What Can the Church do to Promote Anti-racism in America?

[Meadowchik]

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Again, I reject the use of mob violence and looting as a means of affecting political change.

Thanks,

-Smac

Again, there are thousands upon thousands of peaceful protesters. Their grievances are valid.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Meadowchik

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Again, there are thousands upon thousands of peaceful protesters. Their grievances are valid.

Again, you are indulging in armchair quarterbacking.

If police have a way of maintaining/restoring law and order, of stopping the mob violence and looting, they would do it.  Peaceful protests happen all the time in this country, usually with police on hand to ensure that things don't get out of hand.

Now, however, we have riots.  Mob violence.  Looting.  The rule of law has been lost in some areas.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Meadowchik]

It would be wonderful for example, to see a church guidebook for promoting good anti-racist rhetoric and organisation on social media. Certainly there are countless church members who could be effective, especially when following thoughtful, responsible models for good communication.

[Meadowchik]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Again, you are indulging in armchair quarterbacking.

If police have a way of maintaining/restoring law and order, of stopping the mob violence and looting, they would do it.  Peaceful protests happen all the time in this country, usually with police on hand to ensure that things don't get out of hand.

Now, however, we have riots.  Mob violence.  Looting.  The rule of law has been lost in some areas.

Thanks,

-Smac

I am addressing your terrible claim that no systemic change can or should occur until rioting and violence ends. That is utter nonsense. Both can be addressed simultaneously.

 

[smac97]

25 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I am addressing your terrible claim that no systemic change can or should occur until rioting and violence ends. That is utter nonsense.

It's neither terrible nor nonsense.  It's simple reality. 

25 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Both can be addressed simultaneously.

Systemic change takes time.  And legislative and judicial and executive effort.  And discussion.  

Mob violence and looting are not legitimate forms of behavior.  

Edited June 2, 2020 by smac97

[rodheadlee]

Hey Nehor would you go to Long Beach and pick up my watermaker motor for me. I really don't want to go. 

[Meadowchik]

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

No.  Systemic change takes time.  And legislative and judicial and executive effort.  And discussion.  

Mob violence and looting are not legitimate forms of behavior.  

It sounded to me that you were saying that no legislative, judicial, and executive effort or discussion can take place during times of mob violence or looting:

"I'm all for discussing proposals to improve the system.  Before that, however, the rioting and the looting need to stop." -SMAC

I very much disagree. For example, the First Presidency and other leaders of all kinds can release a joint statement condemning the POTUS inflammatory speech and threats. Such joint effort could go a long way to calming nationwide tensions and open up a path for BOTH discussions and reduced mayhem.

[smac97]

15 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

It sounded to me that you were saying that no legislative, judicial, and executive effort or discussion can take place during times of mob violence or looting:

Yes, that is what I am saying.  Legislatures cannot perform their duties while riots and looting and anarchy prevails on the streets of our cities.  I invite you to consider why this is so.

Quote

"I'm all for discussing proposals to improve the system.  Before that, however, the rioting and the looting need to stop." -SMAC

Yes.  That is so.  Changing the law takes time.  And it needs to happen legislatively, not at the proverbial end of a gun (under threats of continued mob violence and looting).

I mean, let's get real.  Are you seriously suggesting that state legislatures can meet, formulate changes and additions to statutory codes, debate and modify and finalize those changes, submit them to the executive, etc., while mobbers and looters are running rampant in the streets of our cities?  When police are being shot and rammed by vehicles?  When synagogues are being defaced, businesses destroyed and stolen from, and so on?

Quote

I very much disagree. For example, the First Presidency and other leaders of all kinds can release a joint statement condemning the POTUS inflammatory speech and threats.

This is an unserious suggestion.

Quote

Such joint effort could go a long way to calming nationwide tensions and open up a path for BOTH discussions and reduced mayhem.

More armchair quarterbacking.

The rule of law needs to be re-instated.  The extra-legal mob violence and looting needs to stop.  That is the first order of business.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited June 2, 2020 by smac97

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Cannot PM you.

Here's the police for the MPD:

https://go.mpdconline.com/GO/SOP_16_01.pdf

It looks like there is tremendous leeway for crowd dispersal when it is civil disobedience in the form of blocking traffic. I have not read that protesters were blocking entrance to the church. 

Thank you. 

[Kenngo1969]

https://www.deseret.com/u-s-world/2020/6/2/21277917/death-toll-george-floyd-protests-riots-officers-protesters

[smac97]

1 minute ago, Kenngo1969 said:

https://www.deseret.com/u-s-world/2020/6/2/21277917/death-toll-george-floyd-protests-riots-officers-protesters

From the article:

Quote

One man was the beloved owner of a Louisville barbecue restaurant who made sure to provide free meals to officers. Another was a man known as “Mr. Indianapolis,” a former star football player. Yet another was a federal officer working security during a protest.

They are among the people who have been killed as protests roiled American cities in the week since 46-year-old George Floyd died when a white officer jammed his knee into the back of the black man’s neck.

The deaths have at times been overshadowed by the shocking images of chaos engulfing cities across America, from violence, vandalism and arson to heavy-handed riot police tactics. Tens of thousands have marched peacefully in demonstrations against police brutality and racism.

Many of the people killed were African Americans, compounding the tragedy for black families to lose more members of their community amid the unrest.

Dozens more have been hurt in various altercations — vehicles plowing into crowds, police officers suffering head injuries and broken bones and protesters ending up in emergency rooms with a variety of injuries from the melees.

I am flummoxed that people in this thread are defending/rationalizing/excusing/condoning/endorsing behavior that is resulting in the deaths of private citizens, many of whom "were African Americans."

Folks, please reconsider your position relative to mob violence and looting.  Peaceful protests are a wonderful thing, and nobody is suggesting otherwise.  But we cannot endorse or condone extralegal violence.  The rule of law is a beautiful, but fragile, thing.  It takes a lot of effort to maintain it.  

The mob violence and looting need to end.  Let the legal system do its thing.  If appropriate, and once things have calmed down, we can look at changing or adding to statutes and other laws that govern how police interact with civilians.  But the violence and looting need to stop. 

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

17 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

That sounds like another worthy agenda that could use organizing by interested private parties like the church. Police officers are legally charged to decide when to kill other people! They should get more training than barbers!

This is an unserious and irresponsible thing to say.  Law enforcement officers receive extensive and ongoing training.

The animosity being expressed toward law enforcement is disturbing.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Meadowchik]

 

10 minutes ago, smac97 said:

This is an unserious suggestion.

This thread is about what the church can do to promote anti-racism in America. A First Presidency statement stronger than the one just released, specifically calling on the POTUS to set the example of good behavior is not unreasonable, nor is it unfeasible. It's an ideal time for such a declaration, and such declarations are needed in heated moments like this.

I've also added examples of other churches more long-term approaches to anti-racist community activism. There's plenty of good material and models to consider and possibly adapt.

[smac97]

A few more updates:

Video shows NYPD cop being attacked by several men in the Bronx

Quote

An NYPD officer was attacked by several men in the Bronx Monday night as onlookers recording the struggle egged on the suspects.

The footage, which was tweeted by the city’s Sergeants Benevolent Association, shows two men forcefully toss an unknown object at an officer who’s on the ground struggling with somebody else.

After the second man attacks, the man tussling with the cop runs free, the video shows.

The officer, appearing dazed, gets up after the group flees and immediately draws his gun, but doesn’t appear to point it toward anyone in particular, according to the video.
...
The incident occurred as police on Monday night struggled to contain roving gangs of young looters in Manhattan.

Amid the mayhem, another officer was injured on Madison Avenue, according to footage posted to Twitter by Fox News correspondent Bryan Llenas.

The video showed an officer sprawled face-down on the sidewalk as another cops comes to his side with a bottle of water.

Along with posting the video, the SBA wrote of the officer involved, “I guess the critics will now say he overreacted. NYPD Cops defend yourselves, you are alone!”

Law enforcement need our support.  And where an individual officer does something wrong, he needs to be held accountable.

White nationalist group posing as antifa called for violence on Twitter

Quote

A Twitter account claiming to belong to a national “antifa” organization and pushing violent rhetoric related to ongoing protests has been linked to the white nationalist group Identity Evropa, according to a Twitter spokesperson.

The spokesperson said the account violated the company's platform manipulation and spam policy, specifically the creation of fake accounts. Twitter suspended the account after a tweet that incited violence.

As protests were taking place in multiple states across the U.S. Sunday night, the newly created account, @ANTIFA_US, tweeted, “Tonight’s the night, Comrades,” with a brown raised fist emoji and “Tonight we say 'F--- The City' and we move into the residential areas... the white hoods.... and we take what's ours …”

White supremacists are stoking violence by pretending to be Antifa.  Because everyone knows Antifa is ironically names, and resorts to violence all the time.

Quite an indictment of both groups, eh?

Again, I ask those of you who are excusing/rationalizing/justifying/endorsing/condoning mob violence and looting to reconsider your position.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

34 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

It sounded to me that you were saying that no legislative, judicial, and executive effort or discussion can take place during times of mob violence or looting:

"I'm all for discussing proposals to improve the system.  Before that, however, the rioting and the looting need to stop." -SMAC

I very much disagree. For example, the First Presidency and other leaders of all kinds can release a joint statement condemning the POTUS inflammatory speech and threats. Such joint effort could go a long way to calming nationwide tensions and open up a path for BOTH discussions and reduced mayhem.

Politics

[Meadowchik]

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

This is an unserious and irresponsible thing to say.  Law enforcement officers receive extensive and ongoing training.

The animosity being expressed toward law enforcement is disturbing.

Thanks,

-Smac

This is completely serious and factual. I recommend you do some research. Inadequate training does no favor to police officers nor the communities they serve. They should also be paid well for better qualifications to attract and keep competent public servants.

This is yet another worthy agenda that the church can join in on with other private community organisations, many do.

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Quote

This is an unserious suggestion.

This thread is about what the church can do to promote anti-racism in America. A First Presidency statement stronger than the one just released, specifically calling on the POTUS to set the example of good behavior is not unreasonable, nor is it unfeasible.

It is manifestly and obviously unreasonable.  Nothing but.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Meadowchik]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Politics

I very much disagree. For example, the First Presidency and other leaders of all kinds can release a joint statement condemning the POTUS inflammatory speech and threats. Such joint effort could go a long way to calming nationwide tensions and open up a path for BOTH discussions and reduced mayhem.

This is in line with the thread topic.

[smac97]

Just now, Meadowchik said:

This is completely serious and factual.

It is neither.

Just now, Meadowchik said:

I recommend you do some research. Inadequate training does no favor to police officers nor the communities they serve.

You said police officers "should get more training than barbers!" 

That is an unserious and uninformed claim.

Just now, Meadowchik said:

They should also be paid well for better qualifications to attract and keep competent public servants.

This is yet another worthy agenda that the church can join in on with other private community organisations, many do.

Before any such discussions take place, the mob violence and looting must stop.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I very much disagree. For example, the First Presidency and other leaders of all kinds can release a joint statement condemning the POTUS inflammatory speech and threats. Such joint effort could go a long way to calming nationwide tensions and open up a path for BOTH discussions and reduced mayhem.

This is in line with the thread topic.

It’s blatantly political, notwithstanding. 

[Storm Rider]

15 hours ago, bluebell said:

I had a post written but it got deleted and I don't have the time (or desire) to write it again.  I can suggest studying chattel slavery, which was unique to the New World, and also suggest this link for a very (very) simple summary.

And I'll quickly point out that no one ignores the fact that Africans aided Europeans and Americans in the slave trade, it's just that it's irrelevant to any discussion on racism, slavery, and the United States.  Africa (like every other continent and region in the world) had a long history of slavery before whites showed up, but as has already been said, it was a different type of slavery.  Unlike in America, it was not at all based on race or the perceived inferiority of the individual.  Slaves in African societies had rights, they could marry, their children were not slaves, and often they were eventually able to become regular members of their societies.  

You asked why African Americans can't just let it go, why they still struggle so much compared to other races that also deal with racism.  America's history of slavery is why.  

Don't you get frustrated when you fill out a response, often quite lengthy, and ZAP, it gets deleted. It is so deflating - I have often just given up on commenting on that thread when it happens. 

Having studied Chattel Slavery and read your link (thank you for providing), I still am not seeing that blacks were targeted to be slaves first and foremost because they were black. What I got out of your cited link, particularly, is that of a creation of reasoning as to why slaves existed. The reality was they had slaves already and were looking for a reason for them to remain as slaves. 

"America's history of slavery is why?" Can you name another country in the world that went to civil war to free their slaves? No - it does not exist. YET, slavery has and continues to exist. That reason makes no sense and is not logical at all. 

[Meadowchik]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

It is manifestly and obviously unreasonable.  Nothing but.

Thanks,

-Smac

No, it is not. 

American churches have spoken up to the POTUS before: 

Quote

 

More than 800 Christian leaders are calling on President Donald Trump to honor the tenets of his professed faith ahead of Thursday’s National Prayer Breakfast.

The religious leaders signed a letter, shared with The Huffington Post on Wednesday, reminding the president that Christians are called to “protect the downtrodden” and “the migrant.”

“The Gospel is not about prosperity, but Good News for the poor. In them, we encounter Christ,” the letter states.

 

Others are doing so now:

Quote

 

In case you don't fully understand what happened this evening at the White House:
From Gina Gerbesi, a priest at St John's Episcopal, Lafayette Square, this horrible account:

“Friends, I am ok, but I am, frankly, shaken. I was at St. John's, Lafayette Square, most of the afternoon, with fellow clergy and laypeople -- and clergy from some other denominations too. We were passing out water and snacks, and helping the patio area at St. John's, Lafayette Square, to be a place of respite and peace. All was well -- with a few little tense moments -- until about 6:15 or so. By then, I had connected with the Black Lives Matter medic team, which was headed by an EMT. Those people were AMAZING. They had been on the patio all day, and thankfully had not had to use much of the eyewash they had made.

Around 6:15 or 6:30, the police started really pushing protestors off of H Street (the street between the church and Lafayette Park, and ultimately, the White House. They started using tear gas and folks were running at us for eyewashes or water or wet paper towels. At this point, Julia, one of our seminarians for next year (who is a trauma nurse), and I looked at each other in disbelief. I was coughing, her eyes were watering, and we were trying to help people as the police -- in full riot gear -- drove people toward us. Julia and her classmates left, and I stayed with the BLM folks trying to help people. Suddenly, around 6:30, there was more tear gas, more concussion grenades, and I think I saw someone hit by a rubber bullet -- he was grasping his stomach and there was a mark on his shirt. The police in their riot gear were literally walking onto the St. John's, Lafayette Square, patio with these metal shields, pushing people off the patio and driving them back. People were running at us as the police advanced toward us from the other side of the patio. We had to try to pick up what we could. The BLM medic folks were obviously well practiced. They picked up boxes and ran. I was so stunned I only got a few water bottles and my spray bottle of eyewash. We were literally DRIVEN OFF of the St. John's, Lafayette Square, patio with tear gas and concussion grenades and police in full riot gear. We were pushed back 20 feet, and then eventually -- with SO MANY concussion grenades -- back to K street. By the time I got back to my car around 7, I was getting texts from people saying that Trump was outside of St. John's, Lafayette Square.

I literally COULD NOT believe it. WE WERE DRIVEN OFF OF THE PATIO AT ST. JOHN'S -- a place of peace and respite and medical care throughout the day -- SO THAT MAN COULD HAVE A PHOTO OPPORTUNITY IN FRONT OF THE CHURCH!!! PEOPLE WERE HURT SO THAT HE COULD POSE IN FRONT OF THE CHURCH WITH A BIBLE! HE WOULD HAVE HAD TO STEP OVER THE MEDICAL SUPPLIES WE LEFT BEHIND BECAUSE WE WERE BEING TEAR GASSED!!!!

I am deeply shaken. I did not see any protestors throw anything until the tear gas and concussion grenades started, and then it was mostly water bottles. I am shaken, not so much by the taste of tear gas and the bit of a cough I still have, but by the fact that that show of force was for a PHOTO OPPORTUNITY. The patio of St. John's, Lafayette Square, had been HOLY GROUND today, a place of respite and laughter and water and granola bars and fruit snacks. But that man turned it into a BATTLE GROUND first, and a cheap political stunt second. I am DEEPLY OFFENDED on behalf of every protestor, every Christian, the people of St. John's, Lafayette Square, every decent person there, and the BLM medics who stayed with just a single box of supplies and a backpack, even when I got too scared and had to leave. I am ok. But I am now a force to be reckoned with."

 

 

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Again, there are thousands upon thousands of peaceful protesters. Their grievances are valid.

If we've learned anything from this episode (as though this is the first opportunity we've had to learn anything from "peaceful"-protests-cum-riots ), it doesn't take much for a peaceful protest to devolve into a senseless orgy of rioting, arson, vandalism, and looting.  Any "peaceful" protest that is not carefully managed will be co-opted by opportunists who couldn't care less about protestors' cause(s) or grievance(s) (however legitimate they may be), seeing the "protest" far less as an opportunity to air legitimate grievances than as an opportunity to engage in simple, naked, unchecked lawlessness.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Kenngo1969

[smac97]

1 minute ago, Meadowchik said:

No, it is not. 

Yes, it is.  It is quite unreasonable.

1 minute ago, Meadowchik said:

American churches have spoken up to the POTUS before: 

I'm much happier with the Church staying as apolitical as possible.  

I can't help but wonder whether you were as keen on Church leaders publicly calling out POTUS when Barack Obama was in the White House.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Meadowchik]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

You said police officers "should get more training than barbers!" 

That is an unserious and uninformed claim.

Have you even checked?

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/28/us/jobs-training-police-trnd/index.html