Latter-day Saint Prophet as Prophet Over All Christianity .

[Calm]

10 hours ago, Navidad said:

If President Nelson is God's sole and only voice on earth

I am assuming others have responded, but posting this just in case they haven’t to get back to after reading the rest of the thread.  He is not God’s only voice. There are other witnesses.  His stewardship is the world, the apostles also speak to the world under his authority. The other authorities are voices in their particular stewardships.  Parents can be with righteousness God’s voice in their families. 

[Calm]

Quote

We have a prophet living on the earth today. This prophet is the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He has the right to revelation for the entire Church. He holds “the keys of the kingdom,” meaning that he has the authority to direct the entire Church and kingdom of God on earth, including the administration of priesthood ordinances (see Matthew 16:19). No person except the chosen prophet and President can receive God’s will for the entire membership of the Church. The Lord said, “There is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred” (D&C 132:7). 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-9-prophets-of-god?lang=eng

This does not mean he has authority to direct other Christian or nonChristian churches, though if God were to command him to act as a voice of warning as Jonah did, hopefully he would...and without the sulking afterwards if they actually listened to him. 

[Calm]

Quote

All of the context refers to the LDS Church. So how are the LDS priesthood keys the key to the question "Is the LDS president thee prophet over the entire Christian community, and if so how is he currently active in that role?

As others have said, not just the Christian community but the whole world. 
 

As Smac partly mentioned in his first post iirc, the Prophet uses Priesthood Keys to administer the missionary and humanitarian programs.  There are also the proclamations that are proclaimed under his authority. 

[Calm]

https://www.comeuntochrist.org/beliefs/jesus-christ-church/god-speaks-through-prophets
 

This is from our outreach website, so written for nonmembers:

Quote

How do prophets impact society?

While God’s commandments never change, the world we live in is always changing. Different periods of time have each brought with them new circumstances and unique challenges. Prophets receive direction from God to help people navigate challenges and situations.

In the Bible, prophets urged the people to repent and foretold of the birth, death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Today, prophets continue to testify of Jesus. They also warn and advise all people about important topics.

Recent prophetic teachings address social issues such as marriage and family relationships, practical matters such as education and financial responsibility, and spiritual subjects that help us overcome personal trials and find greater confidence and faith...

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is unique in the world today because prophets provide regular, divine direction from God. These messages are available to all people. The current prophet, President Russell M. Nelson, along with twelve apostles, speaks to the world twice a year during a series of meetings called general conference. The words of the prophet and the apostles are broadcast internationally and shared online for all to enjoy. The prophet and the apostles witness that Jesus is the Savior, and they help us follow His example

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

From whom did you take sarcasm classes? You certainly learned you lessons well! As I recall you referred me to D&C 132:7 and D&C 65: 1-6. I see nothing in either of those texts about what we are discussing which is - Does the President of the LDS Church exercise authority over all the people on earth due to his being the senior priesthood holder in the LDS church. I see references to the Kingdom of God in your verses, but since you believe that the Kingdom of God is a LDS populated place (unless you agree that hundreds of thousands of non-LDS Christians will try and get in at the last minute) that has nothing to do with all the rest of the folks on earth, especially (from my OP) with spiritual and administrative authority over all the rest of Christianity on the planet. Also you clearly stated that the Priesthood keys were the key! I see nothing in the church's own explanation of the priesthood keys to suggest they grant authority for ordinances, governance, etc. beyond the walls of the LDS chapel or temple. What am I missing?

A lot.

[CV75]

13 hours ago, Navidad said:

Of course the church exists for everyone . . . I wouldn't question that. "Whosoever will may come!" That has nothing however to do with my original question which was in more or less fewer words, "Does the President of the LDS Church have spiritual and administrative authority over all people in the world, Christian or not? Does his position as the highest priesthood holder in the LDS Church give him authority over all Christians in the world - others have expanded that to be over all people in the world? That is a supercalifragilisticexpialadocius (wonderful or amazing claim! Is that formal LDS doctrine and how does that work in the day to day world? Those are the other aspects of my original question. I agree completely with your comment, but it doesn't answer my questions.

I see that "prophet for the whole world and not just members" refers to the priesthood keys and not administrative authority over their various organizations. Even members of the Church belong to other organizations in addition to the Church, and he has no authority there. "Spiritual authority" refers to the keys, and while he has the authority to exercise them for everyone, everyone is only a willing participant to the degree they consent to, due to agency.

PS I think I addressed the other questions here: Posted 22 hours ago

Yes, it is formal LDS doctrine, applies to Christians and non-Christians, and operates in the day to day world as I described it above, and doctrine must also be understood, including agency and all that entails.

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by CV75

[Bernard Gui]

15 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I see that "prophet for the whole world and not just members" refers to the priesthood keys and not administrative authority over their various organizations. Even members of the Church belong to other organizations in addition to the Church, and he has no authority there. "Spiritual authority" refers to the keys, and while he has the authority to exercise them for everyone, everyone is only a willing participant to the degree they consent to, due to agency.

PS I think I addressed the other questions here: Posted 22 hours ago

Yes, it is formal LDS doctrine, applies to Christians and non-Christians, and operates in the day to day world as I described it above, and doctrine must also be understood, including agency and all that entails.

 

Yes. Would you agree that the current prophet holds the keys of salvation and exaltation for all who are living on the earth and all who have passed into the Spirit World? This extends his importance considerably.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Navidad]

12 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You may want to check the temple recommend interview questions.

 

My comment was specifically about the baptismal recommendation question, which are what a non-LDS has to commit to in order to become LDS. The temple recommend speaks specifically to LDS members who want to access the temple. So, in my mind, the context is the LDS world in those questions. Very different intent and purpose. The term "all priesthood keys" is an LDS concept with meaning and purpose only for the LDS member. One clearly says "a" prophet while the more advanced series of questions brings into the question "the" prophet. Which of course he is for LDS members seeking opportunity to participate in LDS ordinances and endowments.

[Navidad]

12 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It is amazing to me that someone could have spent so much time amongst the Saints and still not know us.

Proclamation

From the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, April 6, 1980

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized 150 years ago today. On this sesquicentennial anniversary we issue to the world a proclamation concerning its progress, its doctrine, its mission, and its message.

On April 6, 1830, a small group assembled in the farmhouse of Peter Whitmer in Fayette Township in the state of New York. Six men participated in the formal organization procedures, with Joseph Smith as their leader. From that modest beginning in a rural area, this work has grown consistently and broadly, as men and women in many lands have embraced the doctrine and entered the waters of baptism. There are now almost four and a half million living members, and the Church is stronger and growing more rapidly than at any time in its history. Congregations of Latter-day Saints are found throughout North, Central, and South America; in the nations of Europe; in Asia; in Africa; in Australia and the islands of the South Pacific; and in other areas of the world. The gospel restored through the instrumentality of Joseph Smith is presently taught in forty-six languages and in eighty-one nations. From that small meeting held in a farmhouse a century and a half ago, the Church has grown until today it includes nearly twelve thousand organized congregations.

We testify that this restored gospel was introduced into the world by the marvelous appearance of God the Eternal Father and his Son, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. That most glorious manifestation marked the beginning of the fulfillment of the promise of Peter, who prophesied of “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began,” this in preparation for the coming of the Lord to reign personally upon the earth (Acts 3:21).

We solemnly affirm that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is in fact a restoration of the Church established by the Son of God, when in mortality he organized his work upon the earth; that it carries his sacred name, even the name of Jesus Christ; that it is built upon a foundation of Apostles and prophets, he being the chief cornerstone; that its priesthood, in both the Aaronic and Melchizedek orders, was restored under the hands of those who held it anciently: John the Baptist, in the case of the Aaronic; and Peter, James, and John in the case of the Melchizedek.

We declare that the Book of Mormon was brought forth by the gift and power of God and that it stands beside the Bible as another witness of Jesus the Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of mankind. Together they testify of his divine sonship.

We give our witness that the doctrines and practices of the Church encompass salvation and exaltation not only for those who are living, but also for the dead, and that in sacred temples built for this purpose a great vicarious work is going forward in behalf of those who have died, so that all men and women of all generations may become the beneficiaries of the saving ordinances of the gospel of the Master. This great, selfless labor is one of the distinguishing features of this restored Church of Jesus Christ.

We affirm the sanctity of the family as a divine creation and declare that God our Eternal Father will hold parents accountable to rear their children in light and truth, teaching them “to pray, and to walk uprightly before the Lord” (D&C 68:28). We teach that the most sacred of all relationships, those family associations of husbands and wives and parents and children, may be continued eternally when marriage is solemnized under the authority of the holy priesthood exercised in temples dedicated for these divinely authorized purposes.

We bear witness that all men and women are sons and daughters of God, each accountable to him; that our lives here on earth are part of an eternal plan; that death is not the end, but rather a transition from this to another sphere of purposeful activity made possible through the Atonement of the Redeemer of the world; and that we shall there have the opportunity of working and growing toward perfection.

We testify that the spirit of prophecy and revelation is among us. “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God” (A of F 1:9). The heavens are not sealed; God continues to speak to his children through a prophet empowered to declare his word, now as he did anciently.

The mission of the Church today, as it has been from the beginning, is to teach the gospel of Christ to all the world in obedience to the commandment given by the Savior prior to his ascension and repeated in modern revelation: “Go ye into all the world, preach the gospel to every creature, acting in the authority which I have given you, baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (D&C 68:8).

Through the Prophet Joseph Smith the Lord revealed these words of solemn warning: “Hearken ye people from afar; and ye that are upon the islands of the sea, listen together.

“For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.

“And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed.

“And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days” (D&C 1:1–4).

It is our obligation, therefore, to teach faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, to plead with the people of the earth for individual repentance, to administer the sacred ordinances of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost—all of this under the authority of the priesthood of God.

It is our responsibility to espouse and follow an inspired program of instruction and activity, and to build and maintain appropriate facilities for the accomplishment of this, that all who will hear and accept may grow in understanding of doctrine and develop in principles of Christian service to their fellowmen.

As we stand today on the summit of 150 years of progress, we contemplate humbly and gratefully the sacrifices of those who have gone before us, many of whom gave their lives in testimony of this truth. We are thankful for their faith, for their example, for their mighty labors and willing consecrations for this cause which they considered more precious than life itself. They have passed to us a remarkable heritage. We are resolved to build on that heritage for the blessing and benefit of those who follow, who will constitute ever enlarging numbers of faithful men and women throughout the earth.

This is God’s work. It is his kingdom we are building. Anciently the prophet Daniel spoke of it as a stone cut out of the mountain without hands, which was to roll forth to fill the whole earth (see Dan. 2:31–45). We invite the honest in heart everywhere to listen to the teachings of our missionaries who are sent forth as messengers of eternal truth, to study and learn, and to ask God, our Eternal Father, in the name of his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, if these things are true.

“And if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

“And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things” (Moro. 10:4–5).

We call upon all men and women to forsake evil and turn to God; to work together to build that brotherhood which must be recognized when we truly come to know that God is our Father and we are his children; and to worship him and his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior of mankind. In the authority of the Holy Priesthood in us vested, we bless the seekers of truth wherever they may be and invoke the favor of the Almighty upon all men and nations whose God is the Lord, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Great statement. A powerful testimony to what the LDS believe, as far as it (the statement) goes . . . It seems as if I am asking about A and some of you keep bringing up B, C, D, and E. A genuine question, how does this statement answer my questions? I am asking very specific questions about things I do either know or understand and that are not mentioned in this statement. As a refresher, here is my original post in its entirety:

A few days ago, one of the members of our forum posted the following. I found it to be utterly fascinating and have thought a lot about it ever since. Here is what was said, referring to President Nelson:

“I realize that not all people feel this way, but we believe he is the prophet for the whole world and not just members. . .” 

(emphasis mine)

I think this is a very interesting and important comment that certainly garnered its share of likes from the members of this forum. That is of course, no surprise. I have never heard this before, nor do I ever remember reading this in any LDS writings.

Four questions:

Does anyone on this forum know any non-LDS Christians who accept or acknowledge President Nelson as their Prophet (I am capitalizing the word because it seems to me it deserves capitalization if he is thee Prophet for all Christianity in this dispensation? 

Do all or the vast majority of LDS Christians believe this to be true?

Is it a doctrine of the church, and if so, where is it spelled out in writing? If it is a doctrine of the church, I think it is very important that the non-LDS Christian community is aware of this. I have a feeling that 99% of the 99% of Christians who are not LDS, are not aware of this doctrine or belief. Or maybe I have just missed it in all my study!

My last question is a bit harder to word. If he is thee Prophet for all of Christianity, what does that mean? How does that play out in the real world? How does he fulfill that role on a day to day basis? What is his pastoral or administrative authority as such, in and over the non-LDS portion of Christianity? Does he actively teach this? Has any LDS president ever actually done or said anything in that role? Or is it something assumed by the faithful, but never actually taught? I must admit I have never thought of this before. It is very interesting.

To the Catholic folks on the forum, do Catholics believe and teach that the Pope is thee Prophet for all of Christianity in the world, including LDS Christians, or is he the head and Prophet of the Roman Catholic church? Does the Patriarch of the Eastern Orthodox Community, I believe his name is Bartholomew, believe and teach that he is the Prophet or Patriarch for all of Christianity in the world, including the LDS, Baptist, Pentecostal Christians of the world? Are there any such competing claims in the rest of Christianity? This kind of claim really floats my boat. I find it fascinating to think about. Thanks to all for your thoughts.

_______________________________________________________________________

Perhaps I wasn't clear - my fault. I am asking: If President Nelson is thee prophet over all Christians (now expanded to all people) of the world, what does that mean? The only reference in the above statement to a modern prophet is the following:

"Through the Prophet Joseph Smith the Lord revealed these words of solemn warning: “Hearken ye people from afar; and ye that are upon the islands of the sea, listen together.

“For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.

“And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed.

“And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days” (D&C 1:1–4)."

There is nothing uniquely LDS in these verses that I can see. It is a statement about the universality of the gospel of Jesus Christ. "There is none to escape" sounds a bit ominous, but I can relate to it in a fundamentalist kind of a way. I am not sure who the "rebellious" are or what it is saying about their destiny. "The voice of warning" is a bit ominous, but I have heard many fundamentalist non-LDS preachers say similar things. Nothing new here. This is a basic core, rather harsh statement of the gospel - the Christian gospel. Billy Sunday, Dwight L Moody, John. R Rice, or even a Jerry Falwell could and would have said the same thing.

So getting back to my question.  "If he (President Nelson) is thee Prophet for all of Christianity, what does that mean?" You haven't even tried in all your quotes to answer that. I regret that because I ask a question, you don't answer it, and then berate me for not being satisfied or understanding your non-answer. I could think of a dozen specific questions to ask about someone being thee prophet over all Christianity, but I only asked a few. In my mind a prophet has authority, power, and the ability to intervene with God. He or she is a powerful preacher, and can literally prophesy specific events in the future.

 

[Navidad]

12 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

My take is somewhat rough and unschooled, but we know that the Prophet and President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Presiding High Priest of the Melchizedek Priesthood on Earth, and thus presides over it's extension, the Aaronic Priesthood. These are the priesthoods through which covenants with God are made, covenants which determine our standing with and obligations towards God and His kingdom on the Earth. All covenants made in the Church are made on the basis of delegated authority from God, which passes through the Presiding High Priest. 

It seems to me that the Prophet has direct spiritual and administrative authority (such as it is in a Church which does not pretend to civil authority) over those who have made covenants by way of the Priesthood over which he is steward. The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve are tasked with extending those covenants to all of humanity. As such, they are empowered to make proclamations to the world and send forth missionaries, which is why missionary assignments are carried out under the supervision of an Apostle at all times. These proclamations go to the world bearing the imprimatur of God's kingdom, but I can't imagine that they would maintain any form of authoritative force over those who have not covenanted to sustain and be bound by them. Old Testament prophets, with some notable exceptions, mainly confined their preaching to Israel, the covenant people. When prophets such as Jonah (putting the historicity of Jonah aside for a moment) went beyond the borders of Israel, they usually did so under specific instructions. The same goes with the Lord and his original Twelve Apostles, who were constrained to Israel until the Lord commanded otherwise. It seems to me that the authority of prophets extends to those under covenant, save when the Lord commands them to preach to the broader world. 

Thus, I think the LDS Prophet is the direct spiritual leader over those who have made covenants through the restored priesthood, and his stewardship with regard to the rest of the world consists of warning, admonition, and invitation to make those same covenants. 

I'm just spitballing, though. I very well could be wrong, and I welcome correction where it is merited. 

I would have given you five likes if I could. Thank you for directly speaking to my questions. Your statement "Thus, I think the LDS Prophet is the direct spiritual leader over those who have made covenants through the restored priesthood, and his stewardship with regard to the rest of the world consists of warning, admonition, and invitation to make those same covenants" is a simple, yet profound answer to my questions. No Christian, LDS or not could deny President Nelson either of those roles. If I were to try and say what I think you are saying even more simply, President Nelson is thee prophet of the LDS church and an evangelist to the rest of the non-LDS Christian world. In my terminology that would make him a prophet to his people and an evangelist to the rest of the non-LDS world, including the rest of the Christian world (while I would disagree with the need to do anything more than "invite" the rest of the Christian world, that is my view and is not relevant to this discussion).  I see the role of prophet and evangelist as two very different Biblical roles. My namesake Philip in Acts was an evangelist. Elijah was a prophet. Huge difference. Perhaps you are not comfortable with that distinction. Thanks so very much for your post.

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I would have given you five likes if I could. Thank you for directly speaking to my questions. Your statement "Thus, I think the LDS Prophet is the direct spiritual leader over those who have made covenants through the restored priesthood, and his stewardship with regard to the rest of the world consists of warning, admonition, and invitation to make those same covenants" is a simple, yet profound answer to my questions. No Christian, LDS or not could deny President Nelson either of those roles. If I were to try and say what I think you are saying even more simply, President Nelson is thee prophet of the LDS church and an evangelist to the rest of the non-LDS Christian world. In my terminology that would make him a prophet to his people and an evangelist to the rest of the non-LDS world, including the rest of the Christian world (while I would disagree with the need to do anything more than "invite" the rest of the Christian world, that is my view and is not relevant to this discussion).  I see the role of prophet and evangelist as two very different Biblical roles. My namesake Philip in Acts was an evangelist. Elijah was a prophet. Huge difference. Perhaps you are not comfortable with that distinction. Thanks so very much for your post.

That does sound good, and believe it would suit Pres Nelson as well!

[Navidad]

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You speak of an LDS bishop being "over" people, while the LDS themselves see him as a servant who makes himself available.  And it is a tough job, as any pastor, rabbi, or imam understands.  All have spiritual authority, but I am unfamiliar with the concept of force being married to that concept.  Some churches and religious organizations do employ force and civil law to require obedience to their spiritual demands.  As you know, the Inquisition and John Calvin used to burn heretics at the stake, but only if torture did not change their opinions.  Even in Colonial America, the Puritans and the Church of England each exercised direct control over any person living in their jurisdiction.  The Puritans executing people for witchcraft, and the Anglicans taxing everyone and controlling their civil conduct (a state church).  I thought that we had pretty much left all that behind, but you seem to feel that perhaps we have not.

Certainly there has been a coercive role in much of religious history, including that of many if not all Christian groups. In a sense that coercion is found in much missiological work. It has been linked to colonialism and to the simple threat of perdition of some sort or another. Just as certainly many, if not most pastors relate to being shepherds more than overlords. Obviously that distinction has also gotten confused at times.

No church or faith that I know of has been exempt from making God cry. You are correct, I do not believe we have left that behind. To say that is to deny current reality in the world. Sometimes religion hurts. Sometimes that hurt is caused deliberately, at times accidentally, and at times it is the result of blind spots of the religious. Religion and love are often linked: either can bring the greatest joy and fulfillment, or the greatest pain, or both. Yes, I believe that is true today. It was within my father's lifetime that thousands of my faith were killed in the Holdomor and thousands of the Catholic faith in the Cristero wars. It is within your and my lifetime that thousands more have been killed in places like Nigeria. The causations are complicated, but a current of religious conflict flows through each of these episodes. And it continues. I do not believe the book has yet been written about the extent of coercion in religious persuasion, including in both your and my traditions.

[Navidad]

12 hours ago, Raingirl said:

That’s because he’s not interested in knowing or understanding us. His only interest is in criticizing us and our beliefs. He’s admitted he only attends an LDS ward because it’s the most convenient, and then proceeds to attack our beliefs, whine that we don’t consider he and his wife members of the church, or recognize their superiority that he’s constantly telling us about. 

Attending a church simply because it’s the closest and you can’t be bothered to make the effort to travel a little further, only to then spend years on the internet whining and criticizing - rather bizarre behavior.  I would think that a person would much rather attend a church whose teachings they agree with. That would be the logical path. But then one wouldn’t be able to brag about their superiority, would they?

Perhaps some day you, my wife, and I could sit down and actually meet and chat. I would like that.

[JLHPROF]

37 minutes ago, Navidad said:

If I were to try and say what I think you are saying even more simply, President Nelson is thee prophet of the LDS church and an evangelist to the rest of the non-LDS Christian world. In my terminology that would make him a prophet to his people and an evangelist to the rest of the non-LDS world, including the rest of the Christian world

I understand what you are saying here but I disagree.  Acceptance of or belief in the prophetic calling is not required to make someone a prophet to a community.  Scriptural records make that obvious.

Scripture is full of prophets preaching to, warning, and prophesying about groups of people who reject their calling.  Moses was as much a prophet to Pharaoh and the Egyptians as he was to Israel, everything he taught them, warned them about, and prophesied came to pass for them.

Think of all the rejected prophets.  And then there's Jesus and the Jews.  He is their Lord, Savior and Messiah regardless of their beliefs.

And the prophet today is the prophet to the whole world whether they accept or believe him or not.

[webbles]

56 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I would have given you five likes if I could. Thank you for directly speaking to my questions. Your statement "Thus, I think the LDS Prophet is the direct spiritual leader over those who have made covenants through the restored priesthood, and his stewardship with regard to the rest of the world consists of warning, admonition, and invitation to make those same covenants" is a simple, yet profound answer to my questions. No Christian, LDS or not could deny President Nelson either of those roles. If I were to try and say what I think you are saying even more simply, President Nelson is thee prophet of the LDS church and an evangelist to the rest of the non-LDS Christian world. In my terminology that would make him a prophet to his people and an evangelist to the rest of the non-LDS world, including the rest of the Christian world (while I would disagree with the need to do anything more than "invite" the rest of the Christian world, that is my view and is not relevant to this discussion).  I see the role of prophet and evangelist as two very different Biblical roles. My namesake Philip in Acts was an evangelist. Elijah was a prophet. Huge difference. Perhaps you are not comfortable with that distinction. Thanks so very much for your post.

How does Tacenda's statement not describe Elijah? I read her statement and I see that describing Elijah just as well as President Nelson.  Both of them had the same calling and responsibility.

[Bernard Gui]

58 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

That does sound good, and believe it would suit Pres Nelson as well!

But the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is so much more than an evangelist to the world. He is neither a Philip nor an Elijah. He holds the keys of all the prophets of previous dispensations of the gospel, delivered personally to the Prophet Joseph Smith and passed on through succession to President Nelson.  He holds the keys to the world's salvation....and not just this world, but also the Spirit World. That's why this is called the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times....it all comes to a head here and now. This is clearly taught in D&C 110.

Quote

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.

2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.

3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.

5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.

6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.

7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.

8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.

9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.

10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.

11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.

12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.

13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious visionburst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:

14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—

15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—

16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Navidad]

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

On the other hand, he is doing a doctorate on the LDS Church, so it seems like a good idea for him to attend regularly.  I do agree that he needs some lessons on accurate reportage, rather than misreading and misunderstanding everything.  Perhaps he will drop some of those flaws along the way.  One can hope.

Ok my friend, lets please both be accurate. First, I am not doing a doctorate on the LDS Church. My doctoral work is a PhD in Modern Mexican history.  My dissertation is on the Second Cristero War in northern Mexico. So, I am not attending the ward to garner research. I am sad you think that. Perhaps you and I also need to sit down sometime and get to know each other in person. I would be happy to come to you wherever you live to facilitate that. Or if necessary we could have someone in the church who you and I both trust to help facilitate that conversation. The only time the LDS Church has come up in my academic work is in relation to the economic impact of the Mormon and Mennonite colonies on this area from 1904 or so on, including the land/ejido conflicts. The tensions here between Anglo Mormons and Mennonites and the Mestizo population are significant. With neither group does religion or faith have much to do with it. Much of it is about land and water.

The last half of your comment I would be a fool not to agree with. I just reread something I wrote that you criticized me for. Your rebuke was clearly justified. I believe I made a typo that completely changed the meaning of what I wrote. My fault completely. I am doing that more and more lately. I get in a hurry and my arthritis in my hands is getting much worse. I also am not careful enough and don't always review what I have written. Guilty on all counts.

What I regret the most is that it appears that some on the board, you including are attributing a less-than-honorable intent in our attending the ward. That saddens me a lot. We love it there. It also isn't just a short drive to go somewhere else, even if we wanted to do so. The nearest English-speaking evangelical church is around four hours from our home and involves crossing the border, a very challenging proposition right now. I think SMAC97, the only forum member who I know who is familiar with our area can attest to that. Even if that were not the case, we would still desire to attend the ward. That may not be possible in the future, but it would not be our decision to stay home.

I would only suggest in my own defense that I do feel that sometimes there are those on this forum who don't even try to answer my specific questions. Generic verses, quotes, etc. sometimes don't help. That is all I will say about that. I am "the other," as such my questions will never be taken seriously. My motivations will constantly be questioned. I sometimes contribute to that by not being careful enough. All my life I have been a flighter, not a fighter. I learned that the hard way. Far better for me to have been invisible at home. Maybe the same is true here.

[JamesBYoung]

Yes, from my earliest days in the Church, I have been taught over the pulpit, in priesthood, seminary, institute, religion classes, etc., that the Presiding High Priest of the Church of Jesus Christ is the head of the whole Christian world, with power, worlds without end.

I imagine the RC believes that of the Pope.

I imagine the leaders of the Church of Christ believe that of their leadership.

This is nothing new or radical.  And, yes, Navidad, I believe you have no hidden 'secret combination' desire to make  the Church look bad.

Edited July 3, 2020 by JamesBYoung

[Navidad]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/04/the-prophet-of-god?lang=eng
 

The Prophet is God’s watchman, not his king. 

He calls all of us in the world to remind us of God’s promises, he functions as voice of warning to those who think of turning from the path to God. 
 

I would say he is responsible to the world, all in the world have the right to ask of him for his witness of the Lord.  He is responsible to God for sharing his witness to those he is commanded to share it. 
 

OTOH, he is not responsible for the world, only for those who accept his authority and follow his counsel is he required by God to account for as described in the D&C iirc (I will try and find the scripture I am thinking of...added, can’t find the one I am thinking of, maybe someone else can come up with a relevant one).  For all it is a voluntary submission to his authority given to him by God. 

Thanks. I think where I may be getting confused is in the regular and somewhat constant LDS use of the word authority.  Authority is indeed being "over" (in some sense it involved power) it is exercising prerogative. Pastoral work is being beside helping, comforting, and occasionally holding to account. Evangelistic work is leading along; guiding someone to a new way.

I have authority to baptize in the Baptist church. That is a prerogative that I can assert. No LDS authority has authority or prerogative to assert the same in the Baptist church. That is what I think of when and LDS person says that President Nelson has authority over the whole Christian community, which then grants him the prerogative to go into any Christian church anywhere in the world and assert that "authority" because it is given to him directly by God for all Christianity. I don't understand how the word authority works in that context. Of course he is the pastor for the whole LDS community world-wide. No need to ask more about that. What you are describing as "sharing his witness" is what an evangelist does - it doesn't take authority to share one''s witness. In my understanding an evangelist is not a prophet and vice-versa. Perhaps once again we are divided by a common language which has different meanings for the same words.

I so want to understand correctly. That seems to be a fact in doubt by many on this board. I regret that. I don't know if we are any closer to something that has meaning to both of us and that we can both understand if we say President Nelson is the pastor or shepherd for the entire LDS church as he is thee prophet to the same community. He also is called by God to evangelize the world to the truth of the LDS faith, in that sense he is the chief Evangelist of the LDS Church. He is a pastor, prophet, and evangelist. The first two to the LDS church and the last to the world. The latter is his role in the greater Christian community. I don't think the latter involves authority per-se. It involves witness and testimony. The pastor, prophet, and evangelist in our tradition are three completely different roles. Thanks.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Ok my friend, lets please both be accurate. First, I am not doing a doctorate on the LDS Church. My doctoral work is a PhD in Modern Mexican history.  My dissertation is on the Second Cristero War in northern Mexico. So, I am not attending the ward to garner research. I am sad you think that. .................

What I regret the most is that it appears that some on the board, you including are attributing a less-than-honorable intent in our attending the ward. That saddens me a lot.

Sorry, Phil.  I don't know why I thought that, but I thought it a good reason to attend, not dishonorable in any way.  I myself have done exactly that, and it is standard policy among anthropologists.  I just wasn't paying attention to your self-description, but rather probably concluded that from some of the papers you have written for LDS symposia of various kinds.  I should have carefully checked before foolishly attempting to defend your efforts.

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

.................I would only suggest in my own defense that I do feel that sometimes there are those on this forum who don't even try to answer my specific questions. Generic verses, quotes, etc. sometimes don't help. That is all I will say about that. I am "the other," as such my questions will never be taken seriously. My motivations will constantly be questioned. I sometimes contribute to that by not being careful enough. All my life I have been a flighter, not a fighter. I learned that the hard way. Far better for me to have been invisible at home. Maybe the same is true here.

Actually, your questions have been taken seriously here, and of course your motivations will come into question -- based on how you frame questions, and on how you describe responses.  It is usually very helpful to quote those you are interpreting, lest they feel that you have misinterpreted them.

[Stargazer]

On 7/2/2020 at 8:07 PM, mfbukowski said:

Ok gang, ready to flip out?

I'm always flipped out. 🙂 

On 7/2/2020 at 8:07 PM, mfbukowski said:

We know that Christ's sacrifice on this planet, was the infinite sacrifice for all the worlds God has made 

I'm not sure this is the case.  But perhaps this isn't the thread to speculate on this.

On 7/2/2020 at 8:07 PM, mfbukowski said:

So is our prophet then THE prophet for the universe?

Of course there are other worlds where the Father has children for whom He has called a prophet. Of course we're not told about those other worlds because it's not our business.

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.
35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.
36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.
37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.
38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory — to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. (Moses 1:33-39)

God would not leave those in other worlds without a prophet.

On 7/2/2020 at 8:07 PM, mfbukowski said:

No wonder there are so many UFO sightings lately.

They're just trying to get the latest conference report.

LOL.

[Navidad]

15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

We have several Roman Catholic members on this board.  I'd be interested in their responses.

So would I. I posted that in my original post!

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

............................. And it continues. I do not believe the book has yet been written about the extent of coercion in religious persuasion, including in both your and my traditions.

Some religious traditions have been very coercive, and do not have a belief in freedom of choice.  The use of shunning, for example, is merely one tool used to punish even today among the Amish.  Most religious groups have become far more liberal than that, and pretty much tolerate anything for the sake of peace and harmony.  Even ordinary boundary management is often abandoned.

[Stargazer]

On 7/2/2020 at 5:37 PM, Navidad said:

A few days ago, one of the members of our forum posted the following. I found it to be utterly fascinating and have thought a lot about it ever since. Here is what was said, referring to President Nelson:

“I realize that not all people feel this way, but we believe he is the prophet for the whole world and not just members. . .” 

(emphasis mine)

I think this is a very interesting and important comment that certainly garnered its share of likes from the members of this forum. That is of course, no surprise. I have never heard this before, nor do I ever remember reading this in any LDS writings.

Four questions:

Does anyone on this forum know any non-LDS Christians who accept or acknowledge President Nelson as their Prophet (I am capitalizing the word because it seems to me it deserves capitalization if he is thee Prophet for all Christianity in this dispensation? 

Do all or the vast majority of LDS Christians believe this to be true?

Is it a doctrine of the church, and if so, where is it spelled out in writing? If it is a doctrine of the church, I think it is very important that the non-LDS Christian community is aware of this. I have a feeling that 99% of the 99% of Christians who are not LDS, are not aware of this doctrine or belief. Or maybe I have just missed it in all my study!

My last question is a bit harder to word. If he is thee Prophet for all of Christianity, what does that mean? How does that play out in the real world? How does he fulfill that role on a day to day basis? What is his pastoral or administrative authority as such, in and over the non-LDS portion of Christianity? Does he actively teach this? Has any LDS president ever actually done or said anything in that role? Or is it something assumed by the faithful, but never actually taught? I must admit I have never thought of this before. It is very interesting.

To the Catholic folks on the forum, do Catholics believe and teach that the Pope is thee Prophet for all of Christianity in the world, including LDS Christians, or is he the head and Prophet of the Roman Catholic church? Does the Patriarch of the Eastern Orthodox Community, I believe his name is Bartholomew, believe and teach that he is the Prophet or Patriarch for all of Christianity in the world, including the LDS, Baptist, Pentecostal Christians of the world? Are there any such competing claims in the rest of Christianity? This kind of claim really floats my boat. I find it fascinating to think about. Thanks to all for your thoughts.

I wonder that you would have a question about this, actually. Wouldn't it follow naturally from the term Prophet?  If a man is called of God to be a prophet, that seems to me to be a quite universal ministry.

When Elijah was the Prophet, was he the prophet for the whole earth, or only for the Israelites?  Did God limit his jurisdiction to only that little corner of the Middle East?  When Peter was the chief Apostle, was he an apostle for the whole earth, or only for the Christians?  Was that the limit of his jurisdiction?

Regardless of whether these specially called men were recognized by anyone else does not limit the validity of their worldwide responsibility.  

God is the god of the whole earth, not just one little corner of it.  If He calls a man to prophetic responsibility, He has never, to the best of my knowledge, said that there was a geographic or a demographic limit to that responsibility.  Moses, for example, was among the Israelites, but he was a prophet to the Egyptians just as well, regardless of whether Pharoah recognized him as such. 

If you know of a scripture that limits a prophet's authority, please point it out to me. 🙂 

If Russell M. Nelson is not a prophet of God, he has no authority to speak for God, and any authority that he has is derived only from the voices of those who recognize him as an authority. Only in that fashion, by only being a limited prophet, would he NOT be a prophet for the entire world. 

[Robert F. Smith]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

I am assuming others have responded, but posting this just in case they haven’t to get back to after reading the rest of the thread.  He is not God’s only voice. There are other witnesses.  His stewardship is the world, the apostles also speak to the world under his authority. The other authorities are voices in their particular stewardships.  Parents can be with righteousness God’s voice in their families. 

 

13 hours ago, Calm said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-9-prophets-of-god?lang=eng

This does not mean he has authority to direct other Christian or nonChristian churches, though if God were to command him to act as a voice of warning as Jonah did, hopefully he would...and without the sulking afterwards if they actually listened to him. 

When Phil asks "If President Nelson is God's sole and only voice on earth," a "No" answer is certainly required.  As you point out, there are a number of prophets, seers, and revelators simultaneously present, just as they were in biblical times.  And, just like a father in a family giving a patriarchal blessing, each is entitled to speak as moved by the Holy Spirit.  Each elder or sister on a mission, each bishop or stake pres, etc., is entitled to speak with a prophetic voice -- just as Paul and others have taught us in Holy Writ.