro Sula Honduras Temple, Brasília Brazil Temple, Taylorsville Utah Temple, Tooele Valley Utah Temple, Moses Lake Washington Temple, Phnom Penh Cambodia Temple, McAllen Texas Temple, Bengaluru India Temple, Bentonville Arkansas Temple, Cobán Guatemala Temple, Okinawa Japan Temple, Mendoza Argentina Temple, Neiafu Tonga Temple and Pago Pago American Samoa Temple.

Thanks,

-Smac

[alter idem]

4 hours ago, marineland said:

I have seen some temples without the Moroni statue.  Why is that?

Most likely for artistic and design reasons.  But, if you go back to page one on the thread, there was a lot of interesting information on temples and which have them and which don't, in a post by Smac.  Well worth the read.

[3DOP]

19 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Actually, in the Catholic world, a traditional Catholic is one who participates in the traditional liturgy prior to the 1970 changes promulgated by Pope Paul VI after the 2nd Vatican Council. There is a wide spectrum of traditional Catholics -- some simply prefer the traditional liturgy, some find defects in the new liturgy, and some reject the new liturgy all together (and then you can go further with those who claim that there is currently no valid pope, but I don't consider them Catholic, so I won't call them traditional Catholic).

Here is a sacred moment from the traditional Mass:

Here is the equivalent moment from the new Mass:

 

Hi Miserere.

Thanks for putting up the two pictures. You did well in your choice for the Novus Ordo knowing you could have shown something "extraordinary". Ordinary is bad enough. You listed the three kinds of approach to the New Mass for Trad Catholics. 

I have held since I stopped attending the New Mass, that it has the essential form (words) of consecration to make a valid sacrament in a setting that is inappropriate to what you so vividly explained regarding the Holy Sacrifice in a post a few weeks ago. How easy it is to forget that we are really approaching Calvary as we arrive for Mass, present at Calvary during the Mass, and leaving Calvary as we return home. It is much worse with the new liturgy. But also after the Council, Catholics went wild with the destruction of church architecture and art that had adorned the churches for centuries. Protestants don't like the kind of altar that is in the first picture? Okay, neither do we Catholics. How about a curtain instead? Protestants don't kneel to receive their Lord's Supper on the tongue. Okay, let's rip out the altar rail and give the Body of Christ to people standing to receive the Host in their own hands. (For LDS: Customarily only ordained ministers handle the sacred species because their hands have been sanctified in ordinations for that very purpose. If it is necessary for lay people to even handle the chalice and other instruments used during Mass and Benediction, they used wear gloves or use a linen cloth so that their unsanctified hands do not touch even these instruments set aside for sacred usage. This helped the faithful to have greater reverence for the priesthood and our High Priest, our Lord Jesus Christ Himself in the Blessed Sacrament. All of this is gone from the New Mass where sometimes, inappropriately attired lay men and women put God into the hands of the faithful. It is no wonder to me at all that young people growing up in such a religious atmosphere would grow to question whether what appears to be a piece of bread is really God.)

It isn't always easy to believe what the Church teaches about the Mass. Catholics can lose their faith, and especially is this so when the Church herself acts almost as though there is nothing mysterious surrounding the proposed focal point of heaven and earth. The Novus Ordo makes it more difficult to believe that the purpose of Creation itself, is taking place when Christ becomes present on the altar. The Traditional Latin Mass itself is, we know, but a dim reflection of the true realities. We attempt in our smallness to make a church and a ceremony that is appropriate to help us meaningfully witness the most important event in world history, where eternity is transcending time itself. The Father loves His children's failures when we make our feeble attempts to present the mysterious realities which we profess to believe, in an earthly setting that is not easily made suitable to something infinitely sublime. This is why nothing profane and "ordinary" should be admitted. Silence, reverence, grand works of art, architecture made to raise one's eyes upwards, an heavenly tongue which is used only in the liturgy, ornate vestments on the clergy, Sunday best for lay folk, and much else are customary to help us make a physical place set aside on earth, which somewhat points us to be reminded of the mysteries we profess to believe. .     

3DOP

[OGHoosier]

I am in no way competent to remark on Catholic theology or the Mass, seeing as I'm a garden-variety Latter-day Saint. I will say, however, that I do find the Catholic liturgy to be beautiful and moving, even though I have my theological disagreements . 

And your churches are gorgeous beyond my capacity to describe. I was blessed to visit Rome a year or two ago and not just the Vatican and major basilicas but all the little churches tucked away in the nooks and crannies of the city...absolutely breathtaking. The devotion inherent in them elevated my eyes to heaven. 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Hi Miserere.

Thanks for putting up the two pictures. You did well in your choice for the Novus Ordo knowing you could have shown something "extraordinary". Ordinary is bad enough. You listed the three kinds of approach to the New Mass for Trad Catholics. 

I have held since I stopped attending the New Mass, that it has the essential form (words) of consecration to make a valid sacrament in a setting that is inappropriate to what you so vividly explained regarding the Holy Sacrifice in a post a few weeks ago. How easy it is to forget that we are really approaching Calvary as we arrive for Mass, present at Calvary during the Mass, and leaving Calvary as we return home. It is much worse with the new liturgy. But also after the Council, Catholics went wild with the destruction of church architecture and art that had adorned the churches for centuries. Protestants don't like the kind of altar that is in the first picture? Okay, neither do we Catholics. How about a curtain instead? Protestants don't kneel to receive their Lord's Supper on the tongue. Okay, let's rip out the altar rail and give the Body of Christ to people standing to receive the Host in their own hands. (For LDS: Customarily only ordained ministers handle the sacred species because their hands have been sanctified in ordinations for that very purpose. If it is necessary for lay people to even handle the chalice and other instruments used during Mass and Benediction, they used wear gloves or use a linen cloth so that their unsanctified hands do not touch even these instruments set aside for sacred usage. This helped the faithful to have greater reverence for the priesthood and our High Priest, our Lord Jesus Christ Himself in the Blessed Sacrament. All of this is gone from the New Mass where sometimes, inappropriately attired lay men and women put God into the hands of the faithful. It is no wonder to me at all that young people growing up in such a religious atmosphere would grow to question whether what appears to be a piece of bread is really God.)

It isn't always easy to believe what the Church teaches about the Mass. Catholics can lose their faith, and especially is this so when the Church herself acts almost as though there is nothing mysterious surrounding the proposed focal point of heaven and earth. The Novus Ordo makes it more difficult to believe that the purpose of Creation itself, is taking place when Christ becomes present on the altar. The Traditional Latin Mass itself is, we know, but a dim reflection of the true realities. We attempt in our smallness to make a church and a ceremony that is appropriate to help us meaningfully witness the most important event in world history, where eternity is transcending time itself. The Father loves His children's failures when we make our feeble attempts to present the mysterious realities which we profess to believe, in an earthly setting that is not easily made suitable to something infinitely sublime. This is why nothing profane and "ordinary" should be admitted. Silence, reverence, grand works of art, architecture made to raise one's eyes upwards, an heavenly tongue which is used only in the liturgy, ornate vestments on the clergy, Sunday best for lay folk, and much else are customary to help us make a physical place set aside on earth, which somewhat points us to be reminded of the mysteries we profess to believe. .     

3DOP

One of the most sacred moments of my life happened in a visit to St. Anthony's Seminary (Franciscan) in Santa Barbara- right next door to the SB mission dating to the 17 hundreds established by Junipero Serra.  The altar below is in the Seminary- not the mission.   But when the Eucharist is elevated by the priest, as is shown in your pics, the host is superimposed over that circular area, and then higher up is the crucifix, symbolizing of course Christ's sacrifice, if you are Catholic.  And notice that the crucifix itself is on a roughly circular area surrounded by various symbols sacred to Catholics, and the Father and Holy Ghost symbolized in the other smaller circles. 

The cross seems to grow out of the Tree of Life

So you have the  Garden, the sacrifice of the Mass re-capitulating the Savior's sacrifice, with the Father and Holy Ghost all in a symphony of circles representing eternity.

Wow!

I was praying about becoming a Catholic priest at the time, at the age of 13, and I think those prayers led to the first personal revelation of my life, so this I think was in 1962 or so. 

It is an incredibly beautiful altar piece.

I believe the seminary is now closed though, and the building has been sold to another Christian group.   But man, THAT altarpiece is a treasure!!  Blow it up and zoom in if you can- it is just one symbol on top of another- simply gorgeous!!

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by mfbukowski

[OGHoosier]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

One of the most sacred moments of my life happened in a visit to St. Anthony's Seminary (Franciscan) in Santa Barbara- right next door to the SB mission dating to the 17 hundreds established by Junipero Serra.  The altar below is in the Seminary- not the mission.   But when the Eucharist is elevated by the priest, as is shown in your pics, the host is superimposed over that circular area, and then higher up is the crucifix, symbolizing of course Christ's sacrifice, if you are Catholic.  And notice that the crucifix itself is on a roughly circular area surrounded by various symbols sacred to Catholics, and the Father and Holy Ghost symbolized in the other smaller circles. 

The cross seems to grow out of the Tree of Life

So you have the  Garden, the sacrifice of the Mass re-capitulating the Savior's sacrifice, with the Father and Holy Ghost all in a symphony of circles representing eternity.

Wow!

I was praying about becoming a Catholic priest at the time, at the age of 13, and I think those prayers led to the first personal revelation of my life, so this I think was in 1962 or so. 

It is an incredibly beautiful altar piece.

I believe the seminary is now closed though, and the building has been sold to another Christian group.   But man, THAT altarpiece is a treasure!!  Blow it up and zoom in if you can- it is just one symbol on top of another- simply gorgeous!!

 

The Catholics do religious artwork like no other, in my humble opinion, though to be fair I haven't gotten to see a lot of Eastern Orthodox artwork in person so my judgement is provisional. 

I hope that one day my own religious tradition can have such a vibrant artistic tradition but there is a 2000 year head start and some of the greatest artistic geniuses of all time to catch up to. 

[3DOP]

6 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

I am in no way competent to remark on Catholic theology or the Mass, seeing as I'm a garden-variety Latter-day Saint. I will say, however, that I do find the Catholic liturgy to be beautiful and moving, even though I have my theological disagreements . 

And your churches are gorgeous beyond my capacity to describe. I was blessed to visit Rome a year or two ago and not just the Vatican and major basilicas but all the little churches tucked away in the nooks and crannies of the city...absolutely breathtaking. The devotion inherent in them elevated my eyes to heaven. 

Hi Hoosier. Our last daughter was married in northern Italy (almost Switzerland) and honeymooned in Rome for the first week. Her and her husband graciously invited the four parents to join them for a week touring Rome before they continued elsewhere. I will always treasure that week in Rome. Thank you for noting the devotion that inspired such works as you saw. Whether what you saw is theologically true from your point of view, you apparently found it to be beautiful. I am very glad of that. Of all the churches I visited in Italy, my favorite was not in Rome. It was the Duomo of Milan, the Cathedral Church where St. Augustine was baptised by St. Ambrose.  Excavations revealed the old baptistery. The church itself left me feeling helpless to appreciate it properly. I understand your saying about "gorgeous beyond my capacity to describe".

My wife started a blog that I am proud of, trying to explain what we witnessed. It is inactive now. But if you are interested, a small part of our/her story is recorded in word and pictures here:

http://acoininthetrevi.blogspot.com/2016/

Edited August 30, 2020 by 3DOP

[Judd]

On 8/27/2020 at 8:34 AM, smac97 said:

From the Church's website (emphases added) :

I'm not sure your comment ("a new trend seems to be fewer temples have Moroni on top...") is correct.  A large majority of the temples have them, including all temples built subsequent to the Atlanta Georgia temple (until 2020, it seems).  Per the Church's website, here are the temples which have been dedicated subsequent to the Atlanta temple (and hence, per item #9 above, have Angel Moroni statues) :

1. Nuku'alofa Tonga Temple
2. Santiago Chile Temple
3. Papeete Tahiti Temple
4. Mexico City Mexico Temple
5. Boise Idaho Temple
6. Sydney Australia Temple
7. Manila Philippines Temple
8. Dallas Texas Temple
9. Taipei Taiwan Temple
10. Guatemala City Guatemala Temple
11. Freiberg Germany Temple
12. Stockholm Sweden Temple
13. Chicago Illinois Temple
14. Johannesburg South Africa Temple
15. Seoul Korea Temple
16. Lima Peru Temple
17. Buenos Aires Argentina Temple
18. Denver Colorado Temple
19. Frankfurt Germany Temple
20. Portland Oregon Temple
21. Las Vegas Nevada Temple
22. Toronto Ontario Temple
23. San Diego California Temple
24. Orlando Florida Temple
25. Bountiful Utah Temple
26. Mount Timpanogos Utah Temple
27. St. Louis Missouri Temple
28. Vernal Utah Temple
29. Preston England Temple
30. Monticello Utah Temple
31. Anchorage Alaska Temple
32. Colonia Juárez Chihuahua Mexico Temple
33. Madrid Spain Temple
34. Bogotá Colombia Temple
35. Guayaquil Ecuador Temple
36. Spokane Washington Temple
37. Bismarck North Dakota Temple
38. Columbia South Carolina Temple
39. Detroit Michigan Temple
40. Halifax Nova Scotia Temple
41. Regina Saskatchewan Temple
42. Billings Montana Temple
43. Edmonton Alberta Temple
44. Raleigh North Carolina Temple
45. St. Paul Minnesota Temple
46. Kona Hawaii Temple
47. Ciudad Juárez Mexico Temple
48. Hermosillo Sonora Mexico Temple
49. Albuquerque New Mexico Temple
50. Oaxaca Mexico Temple
51. Tuxtla Gutiérrez Mexico Temple
52. Louisville Kentucky Temple
53. Palmyra New York Temple
54. Fresno California Temple
55. Medford Oregon Temple
56. Memphis Tennessee Temple
57. Reno Nevada Temple
58. Cochabamba Bolivia Temple
59. Tampico Mexico Temple
60. Nashville Tennessee Temple
61. Villahermosa Mexico Temple
62. Montreal Quebec Temple
63. San José Costa Rica Temple
64. Fukuoka Japan Temple
65. Adelaide Australia Temple
66. Melbourne Australia Temple
67. Suva Fiji Temple
68. Mérida Mexico Temple
69. Veracruz Mexico Temple
70. Baton Rouge Louisiana Temple
71. Oklahoma City Oklahoma Temple
72. Caracas Venezuela Temple
73. Houston Texas Temple
74. Birmingham Alabama Temple
75. Santo Domingo Dominican Republic Temple
76. Boston Massachusetts Temple
77. Recife Brazil Temple
78. Porto Alegre Brazil Temple
79. Montevideo Uruguay Temple
80. Winter Quarters Nebraska Temple
81. Guadalajara Mexico Temple
82. Perth Australia Temple
83. Columbia River Washington Temple
84. Snowflake Arizona Temple
85. Lubbock Texas Temple
86. Monterrey Mexico Temple
87. Campinas Brazil Temple
88. Asunción Paraguay Temple
89. Nauvoo Illinois Temple
90. The Hague Netherlands Temple
91. Brisbane Australia Temple
92. Redlands California Temple
93. Accra Ghana Temple
94. Copenhagen Denmark Temple
95. Manhattan New York Temple
96. San Antonio Texas Temple
97. Aba Nigeria Temple
98. Newport Beach California Temple
99. Sacramento California Temple
100. Helsinki Finland Temple
101. Rexburg Idaho Temple
102. Curitiba Brazil Temple
103. Panama City Panama Temple
104. Twin Falls Idaho Temple
105. Draper Utah Temple
106. Oquirrh Mountain Utah Temple
107. Vancouver British Columbia Temple
108. The Gila Valley Arizona Temple
109. Cebu City Philippines Temple
110. Kyiv Ukraine Temple
111. San Salvador El Salvador Temple
112. Quetzaltenango Guatemala Temple
113. Kansas City Missouri Temple
114. Manaus Brazil Temple
115. Brigham City Utah Temple
116. Calgary Alberta Temple
117. Tegucigalpa Honduras Temple
118. Gilbert Arizona Temple
119. Fort Lauderdale Florida Temple
120. Phoenix Arizona Temple
121. Córdoba Argentina Temple
122. Payson Utah Temple
123. Trujillo Peru Temple
124. Indianapolis Indiana Temple
125. Tijuana Mexico Temple
126. Provo City Center Temple
127. Sapporo Japan Temple
128. Philadelphia Pennsylvania Temple
129. Fort Collins Colorado Temple
130. Star Valley Wyoming Temple
131. Hartford Connecticut Temple
132. Paris France Temple
133. Tucson Arizona Temple
134. Meridian Idaho Temple
135. Cedar City Utah Temple
136. Concepción Chile Temple
137. Barranquilla Colombia Temple
138. Rome Italy Temple
139. Kinshasa Democratic Republic of the Congo Temple
140. Fortaleza Brazil Temple
141. Port-Au-Prince Haiti Temple
142. Lisbon Portugal Temple
143. Arequipa Peru Temple
144. Durban South Africa Temple

Here are the temples currently under construction or renovation (same link as above) :

1. Columbus Ohio Temple
2. Hamilton New Zealand Temple (never had an Angel Moroni, under renovation)
3. Hong Kong China Temple (per item #3 above, its Angel Moroni is being permanently removed as part of renovations).
4. Mesa Arizona Temple (never had an Angel Moroni, under renovation)
5. Salt Lake Temple
6. St. George Utah Temple (never had an Angel Moroni, under renovation)
7. Tokyo Japan Temple
8. Washington D.C. Temple
9. Abidjan Ivory Coast Temple
10. Alabang Philippines Temple
11. Auckland New Zealand Temple (never had an Angel Moroni, under renovation)
12. Bangkok Thailand Temple
13. Belém Brazil Temple
14. Feather River California Temple
15. Layton Utah Temple
16. Lima Peru Los Olivos Temple (will not have an Angel Moroni)
17. Pocatello Idaho Temple
18. Praia Cape Verde Temple (will not have an Angel Moroni)
19. Puebla Mexico Temple
20. Quito Ecuador Temple
21. Richmond Virginia Temple
22. Rio de Janeiro Brazil Temple
23. San Juan Puerto Rico Temple (will not have an Angel Moroni)
24. Saratoga Springs Utah Temple
25. Urdaneta Philippines Temple
26. Winnipeg Manitoba Temple
27. Yigo Guam Temple (will not have an Angel Moroni)

In other words, of these 27 temples, only nine will lack the Angel Moroni.  And of those nine, only four are new (the other five being under renovation).

Let's take a look at the four "under construction temples" that will not have an Angel Moroni:

First, the Lima Peru Los Olivos Temple:

A spire-with-Moroni-on-top doesn't fit the architecture, like the Mesa and Lai'e temples:

So the omission of Moroni is not really surprising here.

Second, the Praia Cabo Verde Temple:

Third, the San Juan Puerto Rico Temple:

Fourth and finally, the Yigo Guam Temple:

These last three seem to be based on the same design, which does not incorporate a spire-with-Moroni-on-top feature.

So of the 171 temples listed above,

A) the vast majority include the Angel Moroni,

B) most of those which do not include a Moroni statue have been around for a long time, and as such are not indicative of a "trend" toward omitting Moroni;

C) of the temples that were constructed without an Angel Moroni statue, eight have the statue added in later years, and only one has had the statue removed (Hong Kong); 

D) of the "under construction" temples, a substantial majority of them have the Angel Moroni; and

E) of the few "under construction" temples that do not have the statue (all four of them), the omission seems more for aestetic/architectural reasons than anything else.

Four out of 171 temples does not seem to be much of a "trend."

-Smac

You’ve missed all of the temples with artistic renditions but not yet under constructions. That’s where the real “trend” is. A few I see:

1. Taylorsville
2. Tooele  
3. Orem 

4. Pago Pago

5. Neiafu, Tonga

6. Brasilia, Brazil

7. San Pedro Sula, Honduras

8. McAllen, Texas

9. Bentonville, Arkansas

10. Alabang, Philippines

11. Auckland, New Zealand

12. Moses Lake, Washington

13. Cambodia

14. Bengaluru, India

15. Coban, Guatemala

16. Okinawa

17. Mendoza, Argentina

I haven’t read the whole context of the thread, but Moroni-less temples does certainly seem to be a trend. There are still some being designed, but it’s definitely a shake up. I think a big part of this is that culturally we’ve so much synonymized many things with worship and the idea that Moroni needs to be on the temple may be one of them. It’s neither good nor bad, but I think the idea is having more diversity in this helps reinforce the actual components of a temple that are eternal, and not being lost so much on the mechanics or rigidity. Moroni certainly is atop many temples because it’s been our culture (that’s not necessarily a bad thing, just is what it is, and it symbolizes other gospel truths), but with the original person who suggested the temple be topped with Moroni not even being a member, I’ve felt it’d be more relevant and meaningful if it were Elijah topping temples. Anyway, none of this really matters, though. I believe the idea is to move more in a direction where our focus doesn’t have any distractions. Not suggesting Moroni does that, or that there aren’t many Christ-centered reasons that justify Moroni’s placement, but a reminder to step back for context and realizing Moroni isn’t a necessity, and that there are many different symbols and images that can point us to Christ.

Edited August 30, 2020 by Judd

[Judd]

Anyway, we’re so used to viewing the worlds as so different that we often forget that Moroni was a contemporary of the early Catholic Church. Had his “wandering whithersoever I can” encompassed instead crossing the seas and delivering the plates to Ancient Rome, the Christian world would currently have a much different canon.  

Edited August 30, 2020 by Judd

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Hi Hoosier. Our last daughter was married in northern Italy (almost Switzerland) and honeymooned in Rome for the first week. Her and her husband graciously invited the four parents to join them for a week touring Rome before they continued elsewhere. I will always treasure that week in Rome. Thank you for noting the devotion that inspired such works as you saw. Whether what you saw is theologically true from your point of view, you apparently found it to be beautiful. I am very glad of that. Of all the churches I visited in Italy, my favorite was not in Rome. It was the Duomo of Milan, the Cathedral Church where St. Augustine was baptised by St. Ambrose.  Excavations revealed the old baptistery. The church itself left me feeling helpless to appreciate it properly. I understand your saying about "gorgeous beyond my capacity to describe".

My wife started a blog that I am proud of, trying to explain what we witnessed. It is inactive now. But if you are interested, a small part of our/her story is recorded in word and pictures here:

http://acoininthetrevi.blogspot.com/2016/

You are a blessed man to have found such an intelligent and spiritual woman to be your sweetheart!

[3DOP]

10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You are a blessed man to have found such an intelligent and spiritual woman to be your sweetheart!

Indeed Mark. Thanks.

[OGHoosier]

On 8/30/2020 at 12:19 AM, Judd said:

Anyway, we’re so used to viewing the worlds as so different that we often forget that Moroni was a contemporary of the early Catholic Church. Had his “wandering whithersoever I can” encompassed instead crossing the seas and delivering the plates to Ancient Rome, the Christian world would currently have a much different canon.  

I've actually thought that Mormon and Moroni, through their close association with the Three Nephites, were exposed to some of the works of the first three Christian centuries. Jesus' original Twelve Apostles rank above the Nephite disciples, I believe, since they were given the sealing power and iirc the same is not recorded for the Nephite disciples, who are not named as apostles (though that could just be a translation thing.) Also, the Twelve Apostles are told that they will judge all the House of Israel, and the Nephite disciples are told they will be judged by the Twelve. Given the fact that Christ Himself gives the Nephites the prophecies of Malachi, it seems to me likely that He would provide for his Nephite disciples to have access to the words and teachings of Peter, Paul, and the great saints of the early Church. So, rather than the plates being delivered to Ancient Rome, ancient Rome was delivered to the plates. 

[Judd]

Another Moroni-less temple rendition released today for Davao Philippines Temple:

[Damien the Leper]

On 8/27/2020 at 4:02 PM, mfbukowski said:

He's right!

It was a MISSAL for Pete's sake and not a "hymnbook".  Big difference.

Imagine if in our temple liturgy we sang some songs and prayed some prayers that were specific to the season/date.   Like maybe on the 4th of July there were patriotic hymns etc- used in the main liturgical symbols of the church.  Or suppose there were special covenants etc made around Easter time, or something like that.

Now suppose the equivalent mistake was made- say a crucifix on a book to be used in our temple, containing all the prayers etc to getting us through the (now) seasonably variable endowment.

There's just a little problem with that, I think.... 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missal

Folks here don't understand how we are seen by other alleged "Christians".   To a lot of Catholics we are seen as the Devil's church.   That's ok we have been taught that about them too!

 

Mr. McConkie is likely enjoying purgatory as we speak. Good on him. We all need a bit of cleansing.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

Mr. McConkie is likely enjoying purgatory as we speak. Good on him. We all need a bit of cleansing.

What does Elder McConkie have to do with this?

And who are you to judge him?  I may disagree with some of his theology, but he was a great man of God guilty of the horrible crime of being an imperfect human who made mistakes.

He that is without errors, let him cast the first stone.