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Catholic Publisher Accidentally Uses Angel Moroni on Hymnal Cover


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7 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

It is my understanding that the person who designed the furnishings and fixtures for the Cardston temple had studied with Frank Lloyd Wright. I have a book on the works of FLW and there are many similarities . 

Interesting.  Makes me wonder if temples are decorated with themes according to where they are, like beach themes for temples near an ocean... maybe with more blue/ocean and sand colors... and mountain themes for temples in mountains... like more green/tree and brown/bark colors.  I haven't been inside any temple other than the one near where I live and it has a lot of white marble and cherry/wood color trim, near Portland Oregon.  From what I know of Frank Lloyd Wright I would expect temples influenced by him and his style to feel like it belonged on a prairie.

Frank Lloyd Wright first became known for his Prairie Style of architecture which incorporated low pitched roofs, overhanging eaves, a central chimney, and open floor plans which, he believed was the antidote to the confined, closed-in architecture

 

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7 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Interesting.  Makes me wonder if temples are decorated with themes according to where they are, like beach themes for temples near an ocean... maybe with more blue/ocean and sand colors... and mountain themes for temples in mountains... like more green/tree and brown/bark colors.  I haven't been inside any temple other than the one near where I live and it has a lot of white marble and cherry/wood color trim, near Portland Oregon.  From what I know of Frank Lloyd Wright I would expect temples influenced by him and his style to feel like it belonged on a prairie.

Frank Lloyd Wright first became known for his Prairie Style of architecture which incorporated low pitched roofs, overhanging eaves, a central chimney, and open floor plans which, he believed was the antidote to the confined, closed-in architecture

 

I’ve been inside a number of temples in connection with open houses and dedications. It is very common to draw inspiration from the temple’s locale for decorative motifs and art work if not for architectural features. 

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4 hours ago, Amulek said:

But being ignorant of the meaning doesn't actually change the meaning, does it?

Depends on which meaning one is talking about, the meaning the painting has for the artist, the meaning the artist wants others to experience (which may or may not be specific as in he wants them to feel a certain way or he is open to the idea he is simply providing a trigger for an experience and he doesn’t care what direction it takes or some sort of mix of the two), or the meaning others experience. 

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13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ve been inside a number of temples in connection with open houses and dedications. It is very common to draw inspiration from the temple’s locale for decorative motifs and art work if not for architectural features. 

I don’t believe the original Provo temple uses the locale for inspiration, but the Provo Central and Payson do very much, imo.  I have only been in the Oakland once to get married, but my memory is that the inside was similar to Provo’s.  
 

I found a Church YouTube of a particular temple and I am assuming there are likely others, so if one is interested to see if a particular temple uses a local motif (I have got the impression they do this consistently for the more recent temples, but maybe it is simply what temples I have been in), there is possibly  a detailed viewing available.
 

 

Edited by Calm
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1 minute ago, Calm said:

I don’t believe the original Provo temple uses the locale for inspiration, but the Provo Central and Payson do very much, imo.  I have only been in the Oakland once to get married, but my memory is that the inside was similar to Provo’s.  

In the Billings Montana Temple the carpets in the sealing rooms have the state flower cut into them.  It's kind of neat.

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5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

In the Billings Montana Temple the carpets in the sealing rooms have the state flower cut into them.  It's kind of neat.

That would be a very easy way to adapt a temple to be more locale specific when renovating. 

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15 hours ago, Calm said:

I don’t believe the original Provo temple uses the locale for inspiration, but the Provo Central and Payson do very much, imo.  I have only been in the Oakland once to get married, but my memory is that the inside was similar to Provo’s.  

Bear in mind that the Provo and (original) Ogden temples were constructed at the same time after there had been a cessation of temple building in the Church for a number of years. They were identical in appearance and, by today’s standards, were somewhat utilitarian. Initially, they didn’t even have angel Moroni statues. A lot has happened in temple building since then. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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On 8/26/2020 at 11:22 AM, smac97 said:

"This is not compatible with Catholicism in any way and is highly inappropriate for a Catholic publisher to place in Catholic parishes," Sticha tweeted.

He's right!

It was a MISSAL for Pete's sake and not a "hymnbook".  Big difference.

Imagine if in our temple liturgy we sang some songs and prayed some prayers that were specific to the season/date.   Like maybe on the 4th of July there were patriotic hymns etc- used in the main liturgical symbols of the church.  Or suppose there were special covenants etc made around Easter time, or something like that.

Now suppose the equivalent mistake was made- say a crucifix on a book to be used in our temple, containing all the prayers etc to getting us through the (now) seasonably variable endowment.

There's just a little problem with that, I think....  ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missal

Quote

A missal is a liturgical book containing all instructions and texts necessary for the celebration of Mass throughout the year.

Folks here don't understand how we are seen by other alleged "Christians".   To a lot of Catholics we are seen as the Devil's church.   That's ok we have been taught that about them too!

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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15 hours ago, bluebell said:

In the Billings Montana Temple the carpets in the sealing rooms have the state flower cut into them.  It's kind of neat.

That’s what I mean by decorative motifs. I’ve seen that sort of thing in other temples: in the carpets, furniture, fixtures, art-glass windows, paintings and murals, etc.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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23 hours ago, bluebell said:

I get why Catholics aren't excited about this and want it changed, but the quote--

"This is not compatible with Catholicism in any way and is highly inappropriate for a Catholic publisher to place in Catholic parishes," Sticha tweeted.

Seems a lot overly dramatic.  It's an angel on a ball with a trumpet.  If Catholics believe in the book of Revelation then this picture is not not compatible with Catholicism in any way, even though it makes sense that they wouldn't want a "mormon" image on their hymnbooks.

See my post above

A crucifix in the temple to be used for the endowment ceremonies??  ;)

 

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24 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don’t believe the original Provo temple uses the locale for inspiration, but the Provo Central and Payson do very much, imo.  I have only been in the Oakland once to get married, but my memory is that the inside was similar to Provo’s.  
 

I found a Church YouTube of a particular temple and I am assuming there are likely others, so if one is interested to see if a particular temple uses a local motif (I have got the impression they do this consistently for the more recent temples, but maybe it is simply what temples I have been in), there is possibly  a detailed viewing available.
 

 

I covered the dedication of that temple and even interviewed President Uchtdorf one-on-one inside the temple foyer the day before the dedication. 
 

Coincidentally, I’ve had the Tucson temple — among others — in the back of my mind as I’ve been writing these last two or three posts. I was going to cite it as an example of a temple with architectural features inspired by the locale. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

See my post above

A crucifix in the temple to be used for the endowment ceremonies??  ;)

 

I can think of at least 2 instances in the Endowment ceremony where it would help to illustrate how Jesus was hung to die on a cross.  Or do you think I am being a jerk to point this out to you?

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On 8/26/2020 at 3:56 PM, smac97 said:

(I am curious if the artist being a former Catholic is part of the problem).

If an ex-Mormon put a crucifix on a document to be used in one of our most sacred moments would that be a problem?

Yeah I think so!  Like maybe a book to be used as sacrament meeting hymns and seasonally adjusted parts of a sacrament meeting schedule for sacrament meetings and talks now recommended for the whole church?  

Imagine a "come follow me" manual that included sacrament talks and hymns for meetings now that we cannot meet together....  with a crucifix on the cover.

And the ex-mo did it and now is a Catholic?

Edited by mfbukowski
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23 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Exactly what kind of music do they publish; my curiosity has been piqued?  

Our hymnal has changed a bit since I was a boy. I miss many of the hymns no longer found in our hymnals and many of the ones that are there I would rather that I never heard them again. We each have our preferences. 

It's NOT a hymnal- that is not the problem

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4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

If an ex-Mormon put a crucifix on a document to be used in one of our most sacred moments would that be a problem?

Yeah I think so!  Like maybe a book to be used as sacrament meeting hymns and seasonally adjusted parts of a sacrament meeting schedule for sacrament meetings and talks now recommended for the whole church?  

Imagine a "come follow me" manual that included sacrament talks and hymns for meetings now that we cannot meet together....  with a crucifix on the cover.

And the ex-mo did it and now is a Catholic?

But an ex-catholic didn’t put the image on the book. A practicing catholic did it. 

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35 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Bear in mind that the Provo and (original) Ogden temples were constructed at the same time after there had been a cessation of temple building in the Church for a number of years. By today’s standards, they seem somewhat utilitarian. Initially, they didn’t even have angel Moroni statues. A lot has happened in temple building since then. 

Yep, I was thinking about that.  My grandmother’s house was about a mile or two from Provo, it was nice looking out the guest bedroom window to see it shining at night or walking by it when I went to visit her when I was a car/bike less BYU student.  I still have dreams about that.  I am very fond of Provo even if I prefer the wood decoration schemes to the gold (favorite temple is Cardston).

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3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

When I first discovered the Book of Mormon I was so naive that I thought entire congregations would be converted and baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints as their preachers, priests and members discovered the Book of Mormon.

So think we all!

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2 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Hmmm. Storm Rider...Hi.

Everybody Catholic or not. Hi. Hunch. Hunches. Of course, I think my hunches are probable. Don't mistake any hunch about you, whoever you are, as a dogmatic expression of my convictions about you. All anyone who disagrees with any of 3DOP's hunches needs to do is to tell him that he is out to lunch about his hunch in regards to yourself. 3DOP will then acknowledge that you are right about you, and he was wrong about you. 

-----------------

To Storm Rider's question: 

I have been away from a Mass that would use their stuff for years now. I found, from a Catholic perspective that the music supplied in the 90's by Oregon Catholic Publishing was shallow, sappy, and human-centered, like the Novus Ordo Mass. But it goes with the Novus Ordo. It is in my opinion, only appropriate for a watered down Catholic liturgy that is similarly shallow, sappy, and human centered. I mean no disrespect in saying that I have a hunch that LDS would be more at home with what I consider shallow, sappy, and human-centered music, than the four Catholics who participate here (I include Spammer who is Orthodox).

I do not intend to speak for my fellow LDS or Catholics here. But I also have a hunch that LDS would also be "more at home" with the Novus Ordo Mass than the liturgies that I suspect the four of us Catholics here (Spammer is Orthodox I know, but that is Catholic for sake of this discussion) would prefer. The Novus Ordo is a break with a liturgical tradition that had very warily allowed developmental changes for over 2,000 years. This would be because Catholics have always held that the various rites of the Church have direct links to how the Apostles taught their disciples how to pray the sacred liturgy. Naturally there is great veneration and regard for the ancient liturgies. The Novus Ordo on the other hand was designed by one main author and several Protestant consultants who offered input and were ultimately satisfied with the results. This is not controversial. The Novus Ordo is a made up liturgy designed to appeal more to non-Catholics. It is also the reason why Benedict XVI, when he was Cardinal Ratzinger referred to the New Mass as a "banal, on-the-spot product". Note that this was from a man who was and remains convinced that the Novus Ordo is good and necessary. He probably sees ecumenical value to it, but he is also honest enough to point out that this kind of liturgy is unique in that it is a product that was manufactured for a purpose. That purpose resulted in a strategy to tone down the "high church" Gregorian chant, pipe organs, signs of the cross, mea culpas, genuflections, and incense, etc., while de-emphasizing Catholic truths that are particularly unpopular with non-Catholics. Supposedly, this would draw Protestants. The fruit of the strategy is not good. Pray and sing like a Protestant long enough, and you start believing like a Protestant.  The Novus Ordo can't make Protestants want to be Catholic because it is inauthentic Catholicism. Ironically, the Novus Ordo doesn't make Catholics want to be Catholic either. Catholics are leaving the Church and if non-Catholics feel more at home when they visit, they don't stay.  

THIS is why I think it would be natural if LDS liked OCP Music and the Novus Ordo more than my Catholic fellows here or I would. Both are made not for us as Catholics, but for you as non-Catholics. That is the basis of my hunch/hunches.

Thanks for your consideration,

Rory 

I kind of like Ratzinger.  At least he is a real theologian- don't agree with a lot he says but he speaks the language I understand and makes the points he should for his point of view.

I think Leper is also orthodox.

Edited by mfbukowski
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15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But an ex-catholic didn’t put the image on the book. A practicing catholic did it. 

uh, ok.

I wasn't talking about that- it was an ANALOGY.  The ex-Catholic made the painting and the uninformed Catholic publisher put it on the book.   It would be like an ex-mo drawing a stylized crucifix which got picked by a naive Mormon - yes I am using that word for a reason as well- as a "nice picture" without any idea of what the image was about.

The analogy was to illustrate the FEELINGS that such an error might provoke in an LDS environment, not to give the details of "what really happened".

I apologize for the technical error.

Edited by mfbukowski
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3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

When I first discovered the Book of Mormon I was so naive that I thought entire congregations would be converted and baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints as their preachers, priests and members discovered the Book of Mormon.

That sums up pretty well how naive I was too.  I had never heard anything about the Book of Mormon until I was about 28 years old, living in Kingman Arizona where I had moved to from Texas.  And since I had never heard about it, including hearing nothing about it from my Grandmother who had lived a long life as the wife of a preacher, I told her about what I had found out and Lo and behold she had already heard about it even though she never told me about it.  And as she talked about how her husband, my Granddad, had had debates with elders and how "he won" I just wondered why they didn't see the truth and marvel of it as I had seen.  And then I found out that my Dad, also a preacher, had heard about it even though he never told me about it.  And on and on it went, while I marveled at how I could see what they did not see while they thought that I, meaning me, had somehow been hoodwinked or brainwashed or some other such thing, instead of realizing they simply did not see the truth in it that I did.  And they still think of me as the black sheep of the family. It would be kind of funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

Edited by Ahab
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38 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Folks here don't understand how we are seen by other alleged "Christians". 

I think most of us do, at the very least those who have been around long enough to be exposed to posters who called us nonChristians or said our doctrine is blasphemy, even a few being intentionally offensive when doing so. Even if the view isn’t that common anymore from our current board’s posters and criticism/disagreement is very civil so we might even miss actual significant disagreement over disbelief if we aren’t paying attention, we have plenty of links to views of actual nonLDS Christians who see us that way.

Some posters in the past seem to assume if Saints don’t have an issue with the practice of other faiths (for example, if they are required to be baptized because our baptism is viewed as invalid) nonmembers should feel the same way, but that is different than not being aware of how we are seen. 

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

Depends on which meaning one is talking about, the meaning the painting has for the artist, the meaning the artist wants others to experience (which may or may not be specific as in he wants them to feel a certain way or he is open to the idea he is simply providing a trigger for an experience and he doesn’t care what direction it takes or some sort of mix of the two), or the meaning others experience. 

How about the commonly understood meaning. If the publisher had chosen a picture of a swastika, or a confederate flag, or some other commonly recognized symbol we would all understand what the picture was about - even if some small portion of the population happen to be ignorant of the commonly understood meaning. 

 

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16 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Hmmm. Storm Rider...Hi.

Everybody Catholic or not. Hi. Hunch. Hunches. Of course, I think my hunches are probable. Don't mistake any hunch about you, whoever you are, as a dogmatic expression of my convictions about you. All anyone who disagrees with any of 3DOP's hunches needs to do is to tell him that he is out to lunch about his hunch in regards to yourself. 3DOP will then acknowledge that you are right about you, and he was wrong about you. 

-----------------

To Storm Rider's question: 

I have been away from a Mass that would use their stuff for years now. I found, from a Catholic perspective that the music supplied in the 90's by Oregon Catholic Publishing was shallow, sappy, and human-centered, like the Novus Ordo Mass. But it goes with the Novus Ordo. It is in my opinion, only appropriate for a watered down Catholic liturgy that is similarly shallow, sappy, and human centered. I mean no disrespect in saying that I have a hunch that LDS would be more at home with what I consider shallow, sappy, and human-centered music, than the four Catholics who participate here (I include Spammer who is Orthodox).

I do not intend to speak for my fellow LDS or Catholics here. But I also have a hunch that LDS would also be "more at home" with the Novus Ordo Mass than the liturgies that I suspect the four of us Catholics here (Spammer is Orthodox I know, but that is Catholic for sake of this discussion) would prefer. The Novus Ordo is a break with a liturgical tradition that had very warily allowed developmental changes for over 2,000 years. This would be because Catholics have always held that the various rites of the Church have direct links to how the Apostles taught their disciples how to pray the sacred liturgy. Naturally there is great veneration and regard for the ancient liturgies. The Novus Ordo on the other hand was designed by one main author and several Protestant consultants who offered input and were ultimately satisfied with the results. This is not controversial. The Novus Ordo is a made up liturgy designed to appeal more to non-Catholics. It is also the reason why Benedict XVI, when he was Cardinal Ratzinger referred to the New Mass as a "banal, on-the-spot product". Note that this was from a man who was and remains convinced that the Novus Ordo is good and necessary. He probably sees ecumenical value to it, but he is also honest enough to point out that this kind of liturgy is unique in that it is a product that was manufactured for a purpose. That purpose resulted in a strategy to tone down the "high church" Gregorian chant, pipe organs, signs of the cross, mea culpas, genuflections, and incense, etc., while de-emphasizing Catholic truths that are particularly unpopular with non-Catholics. Supposedly, this would draw Protestants. The fruit of the strategy is not good. Pray and sing like a Protestant long enough, and you start believing like a Protestant.  The Novus Ordo can't make Protestants want to be Catholic because it is inauthentic Catholicism. Ironically, the Novus Ordo doesn't make Catholics want to be Catholic either. Catholics are leaving the Church and if non-Catholics feel more at home when they visit, they don't stay.  

THIS is why I think it would be natural if LDS liked OCP Music and the Novus Ordo more than my Catholic fellows here or I would. Both are made not for us as Catholics, but for you as non-Catholics. That is the basis of my hunch/hunches.

Thanks for your consideration,

Rory 

I think you are probably correct on the High Church thing. I have a deep appreciation for many things Catholic, but the masses that I have attended are challenging for me to appreciate. And they were all Novus Ordo. My upbringing as a LDS has conditioned me to appreciate a more casual approach to how a Sacrament meeting is held; the process is simple, with participation from several members. 

On the other hand, I really enjoy Adoration. I enjoy the reverence and love I have seen and felt. 

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I don't think it's unreasonable for Catholics to be upset about the picture. It's a symbol from another religion placed on our liturgical books. It's not anti-mormon to be upset about it. I'd be upset about any non-Catholic symbol being used on a liturgical book.

I'm going to add, too, that if it were just an angel (not Moroni), I still wouldn't want it on the books. It doesn't feel Catholic at all. As 3DOP pointed out, it's indicative of the problems with the new Mass -- there's a subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) rejection of the great history and tradition of Catholic liturgy and overall ethos. Gregorian chant? replace it with sappy folk-style music. Elaborate symbolic vestments? nope, just toss a white robe on the priest. Stations of the cross in the Catholic artistic style? nah, we'll put up some felt posters instead. And these are just surface aesthetic issues. There are deeper problems. As 3DOP aptly said, if you pray and worship like a protestant, you'll start to think and believe like a protestant.

So, I hope the publisher replaced the angel Moroni with some actual Catholic art.

I do think it's interesting that the regular Catholic posters on the board are traditional Catholics. Who would have thought it.

You know, there's a kinda subtle dig at Moroni in the Salt Lake City cathedral. This is painted on the wall:

salt-lake-city-utah-usa-31082017-a-quote

:) 

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37 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I don't think it's unreasonable for Catholics to be upset about the picture. It's a symbol from another religion placed on our liturgical books. It's not anti-mormon to be upset about it. I'd be upset about any non-Catholic symbol being used on a liturgical book.

I'm going to add, too, that if it were just an angel (not Moroni), I still wouldn't want it on the books. It doesn't feel Catholic at all. As 3DOP pointed out, it's indicative of the problems with the new Mass -- there's a subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) rejection of the great history and tradition of Catholic liturgy and overall ethos. Gregorian chant? replace it with sappy folk-style music. Elaborate symbolic vestments? nope, just toss a white robe on the priest. Stations of the cross in the Catholic artistic style? nah, we'll put up some felt posters instead. And these are just surface aesthetic issues. There are deeper problems. As 3DOP aptly said, if you pray and worship like a protestant, you'll start to think and believe like a protestant.

So, I hope the publisher replaced the angel Moroni with some actual Catholic art.

I do think it's interesting that the regular Catholic posters on the board are traditional Catholics. Who would have thought it.

You know, there's a kinda subtle dig at Moroni in the Salt Lake City cathedral. This is painted on the wall:

salt-lake-city-utah-usa-31082017-a-quote

:) 

Of course, the qualifier “besides that we have preached to you” is key. If the angel is preaching the pure gospel under commission from Jesus Christ, he’s OK. 

In fact, John the Revelator beheld that very thing in his vision:

 

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 

(Revelation 14:6)

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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