Sacrament at Home Church

[Rain]

4 hours ago, Amulek said:

Only that's not how requirements work. It's either a requirement which must be followed or it isn't really a requirement.  

If having the presiding authority take the sacrament first is genuinely a requirement, then the presiding authority has an obligation to make sure that happens, regardless of whether or not it might 'cause a stir.' 

A bishop might not want to cause embarrassment by having the new priest repeat the sacrament prayer for the 8th time, but since word-perfect recitation is a requirement, that is what the bishop is obligated to do.

I agree that passing the sacrament to the presiding authority is what we ought to do, but failure to do so has absolutely zero impact on the efficacy of the ordinance.  

 

"The bishop makes sure the sacrament prayers are spoken clearly, accurately, and with dignity. If someone makes an error in the wording and corrects himself, no further correction is needed. If the person does not correct his error, the bishop kindly asks him to repeat the prayer. The bishop uses discretion when asking for the prayer to be repeated. He ensures that doing so does not cause undue embarrassment or detract from the ordinance. Another person at the sacrament table can help as needed."

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/18-priesthood-ordinances-and-blessings?lang=eng

 

This gives me the impression that word perfect is not a requirement.  That in most cases the bishop should ask for repetition, but there may be times when word perfect is not required.

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, 2BizE said:

I think those presiding officer takes the sacrament first thing is simply a made up power/virtue signal....

As is your post so at least there is symmetry.

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

As is your post so at least there is symmetry.

I disagree. But I have no power so I’ll add “FWIW”.

[bluebell]

13 hours ago, Rain said:

"The bishop makes sure the sacrament prayers are spoken clearly, accurately, and with dignity. If someone makes an error in the wording and corrects himself, no further correction is needed. If the person does not correct his error, the bishop kindly asks him to repeat the prayer. The bishop uses discretion when asking for the prayer to be repeated. He ensures that doing so does not cause undue embarrassment or detract from the ordinance. Another person at the sacrament table can help as needed."

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/18-priesthood-ordinances-and-blessings?lang=eng

 

This gives me the impression that word perfect is not a requirement.  That in most cases the bishop should ask for repetition, but there may be times when word perfect is not required.

I get the same impression.

[bluebell]

18 hours ago, 2BizE said:

I think those presiding officer takes the sacrament first thing is simply a made up power/virtue signal....

What virtue is being signaled? 

[Ahab]

19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I would recommend using bread if possible. While substitutions are allowed "in extremis" bread has symbolic representations to make it particularly appropriate in representing the body of Christ. 

You would, would you.  Crackers are fine.  But I am glad you felt free to share your personal opinion with me.

By the way, I thought about using Matzo crackers, which was and still is used by the church I formerly attended before joining this church, but we don't normally use those and had Wheat Thins in stock in our pantry.  If we run out I may start using Triscuits, which we also usually have in stock.  

[HappyJackWagon]

46 minutes ago, bluebell said:

What virtue is being signaled? 

Taking the sacrament can signal to others that a person is righteous...or at least worthy  

It's probably more likely that people would view someone NOT taking the sacrament as a signal of non-virtue.

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Taking the sacrament can signal to others that a person is righteous...or at least worthy  

It's probably more likely that people would view someone NOT taking the sacrament as a signal of non-virtue.

Would you take a person signaling his or her self to be righteous as a signal of self-rightousness?  I know of some people who have and would.

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Taking the sacrament can signal to others that a person is righteous...or at least worthy  

It's probably more likely that people would view someone NOT taking the sacrament as a signal of non-virtue.

That's true, but I'm asking what virtue the bishop specifically would be signalling by taking the sacrament first.

[mfbukowski]

11 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That's true, but I'm asking what virtue the bishop specifically would be signalling by taking the sacrament first.

I always thought it was weird that the Bishop got the sacrament first.

I would think that the "servant of all" should receive it last.

At home, I always go last and it never even occurred to me to go first as the one "presiding"

Edited August 6, 2020 by mfbukowski

[Ahab]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That's true, but I'm asking what virtue the bishop specifically would be signalling by taking the sacrament first.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virtue

Definition of virtue

1a: conformity to a standard of right : MORALITY  b: a particular moral excellence

Our Lord took the sacrament emblems first and the bishop should take of the sacrament emblems first only when there isn't anyone in attendance who has more keys of the kingdom than he does.  The one who presides because he has more of the keys of the kingdom of God is the person who better represents our Lord and our Lord's authority more than all of the others in attendance.

2: a beneficial quality or power of a thing

3: manly strength or courage : VALOR

4: a commendable quality or trait : MERIT

5: a capacity to act : POTENCY

6: chastity especially in a woman

7 virtues plural : an order of angels— see CELESTIAL HIERARCHY

by virtue of or in virtue of

: through the force of : by authority of

Edited August 6, 2020 by Ahab

[mfbukowski]

On 8/4/2020 at 7:31 PM, nuclearfuels said:

Wondering if the person presiding at church at Home - in your case - takes the Sacrament first, similar to the way the Bishop takes the Sacrament first at regular church.

If the person requesting the blessing on the Sacrament partakes first because they are presiding or the head of the household (but not a Bishop, temporary calling) but a father (eternal calling), that seems kind of odd but likely the correct way to administer that ordinance, no?

The fact that it seems odd says a lot.

 

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

The fact that it seems odd says a lot.

 

Husbands and wives are equals in their own home, so it is odd in that case.  And yet my wife feels more comfortable with the idea of me presiding, somehow, in our home, even when I know she knows we are equals.  Which is still odd. 

It is all a very odd thing.

[Bernard Gui]

19 hours ago, Amulek said:

Only he wasn't speaking as president of the church. He didn't become president for an other five years. 

 

He was a member of the First Presidency and may have been the next senior apostle. Subsequent prophets have affirmed this and placed it in the Handbook of Instructions.

[bluebell]

27 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I always thought it was weird that the Bishop got the sacrament first.

I would think that the "servant of all" should receive it last.

At home, I always go last and it never even occurred to me to go first as the one "presiding"

I don't see that it really matters either way.

[Bernard Gui]

24 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I always thought it was weird that the Bishop got the sacrament first.

I would think that the "servant of all" should receive it last.

At home, I always go last and it never even occurred to me to go first as the one "presiding"

At first I felt uncomfortable as a bishop receiving it first, but that is only because I am probably the most humble person you will ever meet. In fact, I'm so humble that realizing the  depth of my humility fills me with pride.

That said, on reflection I eventually realized it was not me that was being honored, but the office I held. That was the original intent expressed by President McKay, and I think it remains so today. In that light, it is humbling to be given the sacrament first.  

[Bernard Gui]

53 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Taking the sacrament can signal to others that a person is righteous...or at least worthy  

It's probably more likely that people would view someone NOT taking the sacrament as a signal of non-virtue.

Who looks around to see if someone is or is not taking the sacrament?

[Ahab]

25 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I always thought it was weird that the Bishop got the sacrament first.

It is weird.

25 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I would think that the "servant of all" should receive it last.

But the servant of all is the greatest in the kingdom of God, because the keys which the greatest person (or persons) have entitle the greatest person(s) to both give and receive particular blessings in the kingdom of God.

25 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

At home, I always go last and it never even occurred to me to go first as the one "presiding"

So when in the home of a bishop of a ward, you don't think the wife and children of that bishop should wait until they see their bishop take the sacrament emblems before they take it themselves?  Not even when that bishop has sons with priesthood authority to bring it to him?

My wife just looks at me until I take it first, and if I didn't take it quickly she would probably just keep looking at me until I took it, and I am not even serving as the bishop of our ward now.

[Ahab]

10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Who looks around to see if someone is or is not taking the sacrament?

I like to watch as the emblems of the sacrament are being passed around, first to the one who is presiding and then to others in attendance. And all while I am contemplating the value of our Lord's sacrifice as the means of giving all of us a better way of life.

So, I do, and I often notice others watching too.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Who looks around to see if someone is or is not taking the sacrament?

Outside of a few rare cases where it is justified this practice is generally restricted to those who should not be taking the sacrament themselves.

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Outside of a few rare cases where it is justified this practice is generally restricted to those who should not be taking the sacrament themselves.

Considering the level of difficulty involved in seeing everybody who either does or does not partake of the sacrament emblems it should be no surprise that there are very few individuals who actually can.

[HappyJackWagon]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Who looks around to see if someone is or is not taking the sacrament?

You don't think that happens? Really?

When I was bishop I had people on a number of occasions report to me that so & so took the sacrament because they were believed they shouldn't be. Of course I told them to mind their own business, but still, it happens.

And even if people aren't actively watching to see who takes it, I think it is noticed when people do not take it.

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

You don't think that happens? Really?

When I was bishop I had people on a number of occasions report to me that so & so took the sacrament because they were believed they shouldn't be. Of course I told them to mind their own business, but still, it happens.

And even if people aren't actively watching to see who takes it, I think it is noticed when people do not take it.

I hope you told them they shouldn't take the sacrament next week as part of their repentance process for being a judgmental tattletale.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't see that it really matters either way.

Well as a host or hostess usually the "guests" eat first, I think, and are served first.  You don't grab the first piece of pie in the kitchen and then present it to the guests.  

When we were young and poor, the kids always ate first, to make sure there was enough for them.

I dunno.  I guess I can be offensive in not understanding Mormon - yes, Mormon, culture.

My wife's dad (LDS) always got the plate of meat first and he took his and then passed it to the kids.  In my house (Catholic) it was the other way around.

I can see that in more primitive times it was probably more important that the hunter was fully fed so that he had enough strength to provide for his family- but his purpose in life was to PROVIDE and not eat the game in the fields and then take the rest home.

I guess I am weird.  Freely acknowledged.  🤪

Matt 26:26

Quote

And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

Note the order was :

1- Blessed

2- Broke

3- Gave

I wonder when Christ took his share or even if He did.

I don't suppose it matters much that blessing came before the breaking, which is not the case in our Wards.

Go figure

[Amulek]

22 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Several times I have seen a bishop correct the deacon as he approaches him first when a member of the stake presidency is present. Also when the deacon has approached a high councilor, I have seem him defer to the bishop. I have done that myself. The folks on the stand know the score, so it's up to them to make the call. I've never seen them ignore the instructions. The intent was not to embarrass the deacon but to do what we have been asked to do. It was established by an apostle/prophet and sustained by his successors who put it in and keep it in the handbook, it is observed throughout the church, but if you say it's not really that important, I'll go with you.

So you've never seen a deacon start passing the sacrament to the congregation before the presiding authority has taken it first? 

I have. With some degree of regularity in fact.

What I have never seen, however, is a presiding authority restart the ordinance once that has been done. 

 

Edited August 6, 2020 by Amulek