CV75 Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 2 hours ago, Rain said: I agree with this however we have to be aware of something. When you don't feel safe, when you have rarely or never felt safe it will be extremely difficult to stay "positive". In order for this to work we need to really listen to the cries of those who have been hurt all of their lives. We need to be ok with the idea that they will express anger and frustration. We need to be able to try to put ourselves in their places and not assume we have actually been able to do that because all of our past and all of their past colors how we will see the experiences they have. We need to be ok with not arguing against them, not excusing ourselves. Not interjecting "not every __________". Just listen empathically. I say "just" with a grain of salt because it has become so clear to me that like Steven Covey says, few people do it. Then after we make it safe by empathically listening then it can be our turn. And then we can start to be more "positive". Absolutely -- never pressure those who are fearful and suffering to share (that was in the finer details of what I summarized), and at some point they may feel safe enough to participate. And there are ways on an intimate level (this is part of reaching out when injured) to get to a point of feeling safe enough to participate. One woman I know won't watch the news or have these discussions with her own family because she is trying to heal first, and is getting one-on-one help to do that. 2
bsjkki Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 Listen to her. https://twitter.com/SinghManSpeak/status/1267904960026607619?s=20 1
The Nehor Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 7 minutes ago, bsjkki said: So, one question. Do you believe the violence, looting and assaults are justified at this time? If you are demanding a simple yes or no then the answer is no. I do accept that it is pretty much inevitable as part of the protesters I do support because the vultures will descend. I also do not accept that narrative that the protesters and the more violent/looty hanger-ons that are with them are inciting all the violence or assault and I have plenty of footage to back it up. I also do not accept the simple formula that if the peaceful protesters stop the violence and looting will stop therefore they should stop. They are not responsible for the more violent attendants or the more violent cops or their leaders that escalate violence. People forget that the latter is what the protest is primarily about. This situation forces it into the light with most of the country and a lot of the world watching. I admit I do support some of the vandalism though. Two more Confederate monuments went down as of this morning. A few days ago protesters took and burned a Daughters of the Confederacy building. This destroyed Stonewall Jackson's Confederate battle flag and a lot of historical documents. I am sad about their loss but I also go with Indiana Jones and say they belonged in a museum or archive. If you choose to hoard them as vanity display items in your 'wives of KKK members' social club that is an obvious bastion of racism the loss is kind of on you too. 18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: There’s an image I saw on the news a couple of days ago that sticks in my mind. It shows people standing outside their businesses with assault rifles and other firearms ready to fend off the looters, arsonists and vandals. If these mobs are going to bring their violence into the suburbs, and local government/law enforcement are unable/unwilling to stop them, I won’t stand by and watch them threaten or harm my family or destroy what I’ve labored a lifetime to build. Were those the militia gangs dressed in paramilitary gear? A lot of them were "guarding" buildings far away from the actual protests. This is the footage that made me afraid for people in their homes. These were not protesters. These were the people living in the house. There was no lawful reason the people had to be inside. Light'em up!!!!!! Now would you rather face a couple dozen unarmed young men and women seeking justice or that? That ammunition they used could easily have killed someone or put out an eye. Four people have lost eyes from those bullets. And a guy getting sprayed with tear gas inside of his house for looking out the window: (second video): Militarizing the police was a terrible idea. Our idea of the ideal cop has morphed. Once it was the steady kind but steely-eyed, soft and reassuring voiced Andy Griffith type who is reasonable and you can see deescalating almost any situation while also knowing he could take you down quickly if he had to with an utmost respect for the law. Sees himself as a servant of the people but also understands his responsibility. Now in the media we glorify the 'plays by his own rules' cop where the IA department is always the villain holding back the good cop with red tape, procedure, and their ridiculous "don't torture the suspect" restrictions. Mixed with a dose of realism and compassion the latter gives you a dangerous cop. If your force becomes staffed with insecure bullies who want power and see a badge as a way to coerce respect and deference and you end up with riots in the streets. Oh, and if you are not depressed enough here is a short piece on militarization of cops and how we are conditioning them to kill the way we do soldiers: 1
alter idem Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 5 minutes ago, stemelbow said: uh. I"m concerned how far afield from reality your imagination is taking this. If you're in the SLC area, by the time anyone made it out to the suburbs there'd likely be two or three and they'd likely only really be wanting a drink of water or a ride home. Nobody's out to get you. They've marched around SLC a bit. A handful of them threw over a car on Saturday and caused other damages. They were mostly young white dudes who wanted to wreak havoc for the sake or wreaking it. my family and I went Saturday. It was a peaceful affair. We left before the mayhem which was really tame compared to other places. I don't think there's anything to fear. I'm not sure if it's right to be so dismissive. It's the psychology of it that is dangerous. If people feel their loved ones could be threatened by out of control mobs, they will feel they need guns to protect them. I have friends and family who live very close to downtown, they were afraid and I was for them, especially because of the curfew which kept them locked down in their homes for two days. They could smell the smoke. I think the concerns were justified considering what's happening in other areas of the country. Lucky for us if our local government and police can keep this under control. 1
smac97 Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 4 minutes ago, bsjkki said: Listen to her. https://twitter.com/SinghManSpeak/status/1267904960026607619?s=20 59 seconds of the most sense I've heard I'll day! Meanwhile, let's take a look at who in the world is cheering on the rioters/looters: Quote Iran, Russia, China, Turkey celebrate 'collapse' of US The goal of these countries during the current US crisis is to use it to their advantage to achieve gains. Authoritarian regimes throughout the world are pushing narratives that appear to gloat over and celebrate that chaos unfolding in the United States. On Monday, Iran’s media pushed stories that highlighted the “collapse,” while quoting Russian sources portraying that the US is flailing about as its world order comes crashing down. Iran, Russia, China, and Turkey do not have the best interests of America at heart. And they are cheering on the mob violence and looting. Food for thought. Thanks, -Smac 1
The Nehor Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 9 minutes ago, alter idem said: This is not war, we are not fighting a civil war, yet. Can you spread that around? A lot of people never got the memo.
cherryTreez Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 28 minutes ago, bsjkki said: This has killed 2A arguments. The lines at gun stores are long today. The social contract broke and people do not believe the police will be there to protect them. Gun sales also sky rocketed in March. People buy guns when they are scared. It's human psychology/cause/effect. I was shocked when I searched 'gun store lines' on twitter. There is no ammo anywhere either. It's scary. I know people who have started reloading ammo because of this.
Ahab Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 7 minutes ago, alter idem said: This is not war, we are not fighting a civil war, yet. I'm not fighting in that war that is going on out there, but yes that is truly a war. Technically. Are you waiting for someone in particular to declare that it is a war before you will believe that it is a war? Would you at least admit that there are people out there causing a civil disturbance? Using violent methods? And that some other people are out there trying to stop them? Also using violent methods, sometimes?
bsjkki Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I do accept that it is pretty much inevitable as part of the protesters I do support because the vultures will descend. Take the protest to your own neighborhoods then so they quit burning down black neighborhoods and businesses.
The Nehor Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 55 minutes ago, Islander said: I had to laugh...It is a good one, though. The broader context in the passage is, however, that Moroni is executing a legitimate war against the enemies of the state and the people. And he wonders if Pahoran is being derelict and thus treasonous against the cause of the people, by neglecting to support the war efforts. In Alma 60:5-9 he makes a pretty passionate pitch and argument for his thoughts and feelings about the government of the land during the war. It is rather a forceful exhortaation to Pahoran to do his duty. I think it is a totally different issue. So you are arguing that if the Joint Chiefs are unhappy with the President's decisions and support they can with moral and legal authority march the military home and stir up insurrections against the President and Congress until the government and everyone who supported it are extinct? That is the equivalent of what Moroni was saying he would do. I was not presenting it as a comparable situation. I am presenting it as a MUCH MORE EXTREME situation compared to which this current rioting is very small potatoes. If you can swallow the camel of what Moroni proposed it why are you straining at the gnat that are these protests?
Ahab Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, cherryTreez said: There is no ammo anywhere either. It's scary. I know people who have started reloading ammo because of this. That's what I like about baseball bats. No worries about running out of ammo.
cherryTreez Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 Just now, Ahab said: That's what I like about baseball bats. No worries about running out of ammo. I will take my dog. Not many people could take him on when he is in defense. He is 130 pounds of pure muscle. He is bred to take down people. I don't worry too much. I do have my own 7 plus one ways of stopping people.
The Nehor Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 36 minutes ago, bsjkki said: This has killed 2A arguments. The lines at gun stores are long today. The social contract broke and people do not believe the police will be there to protect them. Gun sales also sky rocketed in March. People buy guns when they are scared. It's human psychology/cause/effect. I was shocked when I searched 'gun store lines' on twitter. It is a scary situation. This is about the worst time you want scared people with little to no experience with firearms carrying firearms.
stemelbow Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 6 minutes ago, alter idem said: I'm not sure if it's right to be so dismissive. It's the psychology of it that is dangerous. If people feel their loved ones could be threatened by out of control mobs, they will feel they need guns to protect them. I have friends and family who live very close to downtown, they were afraid and I was for them, especially because of the curfew which kept them locked down in their homes for two days. They could smell the smoke. I think the concerns were justified considering what's happening in other areas of the country. Lucky for us if our local government and police can keep this under control. Most people, even those who stayed late, wouldn't hurt a flea. They weren't out of control mobs. There were a small handful of fools who took advantage of the hysteria and that was about it. 98-99 percent were just normal decent people feeling joy, reveling in the support and hoping for a better tomorrow.
The Nehor Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 5 minutes ago, bsjkki said: Take the protest to your own neighborhoods then so they quit burning down black neighborhoods and businesses. Are you under the impression I am telling anyone where to go or what to do?
Ahab Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, cherryTreez said: I will take my dog. Not many people could take him on when he is in defense. He is 130 pounds of pure muscle. He is bred to take down people. I don't worry too much. I do have my own 7 plus one ways of stopping people. Plus I prefer to stay home while trying to stay out of trouble. I've heard people plead that peace loving people go out there in that mess to try to encourage other people to also be peaceful but there is just too much violence and COVID19 out there for me to agree to do that!
bsjkki Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Are you under the impression I am telling anyone where to go or what to do? Well, it seemed you were providing material support so I don't really know how much influence you have.
stemelbow Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: It is a scary situation. This is about the worst time you want scared people with little to no experience with firearms carrying firearms. That hits a little too close to home in SL where some old guy pulled out his bow and arrow to shoot at the protestors. He looked like he didn't know how to handle the thing to me, and appeared a little shaky. I felt bad for him, in spite of his murderous intents. I'm going out a limb and say it wasn't Scott Lloyd.
smac97 Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 This video is interesting: The whole identity politics / intersectionality thing makes this weird. Is a black woman entitled to repeatedly strike a white male police officer in the face while he is performing his lawful duties? Was the black male police officer entitled to strike the black woman to stop her from continuing to assault a fellow police officer? Who gets to decide the rules of engagement here? Thanks, -Smac 2
The Nehor Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 13 minutes ago, smac97 said: 59 seconds of the most sense I've heard I'll day! Meanwhile, let's take a look at who in the world is cheering on the rioters/looters: Iran, Russia, China, and Turkey do not have the best interests of America at heart. And they are cheering on the mob violence and looting. Food for thought. Thanks, -Smac Who cares what they think? I care more about what our NATO allies and the free world think. I see reports on the dangers of police attacking the press, ominous articles about the dangerous rhetoric from American leaders, sarcastic takes on the church photo-op, articles with clips of uplifting moments of unity from the protests, videos of interviews with protesters, and articles on whether the US can shed its racist past. Should we seriously prefer the respect of dictators and autocrats? 1
The Nehor Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 6 minutes ago, bsjkki said: Well, it seemed you were providing material support so I don't really know how much influence you have. Just information collection to get the word out of what is happening and attempt to counter disinformation. I occasionally pass on some information but I have only contacted a protester once and that was a friend. I am not involved with where they go or what they do and they would not listen to me if I tried. I have also let people with supplies know where protesters are and tried to get help to get people rides to get out if needed. Sorry if I gave wrong impression. Mostly it is grabbing videos from streams and when spotting something that could help keep people safe throwing it out and hoping someone who knows someone in the area can pass it on. My first priority is to try to help people stay alive and safe if possible. Second is to organize and curate information to get the news out to the rest of the web in a digestable form. 1
alter idem Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 30 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Can you spread that around? A lot of people never got the memo. There are people who want civil war, they are attempting to destabilize America and destroy our constitutional government, no question. But as far as I know, they haven't come out openly and declared war on those of us who love our country and want to preserve our freedom under the United States of America. If/when they do, it will mean a second civil war. I hope it doesn't come to that, but uncontrolled riots and protests throught out a nation can lead to civil war. As Smac pointed out, we have enemy nations who would like to see just that happen. 2
bluebell Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 44 minutes ago, alter idem said: I also felt your statement was not accurate. To make the statement that blacks are the only people ever enslaved for their race, sounds off. Slavery has been widespread throughout the world, and often one tribe or island, would enslave people not of their tribe or their people. But they didn't enslave them because of their race, they enslaved them because they were defeated in war, and that is the difference. Native American tribes would enslave defeated tribes or villages, even though everyone involved was the same race. This was essentially prisoners of war made into slaves. Much of the time, such slaves could eventually earn their freedom and became a regular part of their new society. Quote Today we see some Muslims enslaving women and children who are Christian and not even of their nation. I think that is a form of racism as well. Enslaving women and children of different races in the sex trade is a problem throughout history and even today. I'm pretty sure these slaves have no rights at all. Yes it's so incredibly sad. It's a form of sexual slavery, that often stems from religious bigotry. They don't enslave the men because the purpose of their slavery doesn't require men. While race can be a supporting issue, the race of the person is not usually the motivating factor for enslavement. It's not the reason they were enslaved. The motivating factor is their gender and their religion.
stemelbow Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 15 minutes ago, smac97 said: This video is interesting: The whole identity politics / intersectionality thing makes this weird. Is a black woman entitled to repeatedly strike a white male police officer in the face while he is performing his lawful duties? Was the black male police officer entitled to strike the black woman to stop her from continuing to assault a fellow police officer? Who gets to decide the rules of engagement here? Thanks, -Smac I don't think that's interesting, smac. WHy do you? Yes, a black woman should be entitled to hit a white male police officer whenever she pleases. Just kidding. I guess we weren't privy to the back story. so your question kind of obscures what we see. "Performing his lawful duties"? He likely was, but perhaps he was not. we don't know what was said or done out of picture. And they could have easily detained the lady without knocking her down like that. But I get the instinct. Quote Who gets to decide the rules of engagement here? The police, of course. And the problem is, as what happened last week in Minnesota, the police decided and some guy was killed as a result. Now we have this mess....It's always nice if those who get to decide the rules are able and willing to play by the rules.
Ahab Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 20 minutes ago, smac97 said: This video is interesting: The whole identity politics / intersectionality thing makes this weird. Why weird? 20 minutes ago, smac97 said: Is a black woman entitled to repeatedly strike a white male police officer in the face while he is performing his lawful duties? No, that is against the law. 20 minutes ago, smac97 said: Was the black male police officer entitled to strike the black woman to stop her from continuing to assault a fellow police officer? Yes, they are legally authorized to use force to stop an attacker from attacking, using reasonable judgement. I was surprised by how little it took to take her down. 20 minutes ago, smac97 said: Who gets to decide the rules of engagement here? Those who make and enforce the laws. 20 minutes ago, smac97 said: Thanks, -Smac You're welcome.
Recommended Posts