How Was Your Sacrament Ordinance Performed?

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, alter idem said:

I guess we can use these wards to test the theories out there. 

If we had access to that data somehow and had controls in place where we could compare by geographic location, that would be interesting to see.

Things are really starting to spike in Utah (we had nearly 550 cases in a single day over the weekend), the timing of returning to church with this spike is really concerning to me.  

https://coronavirus.utah.gov/case-counts/

[pogi]

33 minutes ago, alter idem said:

Don't forget that before the shutdown it was understood that a vaccine might never be found.  That wasn't the reason for the shutdown.  The purpose was to slow the rate of active cases to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed.  This seemed to get lost somewhere along the line.

No, I think that is a very important point.  As cases continue to spike, hospitalizations are only going to increase and that is very concerning.  Now is NOT the time to get lax about this.  Those under 65 account for the vast majority of all hospitalizations, FYI.  So, if the goal is to not overwhelm hospitals, then it is very important that they take this seriously too.

Edited June 8, 2020 by pogi

[juliann]

23 hours ago, alter idem said:

My husband was just texted that they have given him a new ministering family. The ward had been going over weekly to provide sacrament since March,  but in the last month have been unable to reach them. Today the member called, very angry and said they are going to file a claim against the church for forgetting them the last month.if they don't bring sacrament.  My husband will be doing it this afternoon, and I guess he'll need to go over to their house every week and not miss, even if he can't reach them by phone. 

Oh for heaven's sake. That is disgusting. Perhaps your husband should threaten to sue them if he is forced to expose himself to possible infection. 

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, Ratbag said:

It's amazing just how many supposedly awake members drink the kool-aid shoveled out by the lamestream media. 

Criticizing others for being duped by using a term that comes directly from the kool-aid is either a brilliant piece of irony or more than a little self-delusion.

[juliann]

On 6/7/2020 at 6:51 AM, Anijen said:

We are going back to church today. In my ward we have some who are very politically divided members, and they have in my view a hysteria about the safety of returning to meetings and in particularly in the manner the sacrament ordinance is performed and passed. This fear has influenced our Bishopric to instruct the priests and deacons to perform the sacrament ordinance in a safe manner, one that . However, in my opinion, goes way out of the way to assuage certain peoples safety precautions and, in my view, is so far out of the ordinary that it has become a mockery of the sacred ordinance. For example the sacrament will be blessed and put on separate plate and the deacons will pass them using tongs to drop in our cupped hands. Furthermore, we are instructed to bring our phones to sing the hymns with, there will be no hymnals. We are instructed to stand back from the podium and not touch the microphone or the podium at all when we bear our testimonies. Of course, we all will be separated in family groups in the Chapel, Gym, and Relief Society room. I support the Bishopric, but sometimes I wish they were less influenced by a few of the ward members.

I am all for safety, but this too me is extreme to the point of making a sacred ordinance second to calm a few peoples fears. Our sacrament starts at 10:00 and I am probably being just a grumpy old member... I hope that is it, but I do confess, it is more than a little bit annoying. I'll probably come back after meeting and say "never mind, my bad, it was great." It least I hope I say that.

What say you?

I like grumpy old members. I think tongs is innovative, I hadn't seen that as a possibility. As long as they aren't the big long kind, I think it is a great solution to an obvious problem. In a way, it even makes it more personal to have a direct person to person experience rather than watching all the children finger through the bread on the way down the row. 

I think these cautions are something the church is doing right, even though my age group has been told to stay home (again, wise.) They are being proactive as well as responsive and it makes me proud. The only thing that surprised me was allowing singing. For those lucky enough to have good musicians, that would be a lovely substitute. 

[The Nehor]

52 minutes ago, alter idem said:

They didn’t hold public meetings for a while,  but they also didn't quarantine healthy people as we have done.  Their society wouldn't have survived doing that, as there was no welfare system and the poor and lower classes would've starved to death.  The sick were quarantined, the healthy kept their routines, though taking precautions, but some couldn't do that, as there was a war going on. The war and troop movements did a lot to turn it into a pandemic as it spread aroind the world. More worldwide poverty and less medical treatments and availability contributed as well.  Businesses were not shut down.  We're in a very different time, 100 years later.

The degree of the lockdown during Spanish flu varied wildly across the country. Some communities shut down some businesses. Some did not. Most limited public gatherings and shut down some entertainment venues to contain the spread. Mask wearing was common. The USA largely did not shut down schools. Britain shut down most elementary schools.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, longview said:

There is "absolutely" no justification for draconian lock downs.  Their models were wrong every time.  I read of a report about two computer scientists who looked into the models.  They were outraged by the contrived nature of it.

Which models? Some were very contrived. Others were not. There was a justification. Oddly now that the lockdowns are largely over and people are acting as if there is no danger we see cases rising. There is more danger now than when the "draconian" measures were taken. Where did that false narrative come from?

[bluebell]

In our ward masks were required, there were no hymnals so we had to use our phones when singing, and the bread was spaced out on the trays so that no pieces were touching, and parents had to hand the bread and water to their kids rather than have the kids take it themselves.  There was also a separate tray just for the used water cups.

The Deacons also sanitized their hands (a member of the bishopric sprayed them down with some stuff) before they did the bread and then again before they did the water.

No fast and testimony meeting, we had to speakers.  No one had to wear a mask at the pulpit but the pulpit was sanitized between each person who used it.

[juliann]

14 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I like it because Karen is the name of one of my ex-fiancees but I will avoid it in future.

Ha, thank you for the appropriate response (which we can always expect from you on these topics). It is sexist  and allows misogynists to use it as an excuse to safely vomit the usual labels and insults about women.

[Tacenda]

Who wants to move to New Zealand with me? Their leader who is former member of the church, is amazing. https://www.axios.com/new-zealand-no-coronavirus-cases-covid-19-free-1f209ae3-46e5-4343-b076-189bde8c3953.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=onhrs&fbclid=IwAR1JbIYcGogbCG8yaAiqZ6aFwf6t68HKovH_yQP7xaMq7nZp1cYk2YpkWYg

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, juliann said:

Ha, thank you for the appropriate response (which we can always expect from you on these topics). It is sexist  and allows misogynists to use it as an excuse to safely vomit the usual labels and insults about women.

I have seen almost as many guys called a "Karen" as women so I am not convinced it is a gendered thing. Probably should have picked a name that is more gender-neutral though but calling them an "Alex" just doesn't sound right.

[juliann]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I have seen almost as many guys called a "Karen" as women so I am not convinced it is a gendered thing. Probably should have picked a name that is more gender-neutral though but calling them an "Alex" just doesn't sound right.

Analyze that a bit. Is that much different than using "you (whatever) like a girl?" Or calling a guy the p word? The very fact that a female name/attribute is applied to a male is supposed to be an insult. Also, what is being alleged? Look at the insults. What have women traditionally been called? Annoying, bossy, pushy, demanding when its not their place.....it is a misogynist's playbook made to look cool and funny to continue the same ol' same ol'.  If in doubt, notice that a woman's appearance is also brought into it, Karen as a "look."  Of course. 

[provoman]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Who wants to move to New Zealand with me? Their leader who is former member of the church, is amazing. https://www.axios.com/new-zealand-no-coronavirus-cases-covid-19-free-1f209ae3-46e5-4343-b076-189bde8c3953.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=onhrs&fbclid=IwAR1JbIYcGogbCG8yaAiqZ6aFwf6t68HKovH_yQP7xaMq7nZp1cYk2YpkWYg

notbsure how much it was a leader or the general population of New Zealand. As I understand it EVERYONE received 80% of their wage - provided by the government - while the lock down is/was ongoing. By comparison, Michigan, has been in near constant battle with itself due to political parties.

 

But, I suspect if every person in the US was receiving 80% of their annual wage directly from the government suring our red, orange, and yellow phases...then I suspect there would not be so mich anger about the measures taken.

[Amulek]

9 hours ago, Ratbag said:

It's amazing just how many supposedly awake members drink the kool-aid shoveled out by the lamestream media. 

For what it's worth, I gave up watching pretty much any/all news a few years ago, and I'm still about as woke as it gets.  

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, provoman said:

notbsure how much it was a leader or the general population of New Zealand.

The direction Ardern chose to take made, imo, a difference to getting the people to support the effort. She was honest and open. Being able to trust your leader is huge.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/jacinda-ardern-new-zealand-leadership-coronavirus/610237/

Quote

Jacinda Ardern, the 39-year-old prime minister of New Zealand, is forging a path of her own. Her leadership style is one of empathy in a crisis that tempts people to fend for themselves. Her messages are clear, consistent, and somehow simultaneously sobering and soothing. And her approach isn’t just resonating with her people on an emotional level. It is also working remarkably well.

People feel that Ardern “doesn’t preach at them; she’s standing with them,” Helen Clark, New Zealand’s prime minister from 1999 to 2008, told me. (Ardern, a fellow member of the Labour Party, got her start in politics working for Clark during her premiership.) “They may even think, Well, I don’t quite understand why [the government] did that, but I know she’s got our back. There’s a high level of trust and confidence in her because of that empathy.”...

One of Ardern’s innovations has been frequent Facebook Live chats that manage to be both informal and informative. During a session conducted in late March, just as New Zealand prepared to go on lockdown, she appeared in a well-worn sweatshirt at her home (she had just put her toddler daughterto bed, she explained) to offer guidance “as we all prepare to hunker down.”

She sympathized with how alarming it must have been to hear the “loud honk” that had preceded the emergency alert message all New Zealanders had just received essentially informing them that life as they knew it was temporarily over. She introduced helpful concepts, such as thinking of “the people [who] will be in your life consistently over this period of time” as your “bubble” and “acting as though you already have COVID-19” toward those outside of your bubble. She justified severe policies with practical examples: People needed to stay local, because what if they drove off to some remote destination and their car broke down? She said she knows as a parent that it’s really hard to avoid playgrounds, but the virus can live on surfaces for 72 hours.

She expected the lockdown to last for several weeks, Ardern said, and for cases to rise steeply even as New Zealanders began holing up in their homes. Because of how the coronavirus behaves, “we won’t see the positive benefits of all of the effort you are about to put in for self-isolation … for at least 10 days. So don’t be disheartened,” she said....

She doesn’t peddle in misinformation; she doesn’t blame-shift; she tries to manage everyone’s expectations at the same time [as] she offers reassuring notes,” Van Jackson, an international-relations scholar at Victoria University of Wellington and a former Defense Department official during the Obama administration, wrote to me in an email. “She uses the bully pulpit to cue society toward our better angels—‘Be kind to each other’ and that kind of thing. I think that’s more important than people realize and does trickle down into local attitudes.”

Also https://theconversation.com/three-reasons-why-jacinda-arderns-coronavirus-response-has-been-a-masterclass-in-crisis-leadership-135541

I think everyone can learn from her when it comes to leadership and interaction with others.  Not everyone will feel comfortable shifting fully to her style and I think her being comfortable with people is an essential part of her style, but still might find ways to adapt her approach into theirs.

Quote

The Mayfields’ research-based model highlights “direction-giving”, “meaning-making” and “empathy” as the three key things leaders must address to motivate followers to give their best. 

Being a public motivator is essential for leaders – but it’s often done poorly. The Mayfields’ research shows direction-giving is typically over-used, while the other two elements are under-used. 

Ardern’s response to COVID-19 uses all three approaches. In directing New Zealanders to “stay home to save lives”, she simultaneously offers meaning and purpose to what we are being asked to do. 

In freely acknowledging the challenges we face in staying home – from disrupted family and work lives, to people unable to attend loved ones’ funerals – she shows empathy about what is being asked of us.

Precovid:

https://www.afr.com/work-and-careers/leaders/six-leadership-lessons-from-jacinda-ardern-20190719-p528rg

Edited June 8, 2020 by Calm

[The Nehor]

47 minutes ago, juliann said:

Analyze that a bit. Is that much different than using "you (whatever) like a girl?" Or calling a guy the p word? The very fact that a female name/attribute is applied to a male is supposed to be an insult. Also, what is being alleged? Look at the insults. What have women traditionally been called? Annoying, bossy, pushy, demanding when its not their place.....it is a misogynist's playbook made to look cool and funny to continue the same ol' same ol'.  If in doubt, notice that a woman's appearance is also brought into it, Karen as a "look."  Of course. 

You're probably right. I just hate to get rid of it because it is so useful in applying to racists of both genders with what is going on. Triggers beautiful meltdowns.

[longview]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

- - - There is more danger now than when the "draconian" measures were taken. - - -

In the summer?  Oh wow!  Common sense would point to a precipitous reduction in the rate of infection.  Sounds like an overbearing desire for stoking hysteria as much as possible.  For prolonging economic disruptions as much as possible, long as possible.

People getting outside and soaking in the sunshine and invigorating their bodies more should free them from the stranglehold.  It will have a cleansing effect.  The protesters, looters and anarchists will testify to that.

On the other hand, the fearful people will remain cocooned in their restricted space.  Possibly keeping the virus safely sequestered.  A negative mindset will degrade biological vitality.

Just let nature take its course from now on.  No more lock downs.  Please!

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, longview said:

Common sense would point to a precipitous reduction in the rate of infection. 

Let's hope 'common sense' matches reality.  It often doesn't.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Calm

[pogi]

40 minutes ago, longview said:

In the summer?  Oh wow!  Common sense would point to a precipitous reduction in the rate of infection.  Sounds like an overbearing desire for stoking hysteria as much as possible.  For prolonging economic disruptions as much as possible, long as possible.

People getting outside and soaking in the sunshine and invigorating their bodies more should free them from the stranglehold.  It will have a cleansing effect.  The protesters, looters and anarchists will testify to that.

On the other hand, the fearful people will remain cocooned in their restricted space.  Possibly keeping the virus safely sequestered.  A negative mindset will degrade biological vitality.

Just let nature take its course from now on.  No more lock downs.  Please!

I think everyone is figuring out how to live with this in a sustainable way long-term.  Long-term lock-downs are not sustainable, and I don't think anyone is calling for that.

Where do you live?  It's probably safer to trust the statistics of confirmed cases over your "common sense".  Your common sense is dead wrong and it is reckless for you to be telling people to worry less right now.  If anything, we should be taking even more precautions because numbers are spiking, and restrictions are being loosened, large mass gatherings of protesters singing and shouting, and church with singing etc.  

Here in Utah, we have never seen higher numbers (yes, despite the sunshine and above average temperatures).  They are getting so high that we are having to adjust how we perform contact tracing.  We don't have enough staff to keep up with the numbers so we are adjusting our efforts - not going to be as thorough in our protocols.  That is bad news!  That means higher numbers and less containment.  Seems like your hot weather and getting out more isn't helping. 

https://coronavirus.utah.gov/case-counts/

Scroll down to the graph named " confirmed Covid 19 cases" and tell me what kind of trend you see.  Note that those numbers over the last few days are not yet fully reported either.  If anything, the high numbers seem to be associated with high temps. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by pogi

[pogi]

30 minutes ago, longview said:

Sounds like an overbearing desire for stoking hysteria as much as possible.  For prolonging economic disruptions as much as possible, long as possible.

Yes, it's all a conspiracy to boost mask sales at the expense of the entire economy 

[longview]

24 minutes ago, pogi said:

Scroll down to the graph named " confirmed Covid 19 cases" and tell me what kind of trend you see.  Note that those numbers over the last few days are not yet fully reported either.  If anything, the high numbers seem to be associated with high temps. 

The "technicians" have a lot to answer for.  They should NOT be lumping co-morbidity statistics.  Their testing protocols may be inaccurate to some significant degree.

24 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, it's all a conspiracy to boost mask sales at the expense of the entire economy 

[longview]

48 minutes ago, Calm said:

Let's hope 'common sense' matches reality.  It often doesn't.

If by "often" you mean more than 30% of the time then it would NOT be common sense.  It would call for "hedging your bets."

[pogi]

1 hour ago, longview said:

The "technicians" have a lot to answer for.  They should NOT be lumping co-morbidity statistics.  Their testing protocols may be inaccurate to some significant degree.

This is a graph of daily confirmed cases in Utah.  Co-morbidities have no bearing on whether someone tests positive or not.  Number are spiking!  

Your argument is commonly used by doubters in questioning death rates.  We are not talking about death rates here.  

 

Edited out uncivil language.  I am sorry. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by pogi

[pogi]

1 hour ago, longview said:

.

The “mind control” devise is more to help reduce droplets/aerosols from being transmitted to others, since we don’t all have access to the other.   Also, a properly fitted N95 mask and goggles would do the trick, but if you have the other space-helmet-looking-thingy, sweet!
 

Edited June 8, 2020 by pogi

[Calm]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

We don't have enough staff to keep up with the numbers so we are adjusting our efforts - not going to be as thorough in our protocols.  That is bad news!  That means higher numbers and less containment.  Seems like your hot weather and getting out more isn't helping. 

Ach...didn't want to hear that.